Proposal: Poll: Should Rutherford get fired?

[WayneSid9987]

He's done a pretty damn good job the last month.
But yea, still a deadline to get through...

Hopefully he keeps sending the warts out.

Hopefully he's learning from his mistakes here. (Him and who ever it was that really wanted the Desi/LJ swap.)
The Despres trade happened so sending out a youngster just for "experience" should be a big no no.
Grabbing just any "skilled" winger and paying a first(Perron)? Another big no no. Gotta be a good/great long term fit or forget it.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

JR's best moves for the Pens probably came when he was GM of the Canes. Sutter, 1st and Dumoulin for Staal, and trading Jussi Jokinen to the Pens for basically free.

Seriously though, JR is a "here and now" GM. He treats picks, prospects and young players like chiclets in an attempt to win now. With Crosby, Malkin, Letang, and Fleury, that's probably the right approach though as the Pens have a limited window. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but he'll keep trying in hopes that it'll push them over the top and in the Pens situation, I'd rather have that than a guy that doesn't try to win now.

The problem in Carolina was that, for the most part, they were never that close to competing so that was a bad approach and he couldn't build a defense to save his life.

 

[mpp9]

JR's best moves for the Pens probably came when he was GM of the Canes. Sutter, 1st and Dumoulin for Staal, and trading Jussi Jokinen to the Pens for basically free.

Seriously though, JR is a "here and now" GM. He treats picks, prospects and young players like chiclets in an attempt to win now. With Crosby, Malkin, Letang, and Fleury, that's probably the right approach though as the Pens have a limited window. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but he'll keep trying in hopes that it'll push them over the top and in the Pens situation, I'd rather have that than a guy that doesn't try to win now.

The problem in Carolina was that, for the most part, they were never that close to competing so that was a bad approach and he couldn't build a defense to save his life.

Pretty much. He struck out on Perron, Ehrhoff and Winnik.

Kessel looks to be coming around. Hagelin looks like a great addition, and his contributions won't be dependent on his production. Daley is definitely a great fit.

I'd say his offseason signings offset some of the Despres debacle. So I'm thinking he's just okay at the moment. He does well at the deadline, and he's good in my book.

 

[joeyjake5]

Well, two things I think we can all agree on:

1) Shero ****ed up.

2) What JR does (or more importantly, doesn't do) before the TDL will be huge. If he panics and picks up some rentals/Lovejoys, he should be fired before April.

I totally agree with both 1) and 2).

Yes the D overall still stinks, but JR's last two moves Hags and Daley might push this team into playoffs. Its definitely a better team W/O perron and scuds where there was absolutely no hope in making the playoffs.

 

[AquaticBirdman]

It's just not as simple or black and white as "Under Shero, X happened. Under JR, Y has happened."

There's a whole Hell of a lot more in play.

I can agree on that. Goes without saying that regardless of who the coach and GM are, there are a lot of other hands involved in the decisions that are ultimately being made.

 

[AquaticBirdman]

Pretty much. He struck out on Perron, Ehrhoff and Winnik.

Kessel looks to be coming around. Hagelin looks like a great addition, and his contributions won't be dependent on his production. Daley is definitely a great fit.

I'd say his offseason signings offset some of the Despres debacle. So I'm thinking he's just okay at the moment. He does well at the deadline, and he's good in my book.

It'll definitely be interesting to see what approach he takes at the deadline. No question he still sees the Pens as being potential contenders, especially with how the team has been looking under Sullivan, and how well Sid and Geno have been playing. We absolutely won't be sellers, and we all know that there's no way he stays quite come deadline day. He'll definitely make at least one trade to address a weakness (likely our blue line). Hopefully that trade won't involve another 1st rounder is all..

 

[AquaticBirdman]

JR's best moves for the Pens probably came when he was GM of the Canes. Sutter, 1st and Dumoulin for Staal, and trading Jussi Jokinen to the Pens for basically free.

Seriously though, JR is a "here and now" GM. He treats picks, prospects and young players like chiclets in an attempt to win now. With Crosby, Malkin, Letang, and Fleury, that's probably the right approach though as the Pens have a limited window. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but he'll keep trying in hopes that it'll push them over the top and in the Pens situation, I'd rather have that than a guy that doesn't try to win now.

The problem in Carolina was that, for the most part, they were never that close to competing so that was a bad approach and he couldn't build a defense to save his life.

That's basically the way I see it. The "core players" on this team aren't getting any younger. Sid, Geno, and Letang are all pushing 30, and Flower is already north of 30. If this team is gonna make a legit cup push, it has to be NOW, and not 3-4 years from now. It's for this reason as to why I can understand why he made that move for Perron last season, and why he made that move for Kessel in the summer. At least he's making moves for guys still in their primes and under contract, and not veteran rentals that are well north of 30...

 

[#66]

I dont think hes been that bad. There are still holes on this team but theyre fillable IMO.

Correcting or trying to correct the top 6 and top 4 D is and should be the priority. He may have brought in the Kessels and Perrons but at least hes trying.

Plotnikov might not have worked out but I do like that he went Euro. I also loved last years draft.

 

[AquaticBirdman]

Why do people keep throwing around Kessel's name as though it was a bad deal? Much like Sid and Letang he's been looking a lot better under Sullivan and in my opinion is starting to rediscover his offensive touch. I'd still do the trade without hesitation.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

That's basically the way I see it. The "core players" on this team aren't getting any younger. Sid, Geno, and Letang are all pushing 30, and Flower is already north of 30. If this team is gonna make a legit cup push, it has to be NOW, and not 3-4 years from now. It's for this reason as to why I can understand why he made that move for Perron last season, and why he made that move for Kessel in the summer. At least he's making moves for guys still in their primes and under contract, and not veteran rentals that are well north of 30...

That is the big differance between Rutherford and Shero. Shero traded for past prime rentals and Rutherford traded for players under contract in our cores age range. I have no problem if we trade a 1st for a player that is in the 26-29 age range that is not a rental like Kessel and Perron. Perron did not work out but was used to get Hagelin who does seem like a better fit. People will say that it is not worth a 1st but plenty of mid 1st round picks don't become 17 goal scores like Hagelin has done the past two years for the Rangers. If we get that Hagelin and the one that has looked good on Malkin's line I am fine with it. The only deal I was not on board with was Despres but I will give him a mulligan on that one.

Rutherford has brought in Kessel, Hornqvist, Hagelin, Daley, Bonino, Cole, Lovejoy, Erixon, and 2 2nd round picks for Neal, Despres, Scuderi, Sutter, and 2 1sts and a 3rd Kap and Harrington. When it is all sorted out after all those deals. Honestly don't have any problem with any trade he made besides Despres. Anyone can play Monday morning quarterback when a deal does not work out but he has done well in my opinion compared to Shero. I also like the UFA's he brought in that helped boost our bottom 6. No more Glass, Adams, Sill types and he found a taker for Scuds! What is not to like.

The team needed blowing up and Rutherford did that fast with the restraints he had after Shero. Shero traded picks and prospects for old rentals and Rutherford traded for players the same age as our core with term which is the way to go with this core.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I think it's equally hilarious that you think JR was dealt a good hand.

Daniel Sprong, a guy he drafted, is our best forward prospect by a country mile.

I know your argument is that we had this awesome prospect pool on defense. And on paper, we did. But looking closer....

Scott Harrington is not in the NHL even now playing on a team staring down 1st overall this summer, and the league appears to be shifting away from guys with his skill set.

Derrick Pouliot does not appear to be a player with an 8th overall pedigree. And he wasn't helping JR's situation last season.

They handled Brian Dumoulin pretty well, I think. He's stepped right in and played well. Maybe that extra year in the minors did him some good (which was the logic behind signing a stopgap in Ehrhoff).

No one disagrees the Despres trade was bad. But I can also see most any NHL GM agreeing that having 4 young NHL D in the lineup at the same time (Dumo, Maatta, Despres and DP) is not ideal for a team looking to win now. You can fault the win now mentality, but that was present under Shero as well. And you can fault the return we got for Despres. If we use him in a package for a legit top 4 guy or a legit top 6 winger, I think we're singing a different tune.

The Perron trade didn't work out. Since then, he's made up for it, IMO. He did what Shero could not for years in acquiring an elite winger. He turned Shero's ****up in Scuds into a guy playing excellent hockey for us. And his own mistake in Perron into a player we badly needed to increase team speed.

The Winnik trade was no worse than any of the other picks we sent out over the years for non impact depth forwards. Every team makes that mistake. I wish we'd be different, but that's how the NHL operates. And the win now mentality makes them do stupid things at the deadline.

JR was handed a team that always breezed through the regular season no matter how many key injuries they sustained, and made it to the 3rd and 2nd rounds in the previous two years, which is a good hand by any reasonable measure. He turned that hand into a bubble playoff team for the past 1.5 years.

Our defense when JR took over holds up to any closer look. Letang, Martin, Maatta, Despres, Dumoulin, and Bortuzzo, with Harrington and Pouliot ready for call-ups, was and is the basis for a very good, well-balanced blueline. This idea that the Pens were somehow screwed on that front is laughable, particularly since everybody and their sister couldn't wait for the likes of Orpik to be cut loose so they could play the young guys. JR screwed himself by signing a useless vet to take on Despres' minutes, when that money could've been allocated much more effectively elsewhere.

JR's moves since the summer have looked much better. But we still have a ways to go before we get back to the point where Shero left us, which is a great regular season team and a 2nd/3rd round playoff out.

 

[mpp9]

JR was handed a team that always breezed through the regular season no matter how many key injuries they sustained, and made it to the 3rd and 2nd rounds in the previous two years, which is a good hand by any reasonable measure. He turned that hand into a bubble playoff team for the past 1.5 years.

Our defense when JR took over holds up to any closer look. Letang, Martin, Maatta, Despres, Dumoulin, and Bortuzzo, with Harrington and Pouliot ready for call-ups, was and is the basis for a very good, well-balanced blueline. This idea that the Pens were somehow screwed on that front is laughable, particularly since everybody and their sister couldn't wait for the likes of Orpik to be cut loose so they could play the young guys. JR screwed himself by signing a useless vet to take on Despres' minutes, when that money could've been allocated much more effectively elsewhere.

JR's moves since the summer have looked much better. But we still have a ways to go before we get back to the point where Shero left us, which is a great regular season team and a 2nd/3rd round playoff out.

That team was no longer a contender when Shero left. Kunitz declined mightily. And Dupuis couldn't stay healthy. That's two "top 6 forwards", of our three that couldn't be counted on any longer in that role. That's just a fact. And we had a ton of unproven defensemen as trade assets. That's not ideal.

I'd characterize it as, the team was on the decline and JR's moves last year weren't good enough.

 

[Darth Vitale]

To the original quesiton, no. He's addressed some of our biggest problems, made only one really stupid mistake IMO and any GM gets at least one pass on those because almost all GMs who take chances (which is required to be successful), make stupid mistakes occasionally.

The front office people are bigger problems than Rutherford. And I'm not convinced he's a problem at all, at this point.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

JR was handed a team that always breezed through the regular season no matter how many key injuries they sustained, and made it to the 3rd and 2nd rounds in the previous two years, which is a good hand by any reasonable measure. He turned that hand into a bubble playoff team for the past 1.5 years.

Our defense when JR took over holds up to any closer look. Letang, Martin, Maatta, Despres, Dumoulin, and Bortuzzo, with Harrington and Pouliot ready for call-ups, was and is the basis for a very good, well-balanced blueline. This idea that the Pens were somehow screwed on that front is laughable, particularly since everybody and their sister couldn't wait for the likes of Orpik to be cut loose so they could play the young guys. JR screwed himself by signing a useless vet to take on Despres' minutes, when that money could've been allocated much more effectively elsewhere.

JR's moves since the summer have looked much better. But we still have a ways to go before we get back to the point where Shero left us, which is a great regular season team and a 2nd/3rd round playoff out.

I'd say JR's turned the team's strength under Shero (defense) into its weakness, but has turned its weakness (ignoring the top six) into its strength. Maybe the two should share notebooks and we'd have a complete team.

The one thing I do like about JR that I hated about Shero was JR seems much more aggressive about filling an obvious hole. It might not always work out like intended (Perron), but at least he doesn't sit on his hands for a decade before fixing obvious issues. Shero, IMO, was too conservative about fixing what needed fixing (and that extends to the coaching position, where JR got rid of a problem pronto compared to Shero re-signing the problem for more years).

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

JR was handed a very good foundation (Sid, Geno, Neal, Letang, Fleury). Doesn't change the fact that he needed to completely revamp a gutted forward corps, and was losing 4 of his top-6 defenseman within a year of arriving (Orpik, Niskanen, Martin, Engelland)--the only one that possibly should've been retained was Niskanen.

It's beyond my comprehension how the fanbase doesn't unanimously roast Shero. The guy was a complete **** up with this team. From his drafting, to this team's development under Shero, to his fetish for aging and over-the-hill vets, to his stubborn, almost spiteful unwillingness to change, adapt and evolve.

**** Shero. JR's a dumbass for completely neglecting the blueline, but Shero's effects have been and will still be felt by this team for years.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah... JR was certainly handed quite the foundation. But let's also remember that Shero was handed a variable treasure trove of awesomeness, himself. Shero did a great job building a competent team around it... at first. The fact alone that he believed in this crazy concept of real depth lines and a defense was revelation enough. But... my god... just look at what he inherited from Patrick. It was time for CP to go by the end... but not before he plucked every single franchise player Shero would lean on for his entire tenure out of their painful blowup/rebuild. Shero proceeded to do diddly-**** at the draft table from there on out. Not an acceptable result in today's league.

Despite all of the proud crowing I STILL hear about Shero's defensive drafting... he didn't even manage one Goligoski, by my estimation.* To say nothing at his pathetic attempts at drafting forwards. Christ... were Shero GM at the time, he'd have probably taken Barker instead of Geno.

I don't get taking up for the guy, either. Just because his replacement is questionable doesn't somehow make him better retroactively.

*EDIT: OK, I'm dumb. Maatta is pretty damned good. Still a lot of hockey for him to play, though.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

That team was no longer a contender when Shero left. Kunitz declined mightily. And Dupuis couldn't stay healthy. That's two "top 6 forwards", of our three that couldn't be counted on any longer in that role. That's just a fact. And we had a ton of unproven defensemen as trade assets. That's not ideal.

I'd characterize it as, the team was on the decline and JR's moves last year weren't good enough.

That team was a game away from the ECF. Citing Dupuis' health issues is equally dubious, considering JR's first year had the benefit of the healthiest our trio of Geno, Sid, and Letang had been in years.

Trade assets aren't the issue here. The NHL roster, as it was constructed, was a 2nd/3rd round playoff team. It became a much worse team, quantifiably in terms of goals and wins, literally as soon as JR took over. That wasn't some inevitable conclusion, it was a direct result of JR's mismanagement.

Shero deserves criticism for not getting this team to do better than it did, and neglecting the forward pool certainly contributed to that. But the Pens' sliding fortunes since the summer of '14 is all on JR.

 

[Darth Vitale]

JR was handed a very good foundation (Sid, Geno, Neal, Letang, Fleury). Doesn't change the fact that he needed to completely revamp a gutted forward corps, and was losing 4 of his top-6 defenseman within a year of arriving (Orpik, Niskanen, Martin, Engelland)--the only one that possibly should've been retained was Niskanen.

It's beyond my comprehension how the fanbase doesn't unanimously roast Shero. The guy was a complete **** up with this team. From his drafting, to this team's development under Shero, to his fetish for aging and over-the-hill vets, to his stubborn, almost spiteful unwillingness to change, adapt and evolve.

**** Shero. JR's a dumbass for completely neglecting the blueline, but Shero's effects have been and will still be felt by this team for years.

I don't totally agree about Shero. He did and tried to do some very good things, but at this point... looking back I'd say it's hard to avoid the conclusion that he in fact did do more harm than good (together with his hockey wife, Bylsma — I think those two clearly reinforced each other's weak points instead of being a compliment to one another). Especially where FA and drafting were concerned.

Put another way, subtract the substantial effort to get Hossa and the successful effort to get Neal and Niskanen, [and what could've been a great move with Iggy], and his body of work was not good. The Staal trade was reasonably good for a guy who was going to walk no matter what. What they actually did with the trade assets we got is another matter. But at least Dumo is now an important part of the team and Pouliot is still young / has time.

The mother of all Shero clusters was a combination of the Scuderi "do over" (another wrong JR has righted) and his refusal to accept reality WRT to guys like Dupuis and Adams. Not that they were similar players, but that he continuously ignored the writing on the wall in terms of age and the future makeup of the club.[The mother of all Bylsma clusters was a combination of All Roads lead to Craig Adams and Tanner Glass, and putting Iggy on the LW like a ****ing moron. And I do mean moron. And his handing of Elmer. That was pretty horendous too.]

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I'd say JR's turned the team's strength under Shero (defense) into its weakness, but has turned its weakness (ignoring the top six) into its strength. Maybe the two should share notebooks and we'd have a complete team.

The one thing I do like about JR that I hated about Shero was JR seems much more aggressive about filling an obvious hole. It might not always work out like intended (Perron), but at least he doesn't sit on his hands for a decade before fixing obvious issues. Shero, IMO, was too conservative about fixing what needed fixing (and that extends to the coaching position, where JR got rid of a problem pronto compared to Shero re-signing the problem for more years).

They both have their faults, to be sure. But Shero's faults resulted in a much better team than Rutherford's have thus far.

I hope I won't be able to say that by late spring.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I WILL say that I think Shero and Bylsma will be better/more successful apart. Especially Shero. Those two had some sort of echo chamber of idiocy going on between them.

 

[mpp9]

That team was a game away from the ECF. Citing Dupuis' health issues is equally dubious, considering JR's first year had the benefit of the healthiest our trio of Geno, Sid, and Letang had been in years.

Trade assets aren't the issue here. The NHL roster, as it was constructed, was a 2nd/3rd round playoff team. It became a much worse team, quantifiably in terms of goals and wins, literally as soon as JR took over. That wasn't some inevitable conclusion, it was a direct result of JR's mismanagement.

Shero deserves criticism for not getting this team to do better than it did, and neglecting the forward pool certainly contributed to that. But the Pens' sliding fortunes since the summer of '14 is all on JR.

He was supposed to magically transition from Orpik, Nisky and Martin to the young guys on defense (who barely played under DB) while trading from that position to address the fact we hadn't developed a regular top 9 forward in years (oft injured Beau Bennett aside).

Acting like that's a cakewalk is a joke, IMO. JR had to take risks if he wanted to keep this team afloat. They didn't pan out last year. They look like they are this year.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

JR was handed a team that always breezed through the regular season no matter how many key injuries they sustained, and made it to the 3rd and 2nd rounds in the previous two years, which is a good hand by any reasonable measure. He turned that hand into a bubble playoff team for the past 1.5 years.

Our defense when JR took over holds up to any closer look. Letang, Martin, Maatta, Despres, Dumoulin, and Bortuzzo, with Harrington and Pouliot ready for call-ups, was and is the basis for a very good, well-balanced blueline. This idea that the Pens were somehow screwed on that front is laughable, particularly since everybody and their sister couldn't wait for the likes of Orpik to be cut loose so they could play the young guys. JR screwed himself by signing a useless vet to take on Despres' minutes, when that money could've been allocated much more effectively elsewhere.

JR's moves since the summer have looked much better. But we still have a ways to go before we get back to the point where Shero left us, which is a great regular season team and a 2nd/3rd round playoff out.

this is just so wrong. this team was in shambles when JR got hired thanks to Shero.

 

[Darth Vitale]

I WILL say that I think Shero and Bylsma will be better/more successful apart. Especially Shero. Those two had some sort of echo chamber of idiocy going on between them.

That's what I was just saying. Those two are a bad match. The weaknesses / bias tendancies are magnified instead of reduced by alternative opinions. They double down on stupid when it comes to old grinders and short-sighted drafting. And on the system they build around their grinders and draft picks. They were the unstoppable facepalm when unified in their thinking.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I WILL say that I think Shero and Bylsma will be better/more successful apart. Especially Shero. Those two had some sort of echo chamber of idiocy going on between them.

The DB angle of Shero's tenure is his biggest mistake. Drafting is right up there with him, and the injuries forced Shero's hands on some of those years making moves and also sitting on his hands as well.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

He was supposed to magically transition from Orpik, Nisky and Martin to the young guys on defense (who barely played under DB) while trading from that position to address the fact we hadn't developed a regular top 9 forward in years (oft injured Beau Bennett aside).

Acting like that's a cakewalk is a joke, IMO. JR had to take risks if he wanted to keep this team afloat. They didn't pan out last year. They look like they are this year.

There's nothing "magical" about it. Orpik was addition by subtraction for this team. Despres was the player who made Martin leaving as a UFA palatable. The blueline make-up I posted earlier shows that the team was in fine shape on that front.

We didn't have a lot of trade assets, but the point is that not trading anything, we were a 2nd/3rd round playoff team. He didn't have to take any risks to keep it afloat...that's totally bunk. JR was tasked with improving the team but has made it worse for 1.5 years.

Things are looking better under Sullivan. But so far, the results under JR have been nothing but disappointing, and it's nobody's fault but his own.