Post-Game Talk: Plus-minus | Penguins 3, Panthers 1

[Tacitus Kilgore]

If Geno ends up being out for a while, i'm looking for Sid to go Full Sid and carry the team. Geno did just that when Sid went out with the high ankle sprain, so i expect the same of Sid.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

who went after our star players after that? no one. **** happens. It seems like all you guys whining about no toughness just want to see someone retaliate as a way to vent your frustration or make you feel better about the injury. No amount of toughness would have prevented that.

This.

I ****ing hate fights after clean plays. Gudbransson did nothing wrong and should have to take a punch to the face to pay for it.

 

[Shockmaster]

Blue jerseys again vs TB

 

[Zatch88]

Blue jerseys again vs TB

whyyyyyy

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

whyyyyyy

Because Sid and Neal are still healthy. We need to fix that, apparently.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Blue jerseys were cool 5 years ago.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

whyyyyyy

Because we're contractually obligated to wear them X amounts of times a season and we have fewer games to wear them this year than usual.

 

[Zatch88]

Because we're contractually obligated to wear them X amounts of times a season and we have fewer games to wear them this year than usual.

well, that makes sense haha. I think they're cursed. Aren't the pens getting new thirds soon? I think I read that somewhere.

 

[MeticulouslyDishevel]

I KNEW those jerseys were cursed.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

well, that makes sense haha. I think they're cursed. Aren't the pens getting new thirds soon? I think I read that somewhere.

Next season. Each third jersey is required to be worn three times, though I do think the contract can be bought out (like what Florida did with their alternates...I'm not sure what the case was with Buffalo's since they were technically 'anniversary' jerseys...but they got a second season).

Lots of new jerseys in Pittsburgh come 2014 (new Penguins third, Pirates changing their logo, and I assume the Steelers will continue the trend of another fauxback every-other-year).

 

[lastcupever75]

I'm really just having trouble understanding what's been going on. I've never seen anything like it. Is the locker room fractured and the guys secretly can't stand each other? Are they being instructed not to do anything physical, ever? Or are they just a roster full of soft *******? It's hard to fathom that a team with the two best players in the world would be surrounded by a bunch of gutless cowards. No reponse to Rinaldo harassing Letang. no response to Cloutier harassing Geno. No response to anything ever. But hey, we got 2 points tonight!!

Sickening

And I've seen G Rob mentioned. But a presence on the top 2 lines is what this team needs more of.
Like a tocchet even if it comes without the scoring touch

 

[Terrapin]

Sickening

And I've seen G Rob mentioned. But a presence on the top 2 lines is what this team needs more of.
Like a tocchet even if it comes without the scoring touch

Remember a few games ago when Evander Kane threw a flying elbow at Geno's head? Geno ducked it, but regardless, nobody even thought about going after him. That is an absolute embarrassment to have your star players deal with that every game. The good news is, Geno will realize his career may be significantly shortened if he stays here, so he'll probably sign elsewhere. Then we'll have one less star to worry about protecting.

 

[Malkin4Top6Wingerz]

What's funny to me is some of the same people who want this team to be tough to play against and protect their teammates ***** and moan when Despres or Bortuzzo is scratched instead of Engelland.

As usual this latest talking point is a complete overreaction and oversimplification of our problems. Florida is a squeaky clean team and one of their clean hits lead to the injury of one of our star players because he lost an edge during the play. It happens. Sending somebody to fight Gudbranson is not going to deter that from happening again, particularly if you're going to instigate a fight in the process and hand them a powerplay during the third period of a tie hockey game.

I agree that this team isn't tough enough to play against given the makeup of the roster but nothing about that Gudbranson hit can be avoided or deterred no matter what roster you have. It's part of the game, and unfortunately it cost us the reigning MVP for who knows how long.

 

[Terrapin]

This.

I ****ing hate fights after clean plays. Gudbransson did nothing wrong and should have to take a punch to the face to pay for it.

How about the hits on Sid for his concussions? Or Krejci elbowing his face when he first returned from a year and a half off? How about Letang's concussion? How about Evander Kane trying to land a flying elbow to Geno's head? How about Cloutier crosschecking Geno 15 times in a row? How about Rinaldo slashing Letang? How about Lovejoy being boarded? Or Niskanen? None of those were responded to either. Everyone in the league knows it's open season on this team, because there is no fear of anything happening. Maybe Mario will give a statement about how the league's too rough again, but we see the good that did last time.

 

[Malkin4Top6Wingerz]

How about the hits on Sid for his concussions? Or Krejci elbowing his face when he first returned from a year and a half off? How about Letang's concussion? How about Evander Kane trying to land a flying elbow to Geno's head? How about Cloutier crosschecking Geno 15 times in a row? How about Rinaldo slashing Letang? How about Lovejoy being boarded? Or Niskanen? None of those were responded to either. Everyone in the league knows it's open season on this team, because there is no fear of anything happening. Maybe Mario will give a statement about how the league's too rough again, but we see how good that did last time.

Please explain in detail what you believe are proper responses to these incidents. The game has changed, you can't just go around gooning it up every time a borderline play is adminstered against your team. The best way to deter teams from making dirty plays is the ol' Detroit Red Wings method. You know, score on the ensuing powerplay.

 

[BrookswasHere44]

Blue jerseys were cool 5 years ago.

Really? I for one dont remember them ever being anything other than the suck

 

[Terrapin]

Please explain in detail what you believe are proper responses to these incidents. The game has changed, you can't just go around gooning it up every time a borderline play is adminstered against your team. The best way to deter teams from making dirty plays is the ol' Detroit Red Wings method. You know, score on the ensuing powerplay.

If someone throws elbows at Crosby or Malkin, you can do one of two things. Either go after the guy that threw the elbow, or you can start targeting their star players. If it means having to kill off a 2 minute penalty, big deal. Those teams don't seem worried about taking penalties. Hell, Philly was down 2-0, called a timeout, and immediately some plug boarded Bortuzzo. But teams will start getting the message that there are reprecussions for questionable hits against this team. It takes time to build a reputation as a 'tough' team. But gaining a reputation as a soft team happens pretty quickly. Maybe if Geno wasn't worried about dodging elbows and crosschecks all game long, he'd have more than 4 goals this year? Maybe if we had some guys that would tell a Rinaldo 'slash Letang one more time and I'm taking Giroux's knee out', Letang wouldn't have to be sent to the box for defending himself.

And the Wings are pretty much the exception to the rule, but they still usually always had hard nosed physical guys around that would stand up for each other.

 

[Malkin4Top6Wingerz]

If someone throws elbows at Crosby or Malkin, you can do one of two things. Either go after the guy that threw the elbow, or you can start targeting their star players. If it means having to kill off a 2 minute penalty, big deal. Those teams don't seem worried about taking penalties. Hell, Philly was down 2-0, called a timeout, and immediately some plug boarded Bortuzzo. But teams will start getting the message that there are reprecussions for questionable hits against this team. It takes time to build a reputation as a 'tough' team. But gaining a reputation as a soft team happens pretty quickly.

When you say targeting their star players, do you mean with clean or dirty hits? We should already be doing the former, and I disagree with the latter route. I don't think Matt Cooke made this team any safer when he was running around throwing dirty hits, do you? And god forbid if in response to a questionable hit on a guy like Bortuzzo we injure Giroux and prompt Philly or whoever else is involved to retaliate further.

Dirty plays on Crosby and Malkin haven't exactly been rampant. You could argue that none of Crosby's concussions were a result of a particularly dirty or malicious hit, and I guarantee that Malkin throws more elbows than he recieves.

Maybe if Geno wasn't worried about dodging elbows and crosschecks all game long, he'd have more than 4 goals this year? Maybe if we had some guys that would tell a Rinaldo 'slash Letang one more time and I'm taking Giroux's knee out', Letang wouldn't have to be sent to the box for defending himself.

It's more than a stretch to imply that Geno's goalscoring slump has anything to do with our team toughness when he notched 50 last season and won MVP with the same roster. As for Rinaldo, you can't stop an idiot like that. The only reason he is in the game is to piss the other team off and he knows it. If somebody told him that they'll take out Giroux's knee if he slashes Letang again he'd probably respond by threatening to take Crosby's head off. Do you really want to open up that can of worms?

And the Wings are pretty much the exception to the rule, but they still usually always had hard nosed physical guys around that would stand up for each other.

Detroit mostly just had guys who would facewash you in a scrum aside from McCarty, and Engelland is just as tough as he is. Detroit certainly didn't go around trying to injure other teams players when one of their stars was targeted either and they did just fine.

Regardless of how we feel, I'm betting that our reputation with other teams is just that - a gritty bunch of guys who are willing to defend each other. We're just a self-conscious bunch.

 

[Terrapin]

When you say targeting their star players, do you mean with clean or dirty hits? We should already be doing the former, and I disagree with the latter route. I don't think Matt Cooke made this team any safer when he was running around throwing dirty hits, do you? And god forbid if in response to a questionable hit on a guy like Bortuzzo we injure Giroux and prompt Philly or whoever else is involved to retaliate further.

Dirty plays on Crosby and Malkin haven't exactly been rampant. You could argue that none of Crosby's concussions were a result of a particularly dirty or malicious hit, and I guarantee that Malkin throws more elbows than he recieves.



It's more than a stretch to imply that Geno's goalscoring slump has anything to do with our team toughness when he notched 50 last season and won MVP with the same roster. As for Rinaldo, you can't stop an idiot like that. The only reason he is in the game is to piss the other team off and he knows it. If somebody told him that they'll take out Giroux's knee if he slashes Letang again he'd probably respond by threatening to take Crosby's head off. Do you really want to open up that can of worms?



Detroit mostly just had guys who would facewash you in a scrum aside from McCarty, and Engelland is just as tough as he is. Detroit certainly didn't go around trying to injure other teams players when one of their stars was targeted either and they did just fine.

Regardless of how we feel, I'm betting that our reputation with other teams is just that - a gritty bunch of guys who are willing to defend each other. We're just a self-conscious bunch.

You make some good points. However, and I'll start w/ your last statement, how do you see any indication of grit or defending each other on this team? I just posted about 7 examples off the top of my head from the last year that is proof to the contrary.

Clean or dirty, we certainly aren't doing either lately are we? Everyone was complaining about our retaliatory penalties against Philly right? In games like that, against division rivals, we should be initiating the physical play (cleanly), not feebly responding to it. And if teams want to play dirty, you can't just bend over and take it.

Yeah, guys like Rinaldo are idiots. But if he's directly responsible for Giroux getting injured, he isn't going to be a part of that team for long. I never liked Matt Cooke to begin with honestly, and having a guy like that on your team (I'm talking past Matt Cooke, not present) requires you to have some very tough guys, cause chances are games may get out of hand because of his antics.

You're right, you could argue that none of their concussions were the result of dirty plays. You can also point to a lot of dirty plays against them where they escaped injury. Just because they dodged the elbows and slashes, just because Fleury doesn't sprain a knee getting run, etc doesn't mean the intent wasn't there.

 

[Malkin4Top6Wingerz]

You make some good points. However, and I'll start w/ your last statement, how do you see any indication of grit or defending each other on this team? I just posted about 7 examples off the top of my head from the last year that is proof to the contrary.

Some of your examples included things like Malkin and Letang being slashed. That stuff happens all the time in the league without retaliation. I don't even recall the elbow on Malkin from Kane, and the one from Krejci didn't seem intentional or malicious at all to me. I see worse on a daily basis.

I do agree that Pacioretty's hit deserved much more of a response, but it seemed like nobody even realized what happened until Letang was on the ice bleeding.

You're right, you could argue that none of their concussions were the result of dirty plays. You can also point to a lot of dirty plays against them where they escaped injury. Just because they dodged the elbows and slashes, just because Fleury doesn't sprain a knee getting run, etc doesn't mean the intent wasn't there.

Boston has been considered a tough team for years and they've been the victim of more high profile dirty hits than any team I can think of, and honestly I just don't see this team being a victim of dirty plays more than anybody else. That list you came up with I'm betting fans of every team could match.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Please explain in detail what you believe are proper responses to these incidents. The game has changed, you can't just go around gooning it up every time a borderline play is adminstered against your team. The best way to deter teams from making dirty plays is the ol' Detroit Red Wings method. You know, score on the ensuing powerplay.

I endorse this post.

I have no interest to see hockey fall back into the cesspool of mindless goons who serve no purpose but to fight.

Fighting after a clean play is not something that should be encouraged.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

This.

I ****ing hate fights after clean plays. Gudbranson did nothing wrong and should have to take a punch to the face to pay for it.

I love the way Gudbranson plays. And I love the fact he feels confident enough to lay on the body with a guy like Malkin. I would love to have a guy like Gudbranson on my team.

That said, you don't HAVE to do anything wrong for there to be retribution. This was Evgeni Malkin. You don't hit Evgeni Malkin like that with zero response. This is hockey and this is still a mean, vicious game with reactions to every action on the ice.

Remember when Keith Ballard (then with Florida) sent Geno UP and OVER with a gorgeous hip check in Sunrise a few seasons ago? Same thing. LOVED the hit. But you better send Ballard a little message there. And Sidney Crosby jumped in and dropped the gloves with Ballard.

I'm not saying you have to react like that for every clean hit that happens on the ice in a game. But when you hit Evgeni Malkin HARD, there better be retribution. That sends messages to your own team, the other team, the entire conference, the entire league, etc.

Winning teams do this.

 

[Ogrezilla]

he didn't hit Malkin hard. Malkin lost his edge or that hit wouldn't have even knocked him off the puck let alone knocked him down or hurt him. Going after a guy for that hit would be like going after someone for taking a slapshot and hurting someone's foot. Its a complete fluke play with absolutely no intent to even cause pain let alone injure someone.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

he didn't hit Malkin hard. Malkin lost his edge or that hit wouldn't have even knocked him off the puck let alone knocked him down or hurt him. Going after a guy for that hit would be like going after someone for taking a slapshot and hurting someone's foot. Its a complete fluke play with absolutely no intent to even cause pain let alone injure someone.

You know Gudbranson personally, to be able to speak for him on his intentions? Please. He's a physical D-man and he was finishing his check. Stuff happens...


...including retribution in a punch-first-ask-questions-about-intent-later kind of way.

 

[StutzlesTapeJob]

The hit on Geno was a good clean hard hit. It was on Geno so i would expect Neal to respond as Neal did. And had it been early in the game, i would expect to see more edge the whole night out of then pens.

But this Philly game and now Malkin's injury have sparked a debate worth having. All of us are pissed Geno is hurt. And as i said above, Neal responded the right way. Gub got a chance to finish Malkin and took it. This is modern NHL hockey, it happens, Geno caught an edge, makes things worse. To me, this and the flyers game are not the same thing. That was a game where a team bullied us into a loss. And not because we took penalties and lost on the PK. Because we can't play a knock down drag out game with this roster, AND WIN.

I am not on board with "fight whenever there is a hit". But this team has a deficiency in size and intimidation that other teams will look to exploit. Again, not a lack of enforcers. I think we have it become fairly common for other teams to employ a gameplan of "smack the pens around a bit". They know that A) the pens don't respond well (temper or execution) to that kind of game. B) there is not much collateral damage to going down that road. After Engo, Glass, Brooks, and maybe Bort when dressed.....we don't have the horses to win a very physical game.

It is a problem for wins, a big problem for playoffs, and is correlated to our top players being the focus of abuse.

Aside from that this game was new pens hockey. Boring as sin and defensively sound. We relied on TOP and shot advantage to grind out a victory. Will work against some teams, very ineffective against others.