Post-Game Talk: Plus/Minus: Pens vs Bolts - Crosby scores means we got to our game

[Ogrezilla]

A little stability in terms of linemates, and especially a playmaking winger will help him. Either play DJ there and put Kobe on the other side, and let them play together, or else play BB there.

On paper a Dupuis/Sutter/Kobe line looks fine, but I think Sutter will get lost in the shuffle offensively there, but that could be a reasonable shutdown line.

ya the offense of that line would just be all three of them throwing pucks at the net.

 

[Captain Hook]

I don't see any difference between Sutter in his Carolina days vs. what he is in Pittsburgh. He's always played a fairly quiet game and almost all his sporadic offense comes off the rush. It was the same thing in Carolina.

 

[mpp9]

ya the offense of that line would just be all three of them throwing pucks at the net.

That'd be a line where all the corsi worshipers can have a field day. They wouldn't spend much time in their end, and they can shoot pucks on net all they want.

If we're stacking Sid and Geno's lines, our bottom six just needs to occasionally produce.

 

[DegenX]

As far as his "engagement" or whatever you want to call it compared to what we saw from him against us in Carolina, I think some of that might be playing a somewhat different role. For us, he's a part of a shutdown unit. In Carolina, he was basically tasked with shadowing Sid or Geno every shift. It might have gotten him fired up to have that direct match-up like that. Or I might have just pulled this from my ass

I definitely agree with Jacob about the playoffs. He just looked tired. Like he had no idea how hard the playoffs would be.

Well, it was his first time, and all.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Well, it was his first time, and all.

right. I didn't mean that as an insult. That really was probably what happened.

 

[#66]

To expand on Sutter... Does anyone remember in the first game of the year last season when he popped Briere when he was cutting across the blueline? It wasn't like a highlight reel hit but it was something I made notice of. I guess I mistakenly thought that was going to be a part of his repertoire but overall he proved to be very non-physical. Even statistically, he averaged slightly less hits than he did in previous seasons with only 30 in 48.

One other moment from last season that stood out to me is one of the OT games in the playoffs (against Ottawa I think), basically Sutter was very obviously completely out of gas during all of his shifts and he looked like he was digging down way more than any other player just to keep up with the play. His body language looked like someone that had been caught on the ice for an extended (2+ minute) penalty kill, even though he was just coming over the boards to *start* a shift.

So maybe he had a crummy offseason, an injury, the condensed schedule really taxed his body, or a combination of those.

So you've got a kid that needs to use his size more but also needs to build up his strength and endurance and I hope that's what I'm starting to see now with a more physical and more engaging Sutter. He already has 12 hits in 5 games this season so the staff must have made it a point for him to make a greater impact in that aspect of the game. I don't expect him to keep that pace up hitting-wise but it's promising, to me. He's still got a spindly body and he's also still pretty young (a year younger than Jeffrey, even) so he's still got room to grow, in more ways than one.

Anyway, in a nutshell I was critical of Sutter's lack of impact last season especially in the playoffs but I've seen improvement to start this season. When the team gets healthy and he gets improved linemates hopefully it'll be even more noticeable.

Post of the day. I think he has these swings in his game because he's so damn thin. He must finish the year at 170.

Again I'll go back to me not liking his fit on the team because the Pens down graded that third line center position but didn't beef up the top 6. I guess Neal got some of that Staal money and the cap did go down this year but this summer should have been about... Kunitz or Dupuis instead of Kunitz and Dupuis.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Post of the day. I think he has these swings in his game because he's so damn thin. He must finish the year at 170.

Again I'll go back to me not liking his fit on the team because the Pens down graded that third line center position but didn't beef up the top 6. I guess Neal got some of that Staal money and the cap did go down this year but this summer should have been about... Kunitz or Dupuis instead of Kunitz and Dupuis.

I just feel like this team, the way they play and the type of players they have, would be better served to have a 3rd line center like Ott, Bolland, or O'Reilly.

I'd think hard about dealing Sutter + one of our D to get O'Reilly from Colorado. They already have Duchene, Mackinnon, and Stastny at C. I believe ROR was moved to wing for a while last year.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Staal is making 6 mil a year and has 1 assist through 6 games. He was never a solution for us for any of our needs at that price.

 

[JTG]

To expand on Sutter... Does anyone remember in the first game of the year last season when he popped Briere when he was cutting across the blueline? It wasn't like a highlight reel hit but it was something I made notice of. I guess I mistakenly thought that was going to be a part of his repertoire but overall he proved to be very non-physical. Even statistically, he averaged slightly less hits than he did in previous seasons with only 30 in 48.

One other moment from last season that stood out to me is one of the OT games in the playoffs (against Ottawa I think), basically Sutter was very obviously completely out of gas during all of his shifts and he looked like he was digging down way more than any other player just to keep up with the play. His body language looked like someone that had been caught on the ice for an extended (2+ minute) penalty kill, even though he was just coming over the boards to *start* a shift.

So maybe he had a crummy offseason, an injury, the condensed schedule really taxed his body, or a combination of those.

So you've got a kid that needs to use his size more but also needs to build up his strength and endurance and I hope that's what I'm starting to see now with a more physical and more engaging Sutter. He already has 12 hits in 5 games this season so the staff must have made it a point for him to make a greater impact in that aspect of the game. I don't expect him to keep that pace up hitting-wise but it's promising, to me. He's still got a spindly body and he's also still pretty young (a year younger than Jeffrey, even) so he's still got room to grow, in more ways than one.

Anyway, in a nutshell I was critical of Sutter's lack of impact last season especially in the playoffs but I've seen improvement to start this season. When the team gets healthy and he gets improved linemates hopefully it'll be even more noticeable.

Real solid post. I have often wondered the mentality of Sutter since the trade. In Carolina, he sort of had somewhere to go. He was a 1st round pick and he was getting better quality mins. Here, he's a 3rd line center. The situation is what it is. I often wondered what the mental impact something like that has.

Last season, he showed spurts of what he's capable of. Last preseason, I thought he looked fantastic. He was scoring goals, engaging physically, and really had the look of a mini-Staal. He regressed as the season went on.

I also think he sort of gets the Staal treatment because he has been in the league for so long now. He's played over 300 games and he's only 24. That kind of plays a mind trick on you because with that many games played, you think he's older than he really is.

The thing with Sutter is that I'm not sure he's going to get bigger, because he really hasn't since being drafted. Now whether that's genetics or an average strength routine in the summer, who knows. Someone did post something where Sutter said that he has tried to add weight and he just cannot do it, which I know has been the case for a few players that have passed through here...Colby Armstrong is one, and I think Ryan Whitney was another. Whitney had a huge frame, but was listed at 200 lbs. Quite slender for a guy of his size.

 

[FDBluth]

The one GOOD thing I will say about KCD is that even when they KD are fumbling pucks all over the place, they still create a TON of turnovers--especially in the offensive zone. They'll always create a ton of chances that way, and Sid will more often than not find one of Kunitz or Dupuis for a goal pretty much every game.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Kobasew has no business in the top 6 over Dupuis. None at all. He's just not as good at hockey.

He doesn't but he does play a simple game.
He chips pucks deep, goes in with some speed and goes to the net.
He does a couple of things that Dupuis and Bennett sometimes don't do or forget to do.

I wasn't opposed to switching out Bennett the other night. Just opposed to benching him. Bennett can play top 6 or bottom 6 and be effective. The shifts he was given, he wasn't very good. Thats on him, not the coach.

When Neal comes back Bennett needs to embrace his 3rd line role and play good responsible 2-way hockey. It'll help us in the long run. If KCD gets shut down, the other lines will have to pick up the slack.

 

[ss53mech]

He doesn't but he does play a simple game.
He chips pucks deep, goes in with some speed and goes to the net.
He does a couple of things that Dupuis and Bennett sometimes don't do or forget to do.

I wasn't opposed to switching out Bennett the other night. Just opposed to benching him. Bennett can play top 6 or bottom 6 and be effective. The shifts he was given, he wasn't very good. Thats on him, not the coach.

When Neal comes back Bennett needs to embrace his 3rd line role and play good responsible 2-way hockey. It'll help us in the long run. If KCD gets shut down, the other lines will have to pick up the slack.

Sorry man but I just strongly disagree with you here. While I will concede that it was probably Bennett's worst game of the season he was still skating well, defensively responsible and aware on the ice. You'll note that those qualities are pretty much the only thing the likes of dupuis normally has going for himself. I haven't seen a game that Bennett dressed where he hasn't looked more dangerous than Dupuis.

Granted this is all my opinion, and you're certainly entitled to yours but, I (like some others) can't imagine a scenario where the Pens aren't a better team with Beau in the top 6 and dupuis in the bottom 6. I have in depth theories as to why I strongly believe this will work but I'll spare you the details.

Basically I don't agree that Beau played himself off the ice. He was good enough in every zone to keep the minutes he's been getting if not rated the odd shift on the "top" line to see what he's capable of with sid.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Sorry man but I just strongly disagree with you here. While I will concede that it was probably Bennett's worst game of the season he was still skating well, defensively responsible and aware on the ice. You'll note that those qualities are pretty much the only thing the likes of dupuis normally has going for himself. I haven't seen a game that Bennett dressed where he hasn't looked more dangerous than Dupuis.

Granted this is all my opinion, and you're certainly entitled to yours but, I (like some others) can't imagine a scenario where the Pens aren't a better team with Beau in the top 6 and dupuis in the bottom 6. I have in depth theories as to why I strongly believe this will work but I'll spare you the details.

Basically I don't agree that Beau played himself off the ice. He was good enough in every zone to keep the minutes he's been getting if not rated the odd shift on the "top" line to see what he's capable of with sid.

Playing Bennett in the top six and dropping down Dupuis, i agree with. It should make this team better but it's not the end all, be all for this club imo. If it's fact were moving forward with KCD, the other 3 lines will have to pick up the slack. Thats the bottom line here really.

It could be the same way if K-C-Bennett get shut down in the playoffs. You're going to need other lines to pick up the slack. It's a team game.

This roster has more potential to do just that though, imo. The bottom six last year consisted of the slow and ineffective Morrow and Iginla . Cooke was a non-factor as well.

I'd like to see another solid bottom sixer picked up at the deadline unless they make a bigger trade and get real top six help. Will be hard to do though if Voukon comes back and they hang on to Niksanen.

 

[ss53mech]

Actually I think putting Bennett in the top and Dupers to the bottom might actually make the bottom 6 better, just not directly. If my eye test of the games isn't failing me over the course of the last couple of seasons then improving the compatibility and strength of the top lines has made the bottom six more effective by basically making it difficult on the other team.

When the team/top 6 is clicking and playing a real puck possession game the opposition defense starts to react to it. They are chasing more, playing more in their own zone, taking more hits, getting "ground down". This results in them being more tired, being slower, making mistakes.

How does this affect the bottom six? Dupuis, for all the things people might not love about him is still a heck of a skater (most games). If put out there against tired defensive pairings he by all logic should be able to recuperate some of his production lost by playing with arguable the worlds greatest player.

Keep in mind, this isn't really meant to be argumentative. I agree there are ways to improve this team. I just don't think the bottom six is the most glaring deficiency, and I think there are ways to make the bottom and top six more effective against more teams in both the regular season and playoffs by simply rotating some personnel.

My line would look something like this:

Kunitz-Sid-Beau (Leaves a 3rd wheel, adds a playmaker to make this line lethal, IMO improves defensively a little and offensively a lot)
Juice-Geno-Neal (Works, not playoff proven yet but I think it has real potential there as well)
Dupuis-Sutter-Kobasew (Still very defensively responsible, Chucky goes to the net, Dupes/Sutter both have the ability to work rushes and cycle)
Glass-Vitale-Adams (While I don't love this line if their play continues it would be very difficult to argue sitting any of them)

Follow up question: if you want to improve the bottom six, who is out? Even with the names I have posted above you still have Jeffrey and D'ags as healthy scratches (we know injuries will probably fix that one though). From a cap perspective, dupuis would be making to much to be in the bottom six, from a bang for your buck perspective it would be Tanner Glass or Brandon Sutter who aren't really living up to their contracts (IMO, that's a whole other topic of discussion), from a pure let's add talent then you would look at all/any member of the 4th line. So who do you swap out?

Like I said, this is all strictly IMO and I don't mean to call you "wrong" on any of this but I just don't see a reason why a seemingly obvious internal solution can't make this a much better team that is more difficult to play against. Your original point of Beau not playing well enough to earn his minutes is what got me going about it and I still strongly disagree with that. None of Sid's wingers have played better than Beau for more than one shift in any game they have played this season. That in concert with the playing style we have already seen from Bennett is more than enough of a reason to see him play with Sid.

 

[NastyNick]

Cheap powerplay goals masking just how terrible this unit is.

I watched a lot of NHL teams. And i see a lot of NHL powerplays. I cannot recall seeing a NHL team as disorganized and ill-prepared as the Penguins squad. I know they are missing Letang and Neal, but most of those guys have played together for years. This problem extends far beyond this year too. There isn't an excuse. The zone entries are atrocious. No one is on the same page. The passing is just erratic and doesn't serve a purpose. They score on sheer luck or failure of the opposition then anything their PP does. The second unit looks far better when it gets ice time. Under DB the PP has never been as good as it could be, and i don't think he intends to change that. Sure we might be happy with the PP getting 2 easy ones, but come playoffs those goals aren't going to come so easily. The change has to start now.

3rd unit wasn't playing its game. People want to rag on Sutter, but Jeffrey was part of the problem too. Gotta get the puck deep. Alot of the Pens problems happened when these guys were on the ice - the momentum went to Tampa and tended to stay there.

4th line was the opposite of the 3rd. They got the puck deep and went to work. It actually helped turn momentum a few times. Good for those guys.

I thought Bennett and Maatta had bad games personally. Bennett wasn't keeping up with Geno and Maatta was making errors. Chalk it up to the double-header, chalk it up to Engel, whatever. People should get off the Maatta train, because i just don't think hes a guarantee 30 games from now.

All in all i'm happy for the win, but i don't think we are sitting 4-1 if the competition had been normal.

 

[JoeKnows]

I don't get why people are saying Bennett was having a bad game Saturday. Heck, he hardly had a game at all. Personally, I thought Bennett was doing well, winning battles, and maintaining possession in the zone. A welcome change for our top six. On Friday I remember a few turnovers, but I didn't notice any reason to sit him Saturday.

Edit: I just rewatched the highlights and Bennett's dangling was featured. I feel like that buttresses my argument. In fairness, I think Bennett was a -1 on the night, although I don't think it was his fault. He covers his point man but it looks like someone else was out of position. Perhaps there's some systemic collapsing strategy that Bennett forgot. If that's the case though how will that become second nature if he's on the bench?

 

[Nietzsche Zone Play]

Bennett not practicing. this renders ~200 posts complaining about his usage last game useless.

 

[ByeBye]

Bennett not practicing. this renders ~200 posts complaining about his usage last game useless.

Maybe he's in the doghouse so much that he isn't even allowed to practice with the team anymore?

 

[GarrettC]

He was likely packaged in a deal with Engelland for Yakupov.

 

[IcedCapp]

Bennett not practicing. this renders ~200 posts complaining about his usage last game useless.

He took shifts. If it's a serious injury, that seems like a pretty stupid thing to do.

If you're claiming people jumped the gun on Saturday, not sure how you can not claim you're doing the same thing, since nothing's been said about his absence.

 

[Nietzsche Zone Play]

his final shift was 11 seconds. I think it's safe to say he's either injured or sick.

 

[HandshakeLine]

He took shifts. If it's a serious injury, that seems like a pretty stupid thing to do.

If you're claiming people jumped the gun on Saturday, not sure how you can not claim you're doing the same thing, since nothing's been said about his absence.

Or he got sick. Or he didn't know how bad the injury was at the time. Or a thousand other equally plausible things.

Occam's razor and all, but I'm guessing it wasn't a snidely-whiplash style evil plan in order to give a vet more ice time.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

He's hurt because Bylsma was literally beating the creativity out of him.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

He's hurt because Bylsma was literally beating the creativity out of him.

Well done!

 

[ss53mech]

Or he got sick. Or he didn't know how bad the injury was at the time. Or a thousand other equally plausible things.

Occam's razor and all, but I'm guessing it wasn't a snidely-whiplash style evil plan in order to give a vet more ice time.

Thanks for using that reference. I had to do some web research before I fully understood what it meant in context but it gave me an excuse to get a tiny bit more educated.