POLL: How many cups do the Pens have today if Sullivan/Rutherford era started in 09-10?

[WesMantooth]

Just for fun...

The Penguins wasted 6 good years and possible cup wins between the 2010 and 2015 seasons. How many cups do the Pens win if Sullivan/Rutherford era started in 2009-10?

Here's the list of winners in those years (who we would've had to beat)

2010 - Chicago Blackhawks (over PHI)
2011 - Boston Bruins (over VAN)
2012 - LA Kings (over NJD)
2013 - Chicago Blackhawks (over BOS)
2014 - LA Kings (over NYR)
2015 - Chicago Blackhawks (over TBL)

Click to read more...

 

[ColePens]

Honestly I love Sully/JR but sometimes I think the natural progression of how this went was perfect. The troublesome times turned into an understanding of just how important it is to win when you have a chance. Maybe if they won a lot earlier, they wouldn't have the same instinct to make it through last year. And who knows.. maybe Sully doesn't evolve into the coach he turned into. While the idea of this thread makes sense, I just don't think any of this happens without the journey we went through. Everything that happened led to this point.

I'll probably get heat for that, but everything ended up perfect. That's all you can ask for. I'll stay with 3... MAYBE 4 at the most. I just don't think they win last year if the hunger and all the trouble they went through in 2010-2015 didn't happen. Sid/Geno were on a whole different level as they led the team to the 5th overall Cup.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

I don't think Shero did that bad of a job to be honest
His biggest mistake was probably hanging on to Disco too long
He made moves when needed to help the team for Cup runs. It's DB who just didn't know how to use the guys

 

[Giskard]

I don't think that they could create a so fine tuned team like this earlier. Everything went so damn perfect in this last years, that is unbelievable how good this team is now. Kessel, Hornqvist & Brassard were available at the right time for us to get them. We drafted a couple of unbelievable steals in Murray and Guentzel. Geno and Sid stayed healthy after the scary early 2010's years. And those dark years made them so hungry that Sid is on a mission every f***ing play-off series.

 

[DeadPuckEra]

I don’t know how many more cups they would have won, I’m sure they would have had more “opportunities” though - making the finals.

Shero’s inability to draft at positions of need really hampered this team. He always took who he deemed to be the best player available (regardless of need) and seemingly viewed prospects primarily as currency. Bylsma, was not the right guy for this group.

It ultimately comes down to Shero though. He himself had the ability to put together some capable rosters - but he sacarificed years of Crosby and Malkin’s prime (opportunities) because he didn’t want to replace the coach - which just got weird at one point - giving him an extension when everyone was expecting him to be let go.

I think what Ray accomplished with this team early on is to be commended. His later years, and the attachment to Bylsma really tarnished his legacy here and there’s no excuse for it. Wasted years of potential.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

Shero did a solid job for us and it's being paying off for years now
Murray, Guentzel, Rust, Kuhn, Jarry all drafted by him
I believe he also signed Connor Sheary
I still think had he not been so hard headed with DB, he would have probably saved his job couple of years ago

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

Agree with everyone about Bylsma. I don't know about any more Cups though. That's very difficult to argue, if for nothing else than the fact that Phil Kessel wasn't available for trade back then. Now would Shero have even had the balls to make that deal? I don't know. I remember people being pretty in favor of most trades Shero did make though. The year the Bruins stonewalled us involved three trades that I thought everyone more or less liked, when in reality we got slower and it hurt us.

It took a loooong time for people to worry about dealing draft picks though. In the middle of it all, the mentality was always "the future is now", at least how I remember it.

 

[ziggyjoe212]

It doesn't work like this.

In 2016 we had Rust, Sheary, Kuhn, and Murray fall onto our laps. Guentzel in 2017. Who's to say JR would have let MAF walk as UFA and signed Brian Elliot instead? Or kept Whitney and never acquired Kunitz?

It worked out well but there is NOTHING to suggest that Sullivan/JR would have fared better than 1 SC and 2 SC appearances 2008-2015.

 

[EightyOne]

The Pens had some front loaded teams though. Where players weren't used quite right. It would have been less of a letdown for half a decade.

This is just an exercise in thought.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don’t know how many more cups they would have won, I’m sure they would have had more “opportunities” though - making the finals.

Shero’s inability to draft at positions of need really hampered this team. He always took who he deemed to be the best player available (regardless of need) and seemingly viewed prospects primarily as currency. Bylsma, was not the right guy for this group.

It ultimately comes down to Shero though. He himself had the ability to put together some capable rosters - but he sacarificed years of Crosby and Malkin’s prime (opportunities) because he didn’t want to replace the coach - which just got weird at one point - giving him an extension when everyone was expecting him to be let go.

I think what Ray accomplished with this team early on is to be commended. His later years, and the attachment to Bylsma really tarnished his legacy here and there’s no excuse for it. Wasted years of potential.

Yeah, if only Shero would’ve drafted Maatta, Guentzel, Rust and Murray while he was hear and signed a free agent like Conor Sheary, we would have been a much better team.

At least we’ve seen a steady flow of Penguins draft picks since Rutherford came in play on the big squad. Like, you know.. Simon and Sprong and uh... who else?

I guess Rutherford went to back to back Cup appearance which may have effected his drafting process though.. Shero doesn’t have that.. oh wait.

 

[WayneSid9987]

I'll say they CHALLENGE for atleast 2 more cups.
That means reach the final.
Whether they win them or not...dunno.

But with just JR, i think there would have been a better mix/more talent surrounding Sid and Geno.
JR understands the banger with some skill vs the pure sniper skill mix and the need for both that Shero did not.

Even with the cap crunch, i see JR robbing peter to pay paul instead of relying on AHL'ers(Gibbons, etc.) to play wing beside Sid or G. So more trades for top 6 wingers during his hypothetical helm.

JR is open to selecting euro F's in the first round, Shero is not(while he was here, anyway.)
JR at the helm, Forsberg is likely a Penguin right now.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

There is such a butterfly effect with moves that I don't even want to mess with a scenario that results in what we've accomplished.

I think a lot of harsh lessons were learned that have resulted in a more resilient Penguins team than we've ever seen before.

 

[DeadPuckEra]

Yeah, if only Shero would’ve drafted Maatta, Guentzel, Rust and Murray while he was hear and signed a free agent like Conor Sheary, we would have been a much better team.

At least we’ve seen a steady flow of Penguins draft picks since Rutherford came in play on the big squad. Like, you know.. Simon and Sprong and uh... who else?

I guess Rutherford went to back to back Cup appearance which may have effected his drafting process though.. Shero doesn’t have that.. oh wait.

Hey Ray, you seem upset... your draft record is dodgy at best outside of the obvious choices. Maybe it was your developmental process that sucked, I don’t know.

 

[Gurglesons]

Hey Ray, we won’t talk about the decade plus of piss poor drafting prior. Too little too late.

So you had some third round + picks work out. Neat.

And if Sprong doesn’t work out where does the criticism lie with JR’s drafting?

 

[DeadPuckEra]

JR can get it too.

However I’m talking about Shero, and his inability to draft players at positions of need. For the better part of a decade, we were lean at the wing position and Ray continued to burn 1st and second rounders on Defensmen and goalies, and Beau Bennet.

 

[DeadPuckEra]

Go back and actually look at his/your drafting. Just google Penguins draft history.

 

[madinsomniac]

Here is the thing....

A.) Sully learned a lot in between his coaching stints... if we get him earlier its probable he doesnt have the same strategies and philosophies... moreover its possible he isnt as open to the young guys... it truely was the perfect storm of him coaching those guys then getting brought up to the NHL team as they were... that totally let him buy into the concept of using them up here

B.) I dont know if the team has the same buy in if this happens in 09... maybe they do, but his system is a lot more self sacrifice and hard work, while Bylsma was fun and gun.... im not sure the Pens were ready for this style back then

 

[Fatty McLardy]

i would say atleast 1 more.

 

[Turin]

Maybe none. Probably none actually. The cap was different and JR probably wouldn’t have drafted Guentzel, Rust and Murray. There’s probably no Neal thus no Hornqvist. Who knows what happens with Staal, so probably no Kessel. It’s impossible to say what would have happened.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Hard to tell how many they would have won because obviously a lot of things would also change, but I'm confident if 87 and 71 didn't get injured, under Sullivan they would have wrecked the league in 10-11 and 11-12.

 

[billybudd]

I'm with the guy who referenced the Butterfly Effect. For a more recent example, look at the Perron trade. Taken in isolation, that trade was horrible. But Perron was then traded for Hagelin, who was a key contributor in turning the team's fortunes around. If JR never makes the bad trade for Perron, there's a good chance he never makes the good trade for Hagelin. What happens then? Do we win two cups without Hagelin? Maybe we don't.

Hard to tell how many they would have won because obviously a lot of things would also change, but I'm confident if 87 and 71 didn't get injured, under Sullivan they would have wrecked the league in 10-11 and 11-12.

That's a lot of 'ifs,' though.

If Crosby doesn't take that hit in the Winter Classic, does the NHL get serious on supplemental discipline (more serious, anyway)? If it doesn't, who on the Penguins gets lost to cheap shots?

How much of the Penguins new maturity is as a result of age and experience, rather than coaching? Letang, in particular, loses his cool a lot less than he used to. Is that because of Sullivan or because he's a 30 year old father who survived a stroke and not still a 24 year old bachelor who thinks he's invincible?

 

[Pancakes]

Honestly I love Sully/JR but sometimes I think the natural progression of how this went was perfect. The troublesome times turned into an understanding of just how important it is to win when you have a chance. Maybe if they won a lot earlier, they wouldn't have the same instinct to make it through last year. And who knows.. maybe Sully doesn't evolve into the coach he turned into. While the idea of this thread makes sense, I just don't think any of this happens without the journey we went through. Everything that happened led to this point.

I'll probably get heat for that, but everything ended up perfect. That's all you can ask for. I'll stay with 3... MAYBE 4 at the most. I just don't think they win last year if the hunger and all the trouble they went through in 2010-2015 didn't happen. Sid/Geno were on a whole different level as they led the team to the 5th overall Cup.

I agree with this. Things worked out perfectly so it's hard to speculate.

The bigger what if for me is how many we have if Sid doesn't get the injuries he's had. Bylsma/Fleury or no I feel like we win at least one more between 2009-now if Sid doesn't miss years of his prime. He probably has 2 more Art Ross trophies too.

But all things considered can't complain with how things have turned out. Even Mario didn't get 3.

 

[ColePens]

I do question Shero's learning ability to stop getting rentals. I think rentals work in a sense if you are going to make a run. But i keep seeing these younger teams go for rentals. NJ grabbed two players when there is no way in hell I believed that team would be fighting for a Cup. So why did they not just keep getting draft picks and build to the future? Or use those picks to get SIGNED players. I really think the game is evolving to the point where rentals are pointless. ELCs are more important or players with contracts left.

You see it more-so in today's game. JR will grab rentals if it makes sense in a scenario (Letang out, defensive depth in 2017). But this year he stuck to players with a contract left. I like that. Even if we lose, Brassard is here next year. It's smart. What is Shero going to do with his rentals?

 

[Pengwins]

Seems like the year we were up 3-1 on NYR and lost that we should have won the Cup that year

 

[Turin]

Seems like the year we were up 3-1 on NYR and lost that we should have won the Cup that year

If Crosby’s wrist wasn’t broken, maybe. But then Bylsma never leaves either. That team was really damn weak in the bottom six.