POLL: How many cups do the Pens have today if Sullivan/Rutherford era started in 09-10?

[madinsomniac]

I do question Shero's learning ability to stop getting rentals. I think rentals work in a sense if you are going to make a run. But i keep seeing these younger teams go for rentals. NJ grabbed two players when there is no way in hell I believed that team would be fighting for a Cup. So why did they not just keep getting draft picks and build to the future? Or use those picks to get SIGNED players. I really think the game is evolving to the point where rentals are pointless. ELCs are more important or players with contracts left.

You see it more-so in today's game. JR will grab rentals if it makes sense in a scenario (Letang out, defensive depth in 2017). But this year he stuck to players with a contract left. I like that. Even if we lose, Brassard is here next year. It's smart. What is Shero going to do with his rentals?

Because old school train of thought fears young guys in the playoffs... often less talented, low potential, but well known quantities are preferred. With most vets, you know what you are getting more or less... thats why they get them over letting a sheary or Jake type show off what he can do....

 

[NeedleInTheHay]

I think they win in 2014 too, that was a poor season for top teams.

What happens if they draft Kessel instead of Staal?

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I would imagine if you went back in time and made that one change the world would be close to ending if not already gone.

 

[mpp9]

Honestly I love Sully/JR but sometimes I think the natural progression of how this went was perfect. The troublesome times turned into an understanding of just how important it is to win when you have a chance. Maybe if they won a lot earlier, they wouldn't have the same instinct to make it through last year. And who knows.. maybe Sully doesn't evolve into the coach he turned into. While the idea of this thread makes sense, I just don't think any of this happens without the journey we went through. Everything that happened led to this point.

I'll probably get heat for that, but everything ended up perfect. That's all you can ask for. I'll stay with 3... MAYBE 4 at the most. I just don't think they win last year if the hunger and all the trouble they went through in 2010-2015 didn't happen. Sid/Geno were on a whole different level as they led the team to the 5th overall Cup.

Agreed. I’d argue even MJ forcing us to win 2-1 games and making Sid/Geno play 200 ft led to their turnaround under Sullivan. Similar to MT and DB.

Plus we don’t have Kessel fall in our laps in 2009. We may not win another Cup without him.

 

[mpp9]

I do question Shero's learning ability to stop getting rentals. I think rentals work in a sense if you are going to make a run. But i keep seeing these younger teams go for rentals. NJ grabbed two players when there is no way in hell I believed that team would be fighting for a Cup. So why did they not just keep getting draft picks and build to the future? Or use those picks to get SIGNED players. I really think the game is evolving to the point where rentals are pointless. ELCs are more important or players with contracts left.

You see it more-so in today's game. JR will grab rentals if it makes sense in a scenario (Letang out, defensive depth in 2017). But this year he stuck to players with a contract left. I like that. Even if we lose, Brassard is here next year. It's smart. What is Shero going to do with his rentals?

The right rental can work. Kane pretty much got SJ to where they are now.

 

[Peat]

I feel like if Sullivan - as he is now - had been here all the way through with the teams we had then, based on what people say, I think there's a good chance we'd have won a cup in that period.


Whether starting the whole era with those two - as they are now, and I appreciate they both did some vital learning elsewhere with other teams in that time - would have resulted in getting a more dominant team earlier and more cups... I dunno. As people say, there's so much butterfly effect. And it's not just about those two. I feel like our scouting got so much better after Randy Sexton got here and then became head of amateur scouting - does Rutherford make that change? Or does he make a similar change earlier? Do they persuade Martin to come here? Hire a goaltending coach earlier? How much was recovery from bankruptcy affecting coaching, scouting, facilities and all that back then?


In general though... if two guys had come in and done a better job than Shero and Disco Dan, I feel like it's a decent bet we'd have more cups than we have now.

I do question Shero's learning ability to stop getting rentals. I think rentals work in a sense if you are going to make a run. But i keep seeing these younger teams go for rentals. NJ grabbed two players when there is no way in hell I believed that team would be fighting for a Cup. So why did they not just keep getting draft picks and build to the future? Or use those picks to get SIGNED players. I really think the game is evolving to the point where rentals are pointless. ELCs are more important or players with contracts left.

You see it more-so in today's game. JR will grab rentals if it makes sense in a scenario (Letang out, defensive depth in 2017). But this year he stuck to players with a contract left. I like that. Even if we lose, Brassard is here next year. It's smart. What is Shero going to do with his rentals?

The only good rationalisation I've heard of it is that it gets everyone into the right mindset and ensures everyone gets to that first play-offs so they can taste it and want to get back more.

Which is fine to a point but what's gonna be the excuse next year? Oh well. Could be worse for NJ, they coulda paid a 1st and a 2nd for Hanzal...

 

[Gurglesons]

I feel like if Sullivan - as he is now - had been here all the way through with the teams we had then, based on what people say, I think there's a good chance we'd have won a cup in that period.


Whether starting the whole era with those two - as they are now, and I appreciate they both did some vital learning elsewhere with other teams in that time - would have resulted in getting a more dominant team earlier and more cups... I dunno. As people say, there's so much butterfly effect. And it's not just about those two. I feel like our scouting got so much better after Randy Sexton got here and then became head of amateur scouting - does Rutherford make that change? Or does he make a similar change earlier? Do they persuade Martin to come here? Hire a goaltending coach earlier? How much was recovery from bankruptcy affecting coaching, scouting, facilities and all that back then?


In general though... if two guys had come in and done a better job than Shero and Disco Dan, I feel like it's a decent bet we'd have more cups than we have now.



The only good rationalisation I've heard of it is that it gets everyone into the right mindset and ensures everyone gets to that first play-offs so they can taste it and want to get back more.

Which is fine to a point but what's gonna be the excuse next year? Oh well. Could be worse for NJ, they coulda paid a 1st and a 2nd for Hanzal...

Or a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd for Tatar.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I think they win in 2014 too, that was a poor season for top teams.

What happens if they draft Kessel instead of Staal?

I'd think they'd lose him quicker than they did Staal. Think cap back then and Crosby and Malkins kicking in first.

2013 is all I think they had a real chance at since you can say those big injuries still happen no matter the coach.

 

[Shady Machine]

Too hard to know and definitely butterfly effect stuff, but I said one more for fun. My thinking is that JR would take chances on players Shero wouldn't. Anyone actually think Shero would have traded for Kessel? Of course, there aren't many Kessels out there, but I'm confident JR would have done whatever he could to trade for talented wingers for his star players. Having said that, the game was different even in 2010 than it is today so who know if that strategy would have let to more Cups.

We can't get the Sully of today back in 2010, but if we had, I wonder if his message doesn't resonate with 25 year old star players. Maybe they needed to go through the grind of defeat and disappointment before hearing his message.

 

[Shady Machine]

Agreed. I’d argue even MJ forcing us to win 2-1 games and making Sid/Geno play 200 ft led to their turnaround under Sullivan. Similar to MT and DB.

Plus we don’t have Kessel fall in our laps in 2009. We may not win another Cup without him.

We don't have Kessel fall into our lap in 2009 but we may have in 2006. But that's a whole other discussion ha!

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Too hard to know and definitely butterfly effect stuff, but I said one more for fun. My thinking is that JR would take chances on players Shero wouldn't. Anyone actually think Shero would have traded for Kessel? Of course, there aren't many Kessels out there, but I'm confident JR would have done whatever he could to trade for talented wingers for his star players. Having said that, the game was different even in 2010 than it is today so who know if that strategy would have let to more Cups.

We can't get the Sully of today back in 2010, but if we had, I wonder if his message doesn't resonate with 25 year old star players. Maybe they needed to go through the grind of defeat and disappointment before hearing his message.

The great thing about JR is his age..he wasnt some young GM just starting out worried about his career. He was already near the end of it..and made some bold moves that worked in our favor because of that. Dont even think he was planning on staying this long, but with this success and current run..hes still going.

Perfect timing.

As for the missed opportunities..only thing Id change is knocking off 2 years before this run started. Would have been nice if our top guys were 28-29 right now extending our window instead of 30-31 but cant complain after these last two cups

 

[JTG]

I think they probably would have had one more, but the biggest difference is that the team wouldn't have beat itself so many times.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Who knows. Sully's stance coming in here was a view from the outside looking in. If he's here already does he have the answer? Does he have the balls to down check meal tickets?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Timing is everything.

Don't muddle that shit up with what if's, even if for fun.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

I don’t know how many more cups they would have won, I’m sure they would have had more “opportunities” though - making the finals.

Shero’s inability to draft at positions of need really hampered this team. He always took who he deemed to be the best player available (regardless of need) and seemingly viewed prospects primarily as currency. Bylsma, was not the right guy for this group.

It ultimately comes down to Shero though. He himself had the ability to put together some capable rosters - but he sacarificed years of Crosby and Malkin’s prime (opportunities) because he didn’t want to replace the coach - which just got weird at one point - giving him an extension when everyone was expecting him to be let go.

I think what Ray accomplished with this team early on is to be commended. His later years, and the attachment to Bylsma really tarnished his legacy here and there’s no excuse for it. Wasted years of potential.

Sums up the Shero era pretty perfectly.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I think they probably would have had one more, but the biggest difference is that the team wouldn't have beat itself so many times.

Pretty much what I was gonna say. One, maybe two more. JR seems to give a shit about surrounding Sid and Geno with the best players and the best fits he can, and Sully gets this team. Both have done more in the past 3 years than Shero/Bylsma did in their entire tenure.

 

[KIRK]

Honestly I love Sully/JR but sometimes I think the natural progression of how this went was perfect. The troublesome times turned into an understanding of just how important it is to win when you have a chance. Maybe if they won a lot earlier, they wouldn't have the same instinct to make it through last year. And who knows.. maybe Sully doesn't evolve into the coach he turned into. While the idea of this thread makes sense, I just don't think any of this happens without the journey we went through. Everything that happened led to this point.

I'll probably get heat for that, but everything ended up perfect. That's all you can ask for. I'll stay with 3... MAYBE 4 at the most. I just don't think they win last year if the hunger and all the trouble they went through in 2010-2015 didn't happen. Sid/Geno were on a whole different level as they led the team to the 5th overall Cup.

Good call. Thinking against LA was where there would've been a better chance than not.

 

[KIRK]

Yeah, if only Shero would’ve drafted Maatta, Guentzel, Rust and Murray while he was hear and signed a free agent like Conor Sheary, we would have been a much better team.

At least we’ve seen a steady flow of Penguins draft picks since Rutherford came in play on the big squad. Like, you know.. Simon and Sprong and uh... who else?

I guess Rutherford went to back to back Cup appearance which may have effected his drafting process though.. Shero doesn’t have that.. oh wait.

Oh wait . . . I was unaware that the draft is the only way to maintain a cup contender.

JR is a horse trader who for better or worse is willing to upset the apple cart.

Shero, as GM of the Penguins, became risk averse once the Pens won the cup, preferring only to leverage futures to rent pieces.

The former type of GM tends to win more cups than the latter.

 

[Gurglesons]

Oh wait . . . I was unaware that the draft is the only way to maintain a cup contender.

JR is a horse trader who for better or worse is willing to upset the apple cart.

Shero, as GM of the Penguins, became risk averse once the Pens won the cup, preferring only to leverage futures to rent pieces.

The former type of GM tends to win more cups than the latter.

Rutherford already sealed up his bid at being a better GM than Shero with the back to back wins.

Doesn’t mean that Shero didn’t draft three extremely important pieces of that team and a variety of other utility players. Criticizing Shero’s drafting is just stupid at this point.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Rutherford already sealed up his bid at being a better GM than Shero with the back to back wins.

Doesn’t mean that Shero didn’t draft three extremely important pieces of that team and a variety of other utility players. Criticizing Shero’s drafting is just stupid at this point.

What about criticizing the team's development of prospects under Shero? Do we just laugh and shrug off the near fetish-levels of adoration for plugs like Scuderi, Eaton, Adams, Glass, etc.?

If we're docking points for guys from previous regimes, surely we're gonna take points away from Shero/Bylsma for winning a Cup with a team that was drafted and largely constructed by Craig Patrick, right?

It's great that we found a lot of the present guys during the Shero/Bylsma era. That doesn't mean they'd be developed or given a chance like they have been during the JR/Sully era. As a matter of fact, I'd assume the opposite would happen. We'd still have the Taylor Pyatts, Cal O'Reillys, Mike Comries, Chris Bourques, etc. because Shero's stance was "Sid and Geno can make due with junkyard trash" and his buddy-buddy coach was a wholly incompetent dunce.

 

[KIRK]

Rutherford already sealed up his bid at being a better GM than Shero with the back to back wins.

Doesn’t mean that Shero didn’t draft three extremely important pieces of that team and a variety of other utility players. Criticizing Shero’s drafting is just stupid at this point.

Because he drafted Maatta, Murray, Rust, and Guentzel?

I view Ray Shero's draft record less favorably than Craig Patrick's, and that really is saying something . . .

Forget Sid, Geno, and Fluery. Consider them a wash with Staal.

Maatta? Patrick drafted Orpik in a similar slot.

Murray, Rust, Guentzel? Patrick left Shero with Letang, Gologoski, Malone, Armstrong, Scuderi, and Talbot.

And don't forget Ryan Whitney . . . compare that #5 overall pick to what Ray Shero did with his #8 overall.

The only thing that is stupid at this point is criticizing anyone who criticizes a GM (Shero) with a poorer draft history outside of the top 3 picks than Craig Patrick had in his last 7 years.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

What about criticizing the team's development of prospects under Shero? Do we just laugh and shrug off the near fetish-levels of adoration for plugs like Scuderi, Eaton, Adams, Glass, etc.?

If we're docking points for guys from previous regimes, surely we're gonna take points away from Shero/Bylsma for winning a Cup with a team that was drafted and largely constructed by Craig Patrick, right?

It's great that we found a lot of the present guys during the Shero/Bylsma era. That doesn't mean they'd be developed or given a chance like they have been during the JR/Sully era. As a matter of fact, I'd assume the opposite would happen. We'd still have the Taylor Pyatts, Cal O'Reillys, Mike Comries, Chris Bourques, etc. because Shero's stance was "Sid and Geno can make due with junkyard trash" and his buddy-buddy coach was a wholly incompetent dunce.

9 players on that team were drafted or acquired by Patrick, which includes 3 players who were drafted top 2 overall as well as Kris Letang, who you already established wasn't a big contributor anyway.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

9 players on that team were drafted or acquired by Patrick, which includes 3 players who were drafted top 2 overall as well as Kris Letang, who you already established wasn't a big contributor anyway.

Addressed my error regarding Letang in 09, but you're welcome to continue to rattle around your sad little pitchfork if you're that bored and petty.

As for the roster, you say "nine players" as if it weren't the guys entirely responsible for the team's victory, namely Sid (15g, 16a, 31pts (!)), Geno (14g, 22a, 36pts (!!)), Gonchar, Fleury, and then guys like Orpik, Kennedy, and Talbot. But yeah, just nine random guys.

Ray Shero and Dan Bylsma were frauds when they were here. Bylsma was wholly incompetent, and it shows with how he absolutely bombed out in Buffalo and isn't even on the radar of NHL jobs anymore. While Shero held strong to an arrogant, almost spiteful line of "Sid and Geno are so good they don't need help", put a family atmosphere and personal attachments to players/coaches above winning, and had a ridiculous drafting/development strategy that was ass backwards. Sure, draft an entire stable of elite, great skating, PMD and trade off the ones you don't need/want for help at forward. Great. But you have to actually let them play and develop in order to grow into effective, impact NHLers and/or gain value as assets instead of constantly signing the Scuderis and Eatons of the world.

Shero and Bylsma left a shattered, smoldering wreckage in their wake and, quite honestly, it's a damn miracle that JR and Sully have been able to do what they've done and so quickly. The 2013-14 Penguins roster had such illustrious names as Tanner Glass, Craig Adams, Lee Stempniak, Jayson Megna, Beau Bennett, Chris Conner, Taylor Pyatt, Chuck Kobasew, Harry Zolnierczyk, Marcel Goc, Matt D'Agostini, Andrew Ebbett, Dustin Jeffrey, and Zach Sill. That's the kind of work JR had to do. And while he hasn't been perfect, to do what he's done with regard to reshaping and establishing an identity in as short a time as he has... They should build the tiny old man a statue.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Yinz sure love relitigating the past, I guess?

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

Hard to say.

Everything has turned out great overall. I dunno.