Poor-Potential NHL Markets, plain and simple, or victims of the recession, etc.?

[Killion]

You did not even have to look to the US to find such comments. These were commonplace in the Toronto media.

Media Elitism?. The Americanization of Pro Hockey?. Excellent courses being offered at the Balsillie School of International Affairs not far down the road from you their Fourier. I have fond memories of Professor Richard Rodier's lectures; "Rage Against the Machine", "Techno Libertarianism For All Mankind" and the follow-up, "A Blackberry in every Pot".

I'm not "deifying" Balsillie, I'm simply giving him credit for one thing, that's he would almost certainly be an owner who would be passionate about having an NHL franchise.

Sure. Provided it's located in the Elysian Fields of home, bringing in a harvest richer than the fields of QC, Pittsburgh, Nashville, Phoenix......

Do you have some news Headlines (or some other source) from back then to support that claim?

Fraid not. My analyst recommended I drop the internet subscription's to the Toronto Star & Globe&Mail Archival Departments. Something about it being unhealthy if not downright dangerous to drive through life with both eyes on the rear-view mirror. Bad enough I had no hands on the wheel, but thats another story.

 

[He Lied to Mario]

Actually, what seriously boggles the mind is people who believe that Balsillie did not first approach bettman and try to do this 'the right way', and play nice with the evil dwarf. I mean seriously, you don't think Balsillie initially tried to play by the rules to get his team? And as soon as he was laughed out of bettmans office by both bettman and mlse, what was he to do? Both bettman and mlse hate Hamilton with a passion. It doesn't matter who you are, Balsillie or Pope Benedict, if you want a team in Hamilton, then you're out of luck, it ain't gonna happen no matter who you are, or how 'nice' you play with the nhl.

Well how about the fact that Ron Joyce could have had a team in Hamilton but chose not to pay the expansion fee up front? or the fact that Balsillie lied to Mario when he said he had no intention of moving the Penguins to Hamilton?

 

[cbcwpg]

Actually, what seriously boggles the mind is people who believe that Balsillie did not first approach bettman and try to do this 'the right way', and play nice with the evil dwarf. I mean seriously, you don't think Balsillie initially tried to play by the rules to get his team? And as soon as he was laughed out of bettmans office by both bettman and mlse, what was he to do? Both bettman and mlse hate Hamilton with a passion. It doesn't matter who you are, Balsillie or Pope Benedict, if you want a team in Hamilton, then you're out of luck, it ain't gonna happen no matter who you are, or how 'nice' you play with the nhl.

It always has boiled down to location. Basillie tried to buy Pittsburgh and move them to Hamilton, then Nashville to Hamilton, then Phoenix to Hamilton. The common factor is Hamilton and the NHL WILL NEVER let a team relocate to that city. IMO it doesn't matter what people think is right, the bottom line is relocating a team to Hamilton will result in MLSE taking the NHL to court over territorial rights or getting a huge payout from the new owners in Hamilton that it will never happen.

I will also say this ( again JMO ) that if Basillie had tried to buy the Coyotes out of BK but wanted to move them to say Kansas City or Houston, they would already be there with Bettman's blessing.

 

[Viqsi]

And as for Balsillie killing any hope whatsoever of a team playing in Hamilton... LOL. There was Never any hope of an NHL team being allowed in Hamilton, and secondly, if it's Balsillie that the League dislikes so much, then why should that stop Hamilton from getting a team... Is the League a group of little children who would take their vengeance out on the city because of one man that they hate who tried to put a team there?

Only in the sense that the City made deals to exclusively work with Balsillie. If they kick him to the curb, things might be different.

I will also say this ( again JMO ) that if Basillie had tried to buy the Coyotes out of BK but wanted to move them to say Kansas City or Houston, they would already be there with Bettman's blessing.

Absolutely disagree. The issue was the conduct of Balsillie and Rodier and the rest of his merry men w/r/t misleading folks into thinking that he'd be willing to keep teams in existing markets in prior cases. By the time Phoenix came around, he already had himself a very well established - and very ugly - reputation with the BOG.

Favored market or otherwise, you just don't go into business with a guy who gleefully lies to you about what his plans are.

 

[HamiltonFan]

Well how about the fact that Ron Joyce could have had a team in Hamilton but chose not to pay the expansion fee up front? or the fact that Balsillie lied to Mario when he said he had no intention of moving the Penguins to Hamilton?

In 1990, seymour knox (sabres owner) said to Ron Joyce that Hamilton would get a team over his dead body.
As far as choosing not to pay the expansion fee up front, the nhl refused to tell Joyce how much the territorial fees from toronto and buffalo would be. In effect, they wanted a blank cheque from Joyce for the territorial fees. Pay your $50 million expansion fee first, then once the nhl cashes the cheque, then they tell you how much territorial fees are. Must make uncle gary all warm and fuzzy to know he's just the latest in a fine line of nhl dictators, all of whom value honesty and integrity as their most outstanding attributes.
http://www.bringthenhltohamilton.com/flights_of_fancy7.html

 

[Killion]

A Comparative Study of Vertically Challenged Dictators from the Late 18th Century until Today.

So thats how Reebok got the deal with the league. Lifetime supply of AirForce 1 hightops with 5" lifts for GB, shades of gray to compliment the mans funereal sartorial tastes, bearing & delivery. I empathize. Im' 5'8", the little lady 6'5"in heels, and yes, I too have been called an "evil dwarf". On many occasions actually. Does that surprise you?.

Well how about the fact that Ron Joyce could have had a team in Hamilton but chose not to pay the expansion fee up front? or the fact that Balsillie lied to Mario when he said he had no intention of moving the Penguins to Hamilton?

Unfortunate really. The man needs to learn that the NHL's constitution is law based on reason, not passion. As for Joyce, he wasnt willing to cough up the extra cash, nor was Karmano's who was eyeing the situation; Esposito & his Japanese backers were the only ones willing to pay full pop without quibble, driven by Phil's GENUINE passion and little else. As for MLSE's obstinate position (and Buffalo, new owner, change of outlook hopefully), its gotta be in flux, superheated by the recession south of the border & to a lesser extent up here, a situation of whats best for the greater good of the league.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

After seeking to sell the team for 5+ years and unable to do so for legal and other reasons either a buyer willing to purchase the team to keep it in Atlanta needs to come forth promptly or this team will be relocated. I don't think anyone is interested in covering any losses while this plays itself out over a long period of time.

NOPE Gary Bettman will own another team before ever allows one of his BABIES to be relocated.

If he wants to keep the team in Atlanta, they will do exactly that, again.

NHL blocked the Blues move to Saskatoon. The Coyotes potential move to Hamilton was also blocked, albeit in a different way. It's possible that the NHL has blocked other moves too, behind closed doors.

The rest of your post is valid though. Obviously, if no owner comes forward in Atlanta, the team will move.

Not true. No owner has really come forward in Phoenix yet there they are, not moving.

In theory no team can move without the blessing of the NHL. The NHL hasn't ever blocked a move though...so take that however you want.

If nobody is buying the Thrashers in Atlanta....there is no choice but to let the current Owners sell to somebody that will move them. At the time of the sale the NHL will approve the owner AND their relocation application.

Doubt it.

Even if ASG can find a local owner to buy the team, they cannot play at Phillips unless they negotiate a lease with ASG first, correct?

The lease can be transferred to anyone if language about transference is in the lease.


I am not sure how with everything that has gone on in the past several years with teams such as Tampa, Pittsburgh, Nashville, Phoenix, NYI, and Buffalo that anyone can think that an team is going to be moving to another market and that the owners would give up any of those huge expansion fees if they decide teams should go to QC or Peg or KC or wherever.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Wouldn't shock me. Atlanta is just not a good professional sports town.

 

[Whileee]

NOPE Gary Bettman will own another team before ever allows one of his BABIES to be relocated.

If he wants to keep the team in Atlanta, they will do exactly that, again.

I can't see that happening, actually. The only circumstances under which I could see them purchasing the Thrashers would be on an interim basis if they have another buyer ready to go. Can you imagine them trying to own a team and co-exist in Atlanta with the Hawks, trying to hammer out a lease agreement, etc.? They have shown ample evidence in the Coyotes case that they will not lose one dime owning and operating a franchise, however fond they are of the market. I think it would be highly unlikely that they would risk a financial bath in Atlanta.

It is perhaps useful to remember that the NHL stepped in to purchase the Coyotes to keep them out of the hands of Balsillie in a bankruptcy auction. They were forced to do so because there were no other bidders.

 

[KevFu]

You did not even have to look to the US to find such comments. These were commonplace in the Toronto media.

Well, that would back up my point that the conspiracy to steal the game from Canada doesn't exist, since it was Canadian media selling out your heritage.

It always has boiled down to location. Basillie tried to buy Pittsburgh and move them to Hamilton, then Nashville to Hamilton, then Phoenix to Hamilton. The common factor is Hamilton and the NHL WILL NEVER let a team relocate to that city. IMO it doesn't matter what people think is right, the bottom line is relocating a team to Hamilton will result in MLSE taking the NHL to court over territorial rights or getting a huge payout from the new owners in Hamilton that it will never happen.

I will also say this ( again JMO ) that if Basillie had tried to buy the Coyotes out of BK but wanted to move them to say Kansas City or Houston, they would already be there with Bettman's blessing.

I think the bigger factor than Toronto is Buffalo. Toronto fill fight to the death to keep a team from Hamilton because they don't want dollars to slip through their fingers. The NHL's prime concern with regards to Hamilton, is Buffalo.

If Hamilton was the same distance from Toronto, but to the east or north, they might have a team by now. Because we'd see what JB was willing to pay. And he's shown he's not afraid of a court case.

But the health and stability of Buffalo would be in jeopardy if Hamilton got a team...

And Bettman fight for all the current NHL cities to keep their teams.

In 1990, seymour knox (sabres owner) said to Ron Joyce that Hamilton would get a team over his dead body.
As far as choosing not to pay the expansion fee up front, the nhl refused to tell Joyce how much the territorial fees from toronto and buffalo would be. In effect, they wanted a blank cheque from Joyce for the territorial fees. Pay your $50 million expansion fee first, then once the nhl cashes the cheque, then they tell you how much territorial fees are. Must make uncle gary all warm and fuzzy to know he's just the latest in a fine line of nhl dictators, all of whom value honesty and integrity as their most outstanding attributes.
http://www.bringthenhltohamilton.com/flights_of_fancy7.html

At his secret orientation, the former commissioners revealed that the most essential part of the job was screwing Hamilton from their God-given right to an NHL team.

 

[Killion]

But the health and stability of Buffalo would be in jeopardy if Hamilton got a team...

Poppycock Sir. Both Buffalo & MLSE are simply posturing; the latter much preferring a team in the Hammer then a new building in Vaughan, Downsview or Mississauga. Their simply upping the ante'. Both Lady's protest too much. But thats' another thread..... That being said, I resented (and still do) the leagues relo of the Flames to Calgary in 80, then as now a vibrant & critical market in terms of growth, media etc. I can think of 3-4 other spots that should be shopped. But this?. Painted themselves into a corner. Dysfunctional. Might be completely untenable. No other options at the end of the day. Another retreat in the offing. Never shouldve' gotten this far.

 

[MaskedSonja]

Poppycock Sir. Both Buffalo & MLSE are simply posturing; the latter much preferring a team in the Hammer then a new building in Vaughan, Downsview or Mississauga. Their simply upping the ante'. Both Lady's protest too much. But thats' another thread..... That being said, I resented (and still do) the leagues relo of the Flames to Calgary in 80, then as now a vibrant & critical market in terms of growth, media etc. I can think of 3-4 other spots that should be shopped. But this?. Painted themselves into a corner. Dysfunctional. Might be completely untenable. No other options at the end of the day. Another retreat in the offing. Never shouldve' gotten this far.

Would you like some Sherry with that, Milord?

 

[Killion]

Would you like some Sherry with that, Milord?

Thanks but no. Im fine with my Southern Comfort, the Allman Brothers & Steve Earle. I wish you Canadians' would just leave us alone to sort these Carpetbaggers out. However If you've got a few extra cannnisters of Whoop-Ass to spare for SG, by all means ship it express.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

Since I'm not in Atlanta, I'll ask you.

Just a gut feel, but how many fans do you think that go to basketball also go to hockey and vica-versa?

VERY few. Where I grew up basketball players were people that couldn't play hockey.

 

[Fourier]

Well, that would back up my point that the conspiracy to steal the game from Canada doesn't exist, since it was Canadian media selling out your heritage.

Well not quite. The Toronto media was not alone. There were lots of stories that got play in the Edmonton papers written by US writers who felt that having cities like Edmonton and Winnipeg in the NHL made the league seem bush league in the eyes of American fans.

Personally, I always thought that it was more about arrogant/ignorant sports writers than it was about US or central Canadian fans. The LA sports guys in particular were never happy about having to occasionally spend time in Edmonton in January.

 

[bodybreak]

It always has boiled down to location. Basillie tried to buy Pittsburgh and move them to Hamilton, then Nashville to Hamilton, then Phoenix to Hamilton. The common factor is Hamilton and the NHL WILL NEVER let a team relocate to that city. IMO it doesn't matter what people think is right, the bottom line is relocating a team to Hamilton will result in MLSE taking the NHL to court over territorial rights or getting a huge payout from the new owners in Hamilton that it will never happen.

I will also say this ( again JMO ) that if Basillie had tried to buy the Coyotes out of BK but wanted to move them to say Kansas City or Houston, they would already be there with Bettman's blessing.

Don't forget that JB approached Sens' owner Eugene Melnyk about buying the team... That was done in a much more "proper" (and quiet) way... Melnyk mentioned it a couple offseasons back on Toronto's FAN 590.

 

[Evil Doctor]

And you know, I highly doubt that even if there had been a forum like this back then, that we would've seen dozens of US hockey fans scavenging around in the hope that the Jets or Nordiques ended up in their city.

There was, and they did. I first posted under my username "Evil Doctor" way back in 1985 in an Usenet posting. In the 90's, before dial-up internet access became commonplace, many computer users posted on BBSs on forum service known as Fidonet, and it had a forum simply known as HOCKEY. On it, I made a ballsy prediction that, before Phoenix even played a game, that the franchise would regret moving from Winnipeg and that when the NHL US television money dried up and if the Canadian dollar went above 85 cents US then the pull of franchises would switch from south to north, and many of the southern teams would fold like tents in a hurricane. Naturally I was mocked for suggesting this, that the scenerio wasn't even remotely possible.

So to "Coach", if you happen to be here lurking....Nyah Nyah Nyah Nyah

 

[Duke749]

Wouldn't shock me. Atlanta is just not a good professional sports town.

It' not like you can expect people to show up with all the years of mediocraty between the Hawks, Falcons, Braves, and Thrashers.

 

[MountainHawk]

The Braves won division titles for like 13 out of 14 seasons, and still had empty seats.

 

[MoreOrr]

The Braves won division titles for like 13 out of 14 seasons, and still had empty seats.

That's what some of us have been trying to point out, that Atlanta simply isn't a "sports fanatic" city, no matter what the sport. I don't see it as being any particular knock against the NHL there. Epecially for a team that's had as little success as the Thrashers have had, one might even go so far as to say that attendance hasn't been all that bad. But that should've been a well-established fact about Atlanta as a sports town when the NHL went there. Putting a team in Atlanta, you'd know that it would have to be run like a fine-tuned machine if you want it to have any kind of real economic success.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

The Braves won division titles for like 13 out of 14 seasons, and still had empty seats.

You're not allowed to make that comment.

Actually during one of these debate an Atlanta fan said the fans are bored with all of the winning they do.

 

[Duke749]

The Braves won division titles for like 13 out of 14 seasons, and still had empty seats.

And before 91 they were terrible for years. The Braves success was the first kind of constant success ever. They were selling out games in the early and mid 90s. After 96 I don't think we ever made it back to a world series. And once turner field was built, it wasn't exactly easy to sell out a 50,000 seat staduim 81 times a year. The thing about the Braves was, we got to a point where we expected to be in the playoffs and then not really do anything once we got there. No, it isn't exactly ideal though.

And outside of the Braves in the 90s, there is really nothing else.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

The Braves averaged 31,000 this year.

 

[wickedwitch]

And before 91 they were terrible for years. The Braves success was the first kind of constant success ever. They were selling out games in the early and mid 90s. After 96 I don't think we ever made it back to a world series. And once turner field was built, it wasn't exactly easy to sell out a 50,000 seat staduim 81 times a year. The thing about the Braves was, we got to a point where we expected to be in the playoffs and then not really do anything once we got there. No, it isn't exactly ideal though.

This has to be the biggest bunch of crap I've ever read. There is absolutely no defense of a fan base that won't show up to watch a great team, unless the prices are absurdly exorbitant, which was not the case in Atlanta.

 

[EbencoyE]

The Braves won division titles for like 13 out of 14 seasons, and still had empty seats.

Wouldn't surprise me if the Sharks played in front of a lot of empty seats even though they have consistently had one of the best teams every year in the NHL. Doesn't matter how good you do during the season if you can't do anything with it in the playoffs.

Besides, every baseball team except for a select few plays in front of empty seats. Those stadiums are built for playoff-sized crowds. They aren't meant to be full for regular season games.