The Crypto Guy
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But it’s not just 10M, it’s also Jones, Kravtsov, a 1st, Chytil....or whatever players going back.
[Poll] Zibanejad @10M or Eichel?
- Thread starter EdJovanovski
- Start date
NickyFotiu
NYR 2024 Cup Champs!
- Sep 29, 2011
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There is risk but if Buffalo retains 5 mill a year I roll the dice. If Eichel is healthy he brings a dimension we do not currently have.
will1066
Your positivity is not welcomed
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I had posted in the Kings forum about this. Most of them seem to think Byefield, Turcotte and Vilardi are definitely out of the question unless we gave up a huge haul, over-payment. Out of the 3 I would want Turcotte the most right now, but it's probable Turcotte and/or Vilardi end up at wing at some point. Especially now that they signed Danault and still have Kopitar. Some thought the Danault signing was worrying because it might hint at problems in the development of Byefield, Turcotte and Vilardi, or at least lowered faith in their progress.
Realistically, Kupari, Madden, Thomas and JAD and maybe Pinelli. But I am really not sure about those guys. Used to like JAD when he first drafted, but he really hasn't made the progress he should have.
I guess for like Kupari, if they would do a straight swap for Miller or Robertson or whatever, it might be worth it. All though I would feel more comfortable moving Miller or Jones at least for Turcotte or Vilardi at minimum. Robertson for Kupari well, I would do it, not sure they would. Many seem to think Kupari is least likely to be able to play on the wing. If that is true, it could make him available eventually and fit well with what we are looking for.
Madden, Thomas and JAD concern me though and I am not sure if any of the 3 have realistic top 6 upside at this point. I could be wrong, I don't really follow them too closely.
But yea, Kings fans at least, didn't even seem too interested in Miller or Jones which I found odd because they definitely need a LD. I just think they won't be pressured into moving Byefield, Turcotte or Vilardi any time soon and their fans seem to agree.
Chimpradamus
Registered User
Anything older than 23 = a boomer according to the kids, even though the youngest actual boomer is at least 57 years old.
There was a thread, several actually, all variations on this theme.
Of course Byfield is off the table.
Vilardi etc also want a premium overpay, not worth it.
We need Robertson, etc and would not make any of those moves.
Turcotte is interesting but at 5'11" would prefer to bigger guy if we are paying for him.
Chytil is our 2C
LaF-Chytil-Guauthier
we have bottom 6 pivot options
best short term option, if we can't do
extended + retained Zib + Strome + Jones + Reunanen + Geo
for
Matthews
then best is
see if Zib takes 9-10.5 but only on 3-4 yrs and no nmc, limited ntc
in which case
experiment w/Krav betw Kakko + Panarin
keep Kreider + Zib for familar chemistry and try the following for RW:
Blais (straight forward and no exp needed)
and part time
Jones
[so he gets both some mins and is showcased]
and possibly also
Barron [so we get him some better mins than 4th line only]
How would Gauthier play on the 2nd line? That's so unlikely. 3 of our other RW would have to get injured for that to happen. If Chytil is at 2C, at 2RW it would either be Strome, Goodrow or I guess Kravtsov. Strome for Faceoffs or Goodrow for a heavy and faceoffs or Kravtsov if just want a straightforward RW. With how bad Chytil is at faceoffs atm it would probably be one of Strome or Goodrow. If Chytil stayed at 3C, I think it's Kreider - Chytil - Goodrow.
Gauthier about the last guy I think they'd put on the 2nd line. I don't even think he's a 3rd liner on our current team the way the roster stands. He might not even play some nights.
Which Matthews is this? Toronto is moving Matthews? And they're going to do it for ZIb, Strome, Jones, Reunanen and Georgiev? Don't get me wrong. I would do that in a heartbeat. But Toronto would laugh in our face, then fall to the floor, continue laugh, until they died or at least passed out. That would never happen in 10,000,000,000 years. Why in the world would Toronto trade him for that? Or trade him at all. If for some reason, the Leafs went insane and were open to moving Matthews, at minimum, and I don't even know if this is enough, it would have to be either Laf or Kakko, + Either Fox or Lundqvist + Chytil + 2 first round picks or something. I am not sure they would even do that. And we would probably have to include both Lafrenier and Kakko. And they'd still say no way. But maybe if we offered Laf + Fox + Chytil they'd think about it a few minutes before saying no.
They aren't likely going to experiment with Kravtsov, or as I've seen some suggest, Laf, at center. That's pretty unlikely. Kravtsov still needs to adjust to playing on RW. I don't think they are going to screw around with his position if he can't even crack the top 6 yet. But either way, that's not usually something you see from guys that are mostly wingers. I know he's played some center in his past. But it's not substantial. Anyway, we are going to need him at RW in the long run.
Jones will never get tried as a forward. He's probably our highest ceiling offensive LD. If we don't trade him, he's going to stay at LD. I don't want to trade him.
Blais, I mean maybe if he had a really good preseason. He could surprise I guess. But he seems like a 4th line player from what I know of him.
Barron is interesting. He could do well when called up. They definitely grooming him for center. But if he worked out on the wing, it wouldn't be the worst thing.
As far as the Kings centers go, I would take either Turcotte or Vilardi in a heartbeat. And I would trade Robertson in a second for either of them or even Kupari. Would have to think hard about moving Robertson for any of their other centers. But right now, aside from Tuomanen and other lower prospect Ds, Robertson is probably our most expendable. Robertson seems like he will be a nice player, a good gritty Dman, very good in his own zone, offers a bit of offense. But he doesn't have near the offensive potential of Jones and he doesn't have the high upside like Miller. All though with that said and we could get a good center for Miller, I would do it. I wouldn't mind moving Miller and going with Jones and Robertson at LD. But if we could get the center for Robertson instead of Miller, you have to take that trade. I don't dislike Robertson. But he's definitely below Lindgren, Miller and Jones at LD.
Ultimately, I think we are going to sign someone. But worst case, we play Zib, Strome, Chytil, Rooney as our centers, or Chytil as 2C with Strome or Goodrow at RW which would move Kravtsov out of the top 6, to the 3rd line with either Goodrow or Strome as 3C instead. Otherwise our RW are going to be Kakko, Kravtsov, Goodrow, Blais/Gauthier. Blais could surprise I guess and play 3C, but I think that's one of the less likely scenarios. If we add a center, it probably just moves either Strome or Chytil to the wing, with the other playing 3C.
Last edited:
Thank you for courtesy of thoughtful, extended reply
am a bit slammed atm, so let me get back to you in more detail later.
Just to answer a few key points now, as courtesy:
Strome gets dealt one way the other, regardless of who stays or goes or comes.
As to Gauthier on the second line, I am going less by the perceived 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th line designations and instead am going on what I think = best chemistry.
A plus is if it seems to fit what I think is a true formula:
driver of play + facilitator + scorer finisher.
e.g., I would like to try Krav at C on Panarin's line as that w/KK that is a fit:
Kakko [beast who drives play] + Krav [passing pivot facilitator + AP [scorer]
As applies additionally:
LaF [scorer] + Chytil [facilitator] + Gauthier [bull who is driver of play]
that rationale is whether Chytil's line is second or third. See what I mean?
--------------
Mathews:
Leafs will NOT move Matthews if they don't have to.
The premise why they consider is:
First and foremost, his deal is up in 3 seasons.
If he says okay, I'm good, and extends, there is no discussion.
There is a likelihood he wants to go to AZ get max term + $ as a fav son.
IF IF IF
that is the case
THEN Leafs have to deal before or during final year or lose him for nothing.
Second, Leafs have repeatedly failed w/top heavy lineup.
But of other big pieces
Tavares has nmc and came home.
Marner has value but is very expensive as a W, and few teams can absorb a big chunk of salary.
Nylander at < 7 is good value and is not likely moved.
So it is either more of the same for 2 years, or deal Matthews now while added contract time = more value = greater return.
Ok, so
Rangers tell Zib we love ya, but can't do crazy late term + top top $, Let us do a sign + trade, you go to competitive team in leafs, and you'll get 10.5. So we do 5 yrs @10.5 per
retain 3.5 per
so leafs are getting most of Matthews value in Zib at only 7 per x 5!
Then we add Strome, who is a bargain this year.
He is from Tor.
Likely extends for decent $ for correct term 4ish yrs.
Add Jones
Leafs D was ok+, but other than Liljigren mostly lacks youth.
Add Geo = useful G. Rangers can retain a bit here too as his deal is short term.
bring back Hank at league min once he is fully cleared medically
we have backup options if otherwise
----------
So that = ballpark cap neutral.
As to who plays what line you experiment
first impulse is to put at C w/Panarin
then put Krav on Kreider's line
that could work
so could Matthews pivoting Kreider and correct RW.
Let's get Matthews first, then worry about lines lineup
now understand
NY is not impervious to same concern as Leafs.
Small chance something happens and Matthews foregoes AZ
but realistically, he goes,
So this is stopgap allows NY to enjoy Matthews for 2 full seasons
then we trade to AZ, who not only wants him early but wants to extend that extra 8th yr,
at that pt we get
Krebs + multiple 1sts
recover what we paid
enjoy AM production
profit
NickyFotiu
NYR 2024 Cup Champs!
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Who are these blue chips that are better than a healthy Eichel at 5 mill if Buff retains 5 mill?
There are only so many spots on the roster. The Rangers already have trouble finding room on the wings
NickyFotiu
NYR 2024 Cup Champs!
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I'm not a boomer but I would rather be a "boomer" than a "tide pod eater"
Heh. Well that's quite a plan. But a whole lot seems to have to occur to make that possible. Some of it would be interesting.
Where exactly is this coming from or what makes this likely or realistic?
"Small chance something happens and Matthews foregoes AZ
but realistically, he goes,"
Just because he lived in Arizona, doesn't mean he wants to go there to play. He can go there in the off-season as much as he wants. He's smarter than that. And he has to know what kind of franchise they are and the loss of his name/likeness in market value. He'd be giving up SO much money in commercial ventures. As a Leaf he's worth a ton. Or for other teams in big markets. I don't see why any hockey player taking the game seriously, if they had their choice of teams, would go to Arizona. Regardless of his fond memories. Players don't always want to play where they are from. He might say some nice words about Arizona when asked, or in interviews, but that's just good optics. Even if he was a fan of the team. That's not enough. On the small chance he doesn't re-sign with Toronto. Which I am pretty sure he will. Arizona may have money, but he's gonna get the max or close to it wherever he goes. And I am sure he'll have a choice of teams. The Yotes have nothing else to lure him there. It's not a very good hockey town all things considered. And well, if he did go there I think his chances of winning a Cup will have disappeared. The most likely scenario I would have to think is he just stays in Toronto. I don't see why Leafs would want Tavares over Matthews long term. Tavares goes invisible when you need him most. I could see Tavares ending up in Arizona before I could see Matthews there. If on the small chance Leaf's don't re-sign him, I am really not sure who would trade for him if he didn't guarantee to sign a long term contract. It wouldn't make the Rangers to get him, to spend assets, and then have him for a year or 2. For that kind of trade to work, he'd have to agree to a long term contract with his new team. And then that team isn't going to suddenly trade him to Arizona.
Also, regarding the Leafs, Tavares kind of stinks. I don't see why Leafs would want Tavares over Matthews long term. I am pretty sure the Leafs are regretting getting him at this point. They'll more than likely do everything they can to re-sign Matthews and let Tavares' contract run out. Tavares goes invisible when you need him most and he's not a winner or someone who I think even really cares that much about winning. He seems to only care about his career. And I think he's probably pissed as it is that Marner and Matthews get more minutes. I could see Tavares ending up in Arizona before I could see Matthews there.
As far as Rangers lines go, I see what you mean. But Gauthier would need to be magically transformed into a different player to be used on the top 2 lines by Gallant. Chemistry or no chemistry. Not all lines need to be neatly divided into those 3 categories. And even if you want to build lines like that, talented players are capable of playing multiple roles. I honestly don't think Gallant would even try him there to find out if he does have chemistry or not. If it happened it would be a fluke accident. And I am pretty sure he would still say, "nice game" and the next day Gauthier would be back on the 4th line. You just don't play a guy like Gauthier in your top 6 when you have RW's that are worlds better than him. As long as Kakko, Kravtsov and even Strome are on the team, they'll be in the top 6/9. And I am pretty sure they'd use Chytil or like Kreider maybe at top 2 RW if they had to before Gauthier. If they want a little toughness and ability to drive play, Kreider would probably make more sense.
I also have doubts the Rangers will be re-signing Panarin in 2026. There's a small chance they can afford to, but I think it's unlikely. After all the contracts they'll have to give the younger kids by then, Fox, Laf, Kakko, Sheisty etc.. But by then Othmann should be around, if he doesn't bust or something. But adding more big salaries is going to be tough.
I guess there is a slight chance Kravtsov could get tried at center. I am not sure what would need to happen to make Gallant do that, but I guess it's not completely out of the question.
And isn't Krebs on Vegas? How is Arizona getting him to send back? Plus if Matthews did end up in NY somehow, it'd be the last place he would leave. He's worth millions more as a Ranger than as a Coyote. Theoretically I could see him go to a Cali team, but even that is unlikely.
It's a nice idea. I just don't see, well, pretty much any of that actually happening. I could be wrong though, who knows.
there is no guarantee that Eich is/will be healthy
you are buying damaged goods
or
if repaired
a guy predisposed to severe injury w/1 critical hit
that is somewhat true for all players
but it is esp true for JE
given his injuries already experienced
AND
that knowing that, some are gonna put a target on his back.
Sabes want the easy route
they don't want mid late 1sts, then wait and develop
they want bluest blue chips now
NO
and even if we were to foolishly entertain that,
which again is NO
then the ? becomes
how readily do we replace
Kakko/Krav/Schneid/KAM/Nils L etc
with later picks?
---------
AND 1 last time
math
need $$$$
for
Shesty/Fox increases
and
ALSO
elcs->rfas->ufas
JE at 5 is not enough
would rather have 5 blue chip elcs = depth and downward pressure vs cap instead
brain fart on Krebs on Vegas not AZ
rest of it, no time for detail but short edition
Matthews will get max on whatever team can make cap room to pay that to him, which prob includes, but may not def be Leafs
but $ is not everything
good will can be huge
it's a legit thing they teach in biz class
if favorite son goes to yotes, they will mortgage everything to win while he is there 2nd half of his career
and then afterwards, he could literally do anything and get a shot
like
run for governor
get in on top opportunities
etc
---------
Again, sure
Leafs want to deal Tavares instead
even retaining which is problematic
Tavares holds nmc
it is either
move Marner instead
- also requires huge cap retention, limits return
make other moves
or move Matthews
unless leafs want to take chances w/more of the same
NickyFotiu
NYR 2024 Cup Champs!
- Sep 29, 2011
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Latest talked about via Brooks would be possible JE @5 for KK, Krav, Jones and a 1st.
Replacing KK, Krav, Jones and a first is a lot easier than finding a center of JE caliper (if healthy) at 5 mill a year. There are only so many spots on this team. It needs more quality. It has plenty of quantity.
If Rangers could get Mathews or Marner obviously they should but that is very unlikely.
sorry disagree
risk of Eich esp long term is not worth it even at 5
no no no
this win now as in immediate gratification idea must be broken and crushed
it rarely works short term and never works long term
do we not remember how we sacrificed Norstrom [sp] for an aging Robatille, and that screwed us for a decade?
Reunanen is the level of prospect you include carefree in a deal esp w/Robertson, KAM, Lindgren already there.
Kravtsov and KK are not
NickyFotiu
NYR 2024 Cup Champs!
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This actually reminds me of the people on this board that argued no to Stamkos no matter what and that we were better off with Stepan than taking a risk on Stamkos as a FA years ago. Before that on another board people argued that we absolutely could not trade Jamie Ludmark for Jagr. I argued against that fallacy then and I do now. If Eichel is healthy his ceiling at $5 mill (Buff retaining 5) is well worth the risk of a KK, Krav, Jones and a 1st trade. There are only so many spots. There are only 6 top line forward positions. There are only 4 top D positions. Having a bunch of so so guys does not get things done. You have to turn quantity in to quality if you have an excess of players. Otherwise you end up losing the quantity anyway by them either flaming out, no place to play or due to salary. See Buch this year.
thanks
on this one I think we agree to disagree
I want to play more emerging youth
think they are mostly largely ready now, ok w/few growing pains
thankfully most vets adds were strategic, not long term, not killing us cap wise even if a tad more $ or term here or there
for me it is as simple as all these elcs, possibly excepting Jones are critical THEY ARE NOT SURPLUS and cannot be sacrificed
just imo
NickyFotiu
NYR 2024 Cup Champs!
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Agreeing to disagree is fine.
The great thing about playing for tomorrow is tomorrow never comes.
It can't be about salary cap if Buff retains 5 mill. Where are you going to get a center like JE (if healthy) signed long term for 5 mill a season?
So who are your second line and 3rd line centers that you expect the Rangers to win a cup with?
Who are the top 4 wingers? What are you going to do with the rest of them? Lose them like Buch?
Who are your top 4 Dmen? What will you do with the rest of them?
How many significant players did Tampa have on ELC's the last 2 cup years?
You are okay with Zibs age 28 at 9-10 mill a year but not JE (25) at 5 mill a year?
How much do you think Strome (28) will be paid as a FA next season?
Do you view Chytil (22 in a month) as your first or second line center on a cup winner?
jkutswings
hot piss hockey
- Jul 10, 2014
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Red Wings fan coming in peace.
Suppose for a moment that Zibanejad gets traded (in a package separate from any potential deal for Eichel). And that any proposed assets from either side are completely healthy.
Realistically, what would be the return?
Not saying that Detroit has what you're looking for. Just curious about perceived value and wants/needs.
Suppose for a moment that Zibanejad gets traded (in a package separate from any potential deal for Eichel). And that any proposed assets from either side are completely healthy.
Realistically, what would be the return?
Not saying that Detroit has what you're looking for. Just curious about perceived value and wants/needs.
Yea and if Rangers did find the magic bean leading to Matthews, they handcuff him to the radiator in his blankcheckmansion every night so he could never get away.
You're saying @5 as in Sabres eat half his contract and cap hit? And we give up KK, Krav, Jones and a 1st? Honestly, Eichel at 5 is a lot more tempting than at 11 or whatever he's at. But I still couldn't give up Kakko and Kravtsov. Would have to be one or the other at most and then I am still not sure. Jones and a 1st..... Well I wouldn't want to I guess. Don't mind the 1st, but not keen on losing Jones either. I guess for @5 for the remainder of his contract, would be willing to do something like Kravtsov, Jones or Robertson and a 1st. But really I think it only works because of the reduced price. If I'm paying 11 or whatever the full number is, I don't think I could see it. As good as Kakko is too, I would have a hard time deciding between Kakko and Kravtsov. I still think Kravtsov could end up being the better offensive player. Don't think he will be the defensive player Kakko has turned into, but that's ok if he's putting up high end offense.
For Zibanijad? Think next season is his last before UFA so that'd be tough. I doubt we would have the leverage unless he'd extend first or guarantee a long term with the other team.
Larkin and a 1st maybe. Let's say they had equal length contracts. Multiple years left I would want more.
I would probably want Seider or Raymond. Probably Seider more, on top of Larkin. But then we have too many RD as it is. I would actually trade Lundqvist for Seider. lol. But that trade would start getting messy because I don't think Seider and Lundqvist are that far apart.
But otherwise, Larkin and Raymond maybe? Or if Edvinsson a LD. I forget. I would probably do Larkin and Edvinsson. for Zibs.
