Post-Game Talk: Plus/Minus: Pens vs Bolts - Crosby scores means we got to our game

[ColePens]

Anybody else get fuzzy feelings seeing Crosby celebrate his 3rd goal? Not just the typical "raise my hands" we're used to, he did a big fist pump.

Art Ross is his to lose.

This season is way tooooooo long to just say that.

 

[Tender Rip]

Whipping boy may be a little extreme, and we can debate how much or how little of the criticism is warranted. That's fair.

BUT, speaking only for me, I look at Sutter exactly the same way I look at Nisky. I see a guy making about 2.5 million a year and watching him I feel utter and complete indifference. I look at neither and say to myself 'this guy is going to make a difference in the playoffs'.

2.25 is hardly a lot for a quality 3rd line center though. Sutter just turned 24, should be more to come from him. As much as I like Jeffrey, he has not performed to a level where you would feel confident putting him there instead, even if he MIGHT be able to fill that position in the future.

Interesting that Sutter's TOI has dropped a lot from last years averages so far though (16.24 to 13.56)

Not disagreeing with you in principle though, just thinking that it is much too early to put Sutter in that category.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Definitely not a whipping boy. He's nowhere near the heat guys like Orpik get.

My expectations are raised for him. I was really looking forward to a new and better Sutter with a full camp. Only to really see the same as last playoffs where we thought he was hurt.

It's a long season. I'm ready for that. I think they'll get better.

Orpik has been around longer and had some subpar years, so people have had longer to irrationally dislike him. Admitting he dogs it some in the regular season wasn't very bright either, even if it's true. I've been a huge Orpik fan since he was drafted. However, he is slipping, just not to the degree people are winding it up to be.

Sutter hasn't even played a full season and people are ragging on him.

The Sutter complaints are definitely way too early. Too many people are forgetting Staal's magic disappearing acts for months on end. He was a huge whipping boy when he was a Pen, so I find it comical when some people wish he was still here.

 

[KIRK]

2.25 is hardly a lot for a quality 3rd line center though. Sutter just turned 24, should be more to come from him. As much as I like Jeffrey, he has not performed to a level where you would feel confident putting him there instead, even if he MIGHT be able to fill that position in the future.

Interesting that Sutter's TOI has dropped a lot from last years averages so far though (16.24 to 13.56)

Not disagreeing with you in principle though, just thinking that it is much too early to put Sutter in that category.

FYI, the thing that pisses me off about Sutter is that I saw him against KMN in Carolina. He did about as good a number manning on Geno as I've seen anyone do. Heart, tenacity, never quit battling. If he showed half of that, then I'd be the first one defending him.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

FYI, the thing that pisses me off about Sutter is that I saw him against KMN in Carolina. He did about as good a number manning on Geno as I've seen anyone do. Heart, tenacity, never quit battling. If he showed half of that, then I'd be the first one defending him.

Does anyone know about anything to explain Sutter's drop in tenacity?

 

[KIRK]

Does anyone know about anything to explain Sutter's drop in tenacity?

Maybe the game I keep citing is something he was totally pumped for and itself was an exception more than a rule. I've seen someone suggest maybe he never fully got over being traded. I haven't seen anything else suggested. I'm at a loss.

 

[JTG]

Or maybe the said drop in his intensity has been blown out of proportion? Not like that hasn't happened a time or a million here. I'd like to see him be more physical, but I don't think he looks like he's mailing it in or anything. I know hits are subjective and the stat holds a small amount of merit in general, but he does have 12 hits on the season which ranks him 4th on the team behind Glass, Orpik, and Dupuis.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

I thought Brooksy played bad last game, but he looked decent in other games. I think he's getting an unfair whipping right now.

IMO, the reason Oprik is a whipping boy is much like why Duper is a whipping boy; how much money he makes, how he's used, and who he's playing over.

When Engo needs a game Bort gets scratched even though he's been better than Orpik. When Letang comes back, Maatta's goin back to JRs and Des is gonna stay in the A unless they move someone.

Edit: Also, with him admitting he takes it easy in the reg season, why not sit him instead of a kid who plays his hardest every game when you need to dress Engo?

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Maybe the game I keep citing is something he was totally pumped for and itself was an exception more than a rule. I've seen someone suggest maybe he never fully got over being traded. I haven't seen anything else suggested. I'm at a loss.

I'd think that he'd get pumped up again but I can't remember it happening here. I guess not getting over being traded makes sense in a disappointing way. His level isn't great either way.

IMO, the reason Oprik is a whipping boy is much like why Duper is a whipping boy; how much money he makes, how he's used, and who he's playing over.

When Engo needs a game Bort gets scratched even though he's been better than Orpik. When Letang comes back, Maatta's goin back to JRs and Des is gonna stay in the A unless they move someone.

Bingo. I think it's fairly rational, too.

Edit: Also, with him admitting he takes it easy in the reg season, why not sit him instead of a kid who plays his hardest every game when you need to dress Engo?

This is something I really don't get, why not spare him in the regular season? Probably his reaction to it and Bylsma's Bylsmaness. And mainly not put extra mileage on whoever his partner would be having to do more.

 

[KIRK]

Or maybe the said drop in his intensity has been blown out of proportion? Not like that hasn't happened a time or a million here. I'd like to see him be more physical, but I don't think he looks like he's mailing it in or anything. I know hits are subjective and the stat holds a small amount of merit in general, but he does have 12 hits on the season which ranks him 4th on the team behind Glass, Orpik, and Dupuis.

Can't speak for anyone else, but I didn't accuse him of mailing it in. There's a difference between saying 'I want the guy I remember playing against KMN' and 'he's mailing it in'.

 

[KIRK]

IMO, the reason Oprik is a whipping boy is much like why Duper is a whipping boy; how much money he makes, how he's used, and who he's playing over.

When Engo needs a game Bort gets scratched even though he's been better than Orpik. When Letang comes back, Maatta's goin back to JRs and Des is gonna stay in the A unless they move someone.

You know, I don't even think people would complain too much about what Duper and Orpik make IF they were slotted properly. In this regard, maybe the frustration is directed unfairly, but then we hear about the need for a promise to Dupuis after the Iginla trade AND we all KNOW how Orpik would handle being a #5 (dude would have his Hines Ward like 'I'm the leader for the D-men' moment).

 

[WayneSid9987]

I think people have the Sutter situation wrong.
I believe he is settled in here now and loves being a Pen.
He probably gets nice pats on the back for his faceoff wins and the little offense he's provided so far. If no one is telling him he has to play a more hard nosed game, he probably will continue on his merry way.

IMO his line will be better this year. He'll have Kobasew or Bennett flanking him. My ideal 3rd line for this team going into the playoffs with this roster as is would be Dupuis-Sutter-Kobasew. With a defensive role, that line could do some nice work imo.

 

[KIRK]

I think people have the Sutter situation wrong.
I believe he is settled in here now and loves being a Pen.
He probably gets nice pats on the back for his faceoff wins and the little offense he's provided so far. If no one is telling him he has to play a more hard nosed game, he probably will continue on his merry way.

IMO his line will be better this year. He'll have Kobasew or Bennett flanking him. My ideal 3rd line for this team going into the playoffs with this roster as is would be Dupuis-Sutter-Kobasew. With a defensive role, that line could do some nice work imo.

I won't discount that could be the case.

 

[#66]

Definitely not a whipping boy. He's nowhere near the heat guys like Orpik get.

My expectations are raised for him. I was really looking forward to a new and better Sutter with a full camp. Only to really see the same as last playoffs where we thought he was hurt.

It's a long season. I'm ready for that. I think they'll get better.

For me its less about Sutter and more about the Pens.

I'm not the biggest Sutter fan but I wouldn't call him a bad player. He's just blah to me. I don't mind him not being a physical player but I don't see him buzzing on the ice. IMO even his positional play isn't that good. At least not good enough to base his game around it. He has good habits and he's safe. IMO playing "not that bad" isn't good enough.

So while he isn't a bad player, the Pens need that stud center if they aren't going to beef up the top 6. I don't hate Bylsma but its pretty clear that match ups are out the window with him. So he needs that 3rd line quality depth so he can just make changes on a whim.

The Pens need a better 3rd line player than Sutter if they aren't going to have a stud winger for Sid and Malkin. Maybe that ends up being Bennett but this should be a cup team.

Just to see what you guys think...

Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett
or
Dupuis-Crosby-Neal

 

[Ogrezilla]

For me its less about Sutter and more about the Pens.

I'm not the biggest Sutter fan but I wouldn't call him a bad player. He's just blah to me. I don't mind him not being a physical player but I don't see him buzzing on the ice. IMO even his positional play isn't that good. At least not good enough to base his game around it. He has good habits and he's safe. IMO playing "not that bad" isn't good enough.

So while he isn't a bad player, the Pens need that stud center if they aren't going to beef up the top 6. I don't hate Bylsma but its pretty clear that match ups are out the window with him. So he needs that 3rd line quality depth so he can just make changes on a whim.

The Pens need a better 3rd line player than Sutter if they aren't going to have a stud winger for Sid and Malkin. Maybe that ends up being Bennett but this should be a cup team.

Just to see what you guys think...

Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett
or
Dupuis-Crosby-Neal

yes to the first. No to Sid and Neal.

Kunitz - Crosby - Bennett/Jussi
Bennett/Jussi - Malkin - Neal
Dupuis - Sutter/Jeffrey - Kobasew

 

[WayneSid9987]

Just to see what you guys think...

Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett
or
Dupuis-Crosby-Neal

I'm a big fan of conditioning Dupuis to be on a shut down line once the playoffs roll around.

The combinations in the top six should be explored with that in mind.

Kunitz
Crosby
Neal
Jokinen
Malkin
Bennett or even Kobasew at this point would make up my top six. (barring a trade)

But none of this matters cuz KCD won't be broken up.

I will say that the bottom 9 can/could pick up the slack in that scenario. Glaadams continue to play well. Bennett settles into a checking role with a line that is able to create offensively and of course Jokinen-Malkin-Neal.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Kobasew has no business in the top 6 over Dupuis. None at all. He's just not as good at hockey.

 

[#66]

yes to the first. No to Sid and Neal.

Kunitz - Crosby - Bennett/Jussi
Bennett/Jussi - Malkin - Neal
Dupuis - Sutter/Jeffrey - Kobasew

Yeah I think Bennett and Sid are kind of made for each other.

I wouldn't be opposed to trying Crosby and Neal once more at this time of the year. Maybe even...

Neal-Crosby-Bennett
Kunitz-Malkin-Jokinen
Kobasew-Sutter-Dupuis

 

[Ogrezilla]

Yeah I think Bennett and Sid are kind of made for each other.

I wouldn't be opposed to trying Crosby and Neal once more at this time of the year. Maybe even...

Neal-Crosby-Bennett
Kunitz-Malkin-Jokinen
Kobasew-Sutter-Dupuis

even there I'd swap Jussi and Neal. I just think Neal and Geno work very well together. Sid really did just look annoyed last year in his two games with Neal. Its a long season so by all means I hope we try everything we can. I just don't think splitting Geno and Neal will be the way to go.

 

[BHD]

Sutter has been average at worst. I think some people have ridiculous expectations with him.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Sutter has been average at worst. I think some people have ridiculous expectations with him.

I agree he's been average at worst. The reason people have higher expectations than that is because we have seen him play better than that.

 

[BHD]

I agree he's been average at worst. The reason people have higher expectations than that is because we have seen him play better than that.

I was stoked about him heading into last season. I was expecting the type of play that he showed when he first broke into the league. I acknowledge that he'll never be Jordan Staal, but... I was expecting a bit more.

 

[Jacob]

To expand on Sutter... Does anyone remember in the first game of the year last season when he popped Briere when he was cutting across the blueline? It wasn't like a highlight reel hit but it was something I made notice of. I guess I mistakenly thought that was going to be a part of his repertoire but overall he proved to be very non-physical. Even statistically, he averaged slightly less hits than he did in previous seasons with only 30 in 48.

One other moment from last season that stood out to me is one of the OT games in the playoffs (against Ottawa I think), basically Sutter was very obviously completely out of gas during all of his shifts and he looked like he was digging down way more than any other player just to keep up with the play. His body language looked like someone that had been caught on the ice for an extended (2+ minute) penalty kill, even though he was just coming over the boards to *start* a shift.

So maybe he had a crummy offseason, an injury, the condensed schedule really taxed his body, or a combination of those.

So you've got a kid that needs to use his size more but also needs to build up his strength and endurance and I hope that's what I'm starting to see now with a more physical and more engaging Sutter. He already has 12 hits in 5 games this season so the staff must have made it a point for him to make a greater impact in that aspect of the game. I don't expect him to keep that pace up hitting-wise but it's promising, to me. He's still got a spindly body and he's also still pretty young (a year younger than Jeffrey, even) so he's still got room to grow, in more ways than one.

Anyway, in a nutshell I was critical of Sutter's lack of impact last season especially in the playoffs but I've seen improvement to start this season. When the team gets healthy and he gets improved linemates hopefully it'll be even more noticeable.

 

[Ogrezilla]

As far as his "engagement" or whatever you want to call it compared to what we saw from him against us in Carolina, I think some of that might be playing a somewhat different role. For us, he's a part of a shutdown unit. In Carolina, he was basically tasked with shadowing Sid or Geno every shift. It might have gotten him fired up to have that direct match-up like that. Or I might have just pulled this from my ass

I definitely agree with Jacob about the playoffs. He just looked tired. Like he had no idea how hard the playoffs would be.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

To expand on Sutter... Does anyone remember in the first game of the year last season when he popped Briere when he was cutting across the blueline? It wasn't like a highlight reel hit but it was something I made notice of. I guess I mistakenly thought that was going to be a part of his repertoire but overall he proved to be very non-physical. Even statistically, he averaged slightly less hits than he did in previous seasons with only 30 in 48.

One other moment from last season that stood out to me is one of the OT games in the playoffs (against Ottawa I think), basically Sutter was very obviously completely out of gas during all of his shifts and he looked like he was digging down way more than any other player just to keep up with the play. His body language looked like someone that had been caught on the ice for an extended (2+ minute) penalty kill, even though he was just coming over the boards to *start* a shift.

So maybe he had a crummy offseason, an injury, the condensed schedule really taxed his body, or a combination of those.

So you've got a kid that needs to use his size more but also needs to build up his strength and endurance and I hope that's what I'm starting to see now with a more physical and more engaging Sutter. He already has 12 hits in 5 games this season so the staff must have made it a point for him to make a greater impact in that aspect of the game. I don't expect him to keep that pace up hitting-wise but it's promising, to me. He's still got a spindly body and he's also still pretty young (a year younger than Jeffrey, even) so he's still got room to grow, in more ways than one.

Anyway, in a nutshell I was critical of Sutter's lack of impact last season especially in the playoffs but I've seen improvement to start this season. When the team gets healthy and he gets improved linemates hopefully it'll be even more noticeable.

A little stability in terms of linemates, and especially a playmaking winger will help him. Either play DJ there and put Kobe on the other side, and let them play together, or else play BB there.

On paper a Dupuis/Sutter/Kobe line looks fine, but I think Sutter will get lost in the shuffle offensively there, but that could be a reasonable shutdown line.