Proposal: Poll: Should Rutherford get fired?

[Ugene Magic]

That's what I was just saying. Those two are a bad match. The weaknesses / bias tendancies are magnified instead of reduced by alternative opinions. They double down on stupid when it comes to old grinders and short-sighted drafting. And on the system they build around their grinders and draft picks. They were the unstoppable facepalm when unified in their thinking.

The biggest fail of all is the players bought in, and that's where they were winning more, they bought in "hook line and sinker."

So.. if people don't think having everyone buy into what your doing is prudent, just look at DB's accolades.

 

[#66]

Why do people keep throwing around Kessel's name as though it was a bad deal? Much like Sid and Letang he's been looking a lot better under Sullivan and in my opinion is starting to rediscover his offensive touch. I'd still do the trade without hesitation.

Me too, mostly because the Pens didn't give up much IMO. Doesn't make him a good fit though.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Me too, mostly because the Pens didn't give up much IMO. Doesn't make him a good fit though.

Ditto. Kessel's a good asset even if he doesn't pan out here.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Yeah... JR was certainly handed quite the foundation. But let's also remember that Shero was handed a variable treasure trove of awesomeness, himself. Shero did a great job building a competent team around it... at first. The fact alone that he believed in this crazy concept of real depth lines and a defense was revelation enough. But... my god... just look at what he inherited from Patrick. It was time for CP to go by the end... but not before he plucked every single franchise player Shero would lean on for his entire tenure out of their painful blowup/rebuild. Shero proceeded to do diddly-**** at the draft table from there on out. Not an acceptable result in today's league.

I think it's pretty apparent that Shero lucked out with the team he threw together for the Cup runs. As soon as people started leaving and he had to reshape the team again, he failed miserably. Repeatedly. Just look at the guys he went after year after year; Morrow, Murray, Stempniak, Poni, etc. He saw that the Cup teams did well and said "That's the ONLY way to do it!" and proceeded to sacrifice depth and surrounding Sid/Geno with talent in favor of the "Sid and Geno vs. The World" approach.

****, he practically begged Staal to stick around because he was terrified, unable or unwilling to move on from him. He handed Staal a blank check FFS. Jordan ****ing Staal, earning a $6M/yr, 10-year deal. Which ended up being his deal anyway, signed by our new and just as terrible GM, Jim Rutherford.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

****, he practically begged Staal to stick around because he was terrified, unable or unwilling to move on from him. He handed Staal a blank check FFS. Jordan ****ing Staal, earning a $6M/yr, 10-year deal. Which ended up being his deal anyway, signed by our new and just as terrible GM, Jim Rutherford.

I've actually grown to appreciate Staal more, over the years. Under the right circumstances (that Carolina wouldn't allow), I'd even like to see him a Penguin again, someday. But that said... yeah... that was an underrated bad moment by Shero that he made up for by getting the most he conceivably could out of JR in trade.

That contract was one of those "to grow into!" contracts that I never have and never will like. I don't know how possible it would have been but I wonder how things would have turned out were Staal shopped a bit in advance. Shero was obviously a little blindsided by Staal's desire to move on.

And like you said... yeah... of course JR was the guy on the other end. Had to have his guy... cost be damned.

 

[#66]

I think it's pretty apparent that Shero lucked out with the team he threw together for the Cup runs. As soon as people started leaving and he had to reshape the team again, he failed miserably. Repeatedly. Just look at the guys he went after year after year; Morrow, Murray, Stempniak, Poni, etc. He saw that the Cup teams did well and said "That's the ONLY way to do it!" and proceeded to sacrifice depth and surrounding Sid/Geno with talent in favor of the "Sid and Geno vs. The World" approach.

****, he practically begged Staal to stick around because he was terrified, unable or unwilling to move on from him. He handed Staal a blank check FFS. Jordan ****ing Staal, earning a $6M/yr, 10-year deal. Which ended up being his deal anyway, signed by our new and just as terrible GM, Jim Rutherford.

Ive always wondered how much of that had to do with Fletch.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I never had a problem with Staal as we used him. The issue was that he was unhappy/unwilling to continue to play as a shutdown, 3rd line center and refused to play wing on Geno or Sid's line. That was blatantly obvious, and we heard it publicly for months before Staal was eventually moved. It seems like the only person Staal's departure was a surprise to was Shero.

Shero didn't care, and wanted to keep him at all costs because change was verboten. If Staal had a change of heart and would've stayed, we likely would've seen Geno play LW for the rest of his career here.

And again, JR's not better. He's completely neglected the situation on defense (Martin, Orpik, Niskanen, Engelland walking) and actively ****ed it up worse (Despres<->Lovejoy). I'm just saying if you're criticizing JR for his shortcomings, you had damn well better admit the last several years of the Shero/Bylsma reign were absolutely putrid. I don't care if Sid/Geno/Fleury carried us through the first or second round of the playoffs. They did that in spite of their GM's handiwork.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I've actually grown to appreciate Staal more, over the years. Under the right circumstances (that Carolina wouldn't allow), I'd even like to see him a Penguin again, someday. But that said... yeah... that was an underrated bad moment by Shero that he made up for by getting the most he conceivably could out of JR in trade.

That contract was one of those "to grow into!" contracts that I never have and never will like. I don't know how possible it would have been but I wonder how things would have turned out were Staal shopped a bit in advance. Shero was obviously a little blindsided by Staal's desire to move on.

And like you said... yeah... of course JR was the guy on the other end. Had to have his guy... cost be damned.

Actually, Staal wasn't expecting to be moved. He said he only wanted to see what was out there in FA. (his right as an FA)There was no slam dunk he was leaving, but everyone played that tune he was. Wasn't what he said, nor did he expect to be moved. Shero got scared (Hossa) and played accordingly. Sometimes you have to trust players know what's best in their own interests. How's that working out for him in Carolina knowing they were an on again off again budget team?

Is it worth wasting years to play with your bro "knowing" you have no chance at competing. General research would bring you to that conclusion.

Shero lost big playing chicken when most likely Staal is still here. Dumoulin, Sutter to Bonino, and Pouliot, big deal.... Staal in the 12/13 playoffs is a difference maker, and Staal in the regular season is a difference maker.

Difference makers are worth the coin as we all know.

 

[plaidchuck]

Yep Staal was surprised he was moved. IIRC he went to a brothers wedding over a weekend and found out he was gone when came back.

IMO Shero had the right idea until Hossa didn't re-sign, and he just didn't recover from that.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

If that's the case, I can't imagine why he'd be surprised. He just turned down a 60M dollar contract to "look around." Of course his ass is getting traded. And to UM: I get what you mean but you'd really have been alright w/ Staal at 6M per for a decade? No. On top of it working out likely as Coach described (Staalkin fiasco), it would have been far too much to pay for a luxury. Staal helped the Penguins win by being a very good third liner. That is by no means some sort of unicorn that needs paid out the nose for over a vast period of time. You draft another one. Don't let a vast run of incompetence fool you into believing that isn't possible and somewhat common.

 

[DegenX]

Yep Staal was surprised he was moved. IIRC he went to a brothers wedding over a weekend and found out he was gone when came back.

IMO Shero had the right idea until Hossa didn't re-sign, and he just didn't recover from that.

It was his own wedding. He found out some time between the 'I do's' and the start of the reception.

 

[mpp9]

There's nothing "magical" about it. Orpik was addition by subtraction for this team. Despres was the player who made Martin leaving as a UFA palatable. The blueline make-up I posted earlier shows that the team was in fine shape on that front.

We didn't have a lot of trade assets, but the point is that not trading anything, we were a 2nd/3rd round playoff team. He didn't have to take any risks to keep it afloat...that's totally bunk. JR was tasked with improving the team but has made it worse for 1.5 years.

Things are looking better under Sullivan. But so far, the results under JR have been nothing but disappointing, and it's nobody's fault but his own.

So you're saying we are a 2nd round exit team last season with no changes aside from the normal deadline depth deals?

Kunitz went from a 37 goal scorer to 3rd liner. Who are you acquiring to replace that lost production? Shero already forced JR to sign or let Orpik and Nisky walk. Unless you're dealing DP, which Shero was not in favor of even for Kesler, we had few options. Kulemin ain't filling that hole. And Kessel fell into our lap last season.

You can fault the transition on defense, but not the situation at forward.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Yep Staal was surprised he was moved. IIRC he went to a brothers wedding over a weekend and found out he was gone when came back.

IMO Shero had the right idea until Hossa didn't re-sign, and he just didn't recover from that.

It was his own wedding.

If that's the case, I can't imagine why he'd be surprised. He just turned down a 60M dollar contract to "look around." Of course his ass is getting traded. And to UM: I get what you mean but you'd really have been alright w/ Staal at 6M per for a decade? No. On top of it working out likely as Coach described (Staalkin fiasco), it would have been far too much to pay for a luxury. Staal helped the Penguins win by being a very good third liner. That is by no means some sort of unicorn that needs paid out the nose for over a vast period of time. You draft another one. Don't let a vast run of incompetence fool you into believing that isn't possible and somewhat common.

You see, that offer doesn't go away just because he wants to feel out his worth. He ended up taking the exact same deal tells me he would be a Pens still. Yes. Staal would have been worth it being the cornerstone of that 3rd line. And Yes...Teams extend $$$ to guys that make a difference for them. Staal was 24 when traded.

Keeping Staal would have effected other moves and most likely trimmed the fat much sooner elsewhere. Who...? Take your pick of Dupuis, Kunitz, Orpik and who knows what other secondary players.

Would you rather have Staal or soon to be older vets at near top coin? That is what was in play at the time.

They could have been, Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Staal, Fleury and Neal. The wrong in thinking Staal being gone is good is thinking changes couldn't happen if he stayed. Things got worse due to him being gone. The wrong guys got new deals. The drafting stayed the same and passed over better selections with him gone. There were better selection could have been taken after the trade but they didn't materialize.

Point being, the Pens didn't get better. Wasted asset. Because the best your getting back now is either Dumoulin or Pouliot 3 years after the fact and neither will be an impact as Staal even if you combine them.

What would be sad had they kept Staal is they still would have passed over the standout forwards and Maatta to take Pouliot.

I don't hate, Pouliot, but I hate they passed over top ten picks to pick a later teen pick who hasn't been able to make his picking that high worth the gamble. At a position of no need at that point in time.

Just think, they'd be forced into the youth movement. Bennett was probably still M.A.S.H but he'd be in better shape to play higher in the roster.

Just one simple signing could have changed this teams makeup sooner. The right way.

Edit: Also, to hold onto the picked player to justify the trade is just plain dumb. (Kesler)

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

So you're saying we are a 2nd round exit team last season with no changes aside from the normal deadline depth deals?

Kunitz went from a 37 goal scorer to 3rd liner. Who are you acquiring to replace that lost production? Shero already forced JR to sign or let Orpik and Nisky walk. Unless you're dealing DP, which Shero was not in favor of even for Kesler, we had few options. Kulemin ain't filling that hole. And Kessel fell into our lap last season.

You can fault the transition on defense, but not the situation at forward.

Yes, I am. Kunitz was never going to be the difference between that team being a 2nd round team and one that barely made the playoffs. Sign Kulemin to complement Geno and Neal (another loss of production under JR), pass on Ehrhoff and play Despres, and we're in no worse position than we were the season before, at the very least.

Instead, we ****ed around and signed a terrible PMD for vet's sake instead of complementary LW for Geno - after trading his go-to RW. Then we spent a 1st on a winger later on that year who we proceeded to bounce around the line-up and then this year trade for - you guessed it - a complementary LW for Geno.

How people aren't more annoyed by that ass-backward roundabout way of getting an LW for Malkin while screwing our blueline is beyond me. Just easier to blame the Shero boogeyman than look at the subsequent stupid decisions JR made that turned us from a disappointing contender into a playoff also-ran.

 

[Rocket of Russia]

Yes, I am. Kunitz was never going to be the difference between that team being a 2nd round team and one that barely made the playoffs. Sign Kulemin to complement Geno and Neal (another loss of production under JR), pass on Ehrhoff and play Despres, and we're in no worse position than we were the season before, at the very least.

Instead, we ****ed around and signed a terrible PMD for vet's sake instead of complementary LW for Geno - after trading his go-to RW. Then we spent a 1st on a winger later on that year who we proceeded to bounce around the line-up and then this year trade for - you guessed it - a complementary LW for Geno.

How people aren't more annoyed by that ass-backward roundabout way of getting an LW for Malkin while screwing our blueline is beyond me. Just easier to blame the Shero boogeyman than look at the subsequent stupid decisions JR made that turned us from a disappointing contender into a playoff also-ran.

Kulemin had other plans....that d*ck!

 

[Terrapin]

He should be fired for the Despres trade. People say he had no control over it. Maybe so. But does that mean he had total control over his 'good' moves? Can't have it both ways.

But just as bad as that trade, was the way the cap was handled down the stretch last year. Playing the last how many weeks with only 5 D almost cost us a playoff spot. Kids on Xbox don't make mistakes like that, let alone professional GMs.

Personally I could care less, cause until this team is sold, it's just rearranging chairs on the Titanic.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

He should be fired for the Despres trade. People say he had no control over it. Maybe so. But does that mean he had total control over his 'good' moves? Can't have it both ways.

But just as bad as that trade, was the way the cap was handled down the stretch last year. Playing the last how many weeks with only 5 D almost cost us a playoff spot. Kids on Xbox don't make mistakes like that, let alone professional GMs.

Personally I could care less, cause until this team is sold, it's just rearranging chairs on the Titanic.

No matter how dumb, you do not judge a guy by one move but by his whole body of work.

I was extremely skeptical of the hiring at the time, and said so, at the time. None screamed bloody murder about the Despres trade louder than I did when it happened. However overall JR has done as good a job as can be expected given what he was given to work with.

My favorite thing with JR is that he makes mistakes but doesn't hang onto them. And usually seems to get the better of most deals in fixing the problems to boot. But like I said he doesn't seem to treat his mistakes as his kids who he would never part with to prove to everyone that somehow it was not a mistake.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

There's nothing "magical" about it. Orpik was addition by subtraction for this team. Despres was the player who made Martin leaving as a UFA palatable. The blueline make-up I posted earlier shows that the team was in fine shape on that front.

We didn't have a lot of trade assets, but the point is that not trading anything, we were a 2nd/3rd round playoff team. He didn't have to take any risks to keep it afloat...that's totally bunk. JR was tasked with improving the team but has made it worse for 1.5 years.

Things are looking better under Sullivan. But so far, the results under JR have been nothing but disappointing, and it's nobody's fault but his own.

you can keep ****ing saying this garbage but it won't make it true. the team was done after that series with the rags. shero made sure of that.

 

[Terrapin]

No matter how dumb, you do not judge a guy by one move but by his whole body of work.

I was extremely skeptical of the hiring at the time, and said so, at the time. None screamed bloody murder about the Despres trade louder than I did when it happened. However overall JR has done as good a job as can be expected given what he was given to work with.

My favorite thing with JR is that he makes mistakes but doesn't hang onto them. And usually seems to get the better of most deals in fixing the problems to boot. But like I said he doesn't seem to treat his mistakes as his kids who he would never part with to prove to everyone that somehow it was not a mistake.

But what moves has he made that have worked out really? On paper they may look ok, but in reality the only one so far is the Daley/Scuds deal. Hagelin/Perron looks like it will be good, but he was also the one that sent a 1st for Perron.

Our D is bad and our forward depth is horrid. We can blame Shero, and that's hard to argue, but JR has taken a bad situation and has made it worse IMO.

 

[Penguinator]

When healthy our forward depth ain't so bad + Rust, Kuhn are doing ok & we could always call up Simon/Sundqvist later on.

I'd like Bonino/Fehr to produce more though...

 

[DesertPenguin]

It's early but I'm giving GMJR some real credit for the Hagelin/Perron and Daley/Scuderi deals. Shed two players who were struggling for two who are helping us win and playing much better than they were on their previous teams. Thats pretty impressive. It's possible he's filled one of our #4D and one of our two top 6 LW spots without giving up any prospects or picks.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's early but I'm giving GMJR some real credit for the Hagelin/Perron and Daley/Scuderi deals. Shed two players who were struggling for two who are helping us win and playing much better than they were on their previous teams. Thats pretty impressive. It's possible he's filled one of our #4D and one of our two top 6 LW spots without giving up any prospects or picks.

I don't know what to think with Daley. One thing that sucks about playing Daley in the top-4 is that if they do that, it would be with Dumoulin and Daley can't be on a shutdown pair with Dumoulin. On the other hand, I think Daley and Dumoulin would complement each other extremely well and Daley has played like a top-4 D for us. It's weird. I think I'd want to see Dumoulin-Letang as the pair that gets the toughest shutdown minutes (against the Ovis and Tavares of the world) and Maatta-Daley to be our 2nd pair if we're talking about Daley in the top-4.

If the Pens were to get a physical #4/5 RD to play on the bottom pair with Pouliot, I would like our D overall with the pairs listed above. Even with Maatta-Letang and Dumoulin-Daley, I think I'd still be fine with those pairs.

 

[mpp9]

Dumoulin's a better player than Maatta right now. Slide him up with Letang. Let them be an actual shutdown pair. Play Maatta-Daley in more offensive zone situations.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Kulemin had other plans....that d*ck!

There has never been a shred of evidence provided to that end. All that was ever offered was a quote from his agent saying that playing with Grabovski was "a priority". Agent-speak, nothing more. If you can provide something else, I'm all ears.

We had the cap space to sign Kulemin for the same price the Isles paid, we also had a friend of his with whom he had pre-established chemistry, and we were the better team. We chose Ehrhoff.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Dumoulin's a better player than Maatta right now. Slide him up with Letang. Let them be an actual shutdown pair. Play Maatta-Daley in more offensive zone situations.

Agreed across the board. Dumo's play has blown me away this season. I never thought he'd be as good as he's been.