Player Development

[TMLBlueandWhite]

That would have been difficult to talk about which was the right pick for years from now anyway. Amirov is probably a 50-60 point forward at this point, and Schneider is a third pairing D.... of course 22 year old D takes a few more years to fully mature and learn the position, so it's quite some time before we know what his potential is.

Amirov probably still is the right pick, if the unfortunate hadn't happened... you don't pick for positional need. You pick the BPA, and Amirov was that.

Like I said, I think it would be poor taste to discuss that hypothetical, but you do you.

There's no accounting for some people's taste.

 

[Niagara Bill]

Knies would still count as developed since the team still would have been working with him in video sessions and workout programs even if it wasn't in person over 2 years. Plus he still would have been a part of development and rookie camps in the summer.

As for forwards we've developed.

Engvall
Holmberg
Robertson
Grundstrom
Brooks

As was Hyman, deemed not worth the value
Marginal
Jury still out
Deemed not worth more investment
Deemed not worth more investment
Then there is Marchment, Sandin, Deemed not worth more investment etc.and more

The guys the let go are at least equal to Domi, Bert, Klingberg who we are paying ,uch more to.

 

[Doublerum1975]

To be fair how many high picks have we had for defenceman we mostly draft forwards and how often do late round picks become nhl players

 

[Fogelhund]

To be fair how many high picks have we had for defenceman we mostly draft forwards and how often do late round picks become nhl players

It's pretty much just been Sandin and Liljegren. Anybody interested in using our first round pick for the overager D, if we keep the pick?

 

[notDatsyuk]

To be fair how many high picks have we had for defenceman we mostly draft forwards and how often do late round picks become nhl players

And that's the problem. Once we had Matty and Willy our biggest need was a top D, and not only did we continue to go for forwards, but compounded the problem by getting JT.

 

[aingefan]

Which goalie have the Leafs missed in the first round in the last decade by taking a forward instead? Even the second round?

Korshkov over Hart was a head scratcher at the time….wasn’t that the same draft?

 

[Dekes For Days]

And that's the problem. Once we had Matty and Willy our biggest need was a top D, and not only did we continue to go for forwards, but compounded the problem by getting JT.

Center and defense were both needs, which is why we used 16-17 (depending on how one classifies Holmberg) of our next 22 picks over the next 3 years on C and D prospects, and then acquired Tavares and Muzzin in the 2018-2019 season.

 

[arso40]

The one player we actually did develop became expendable at the cost of captain jt rediculous im watching the flames game now you don’t trade him cause he’s sticcin up for teammates kerfoot was a 1mill cheaper that was dubus not understanding what he brought he just laid a guy out and near the end of a shift for about a minute draws the hooking penalty, tryna give the flames a spark …….geeeeez

 

[Menzinger]

A little disingenuous considering I didn't mention the word draft in my comment even once, most goalies aren't drafted until after the first two rounds, and you completely ignored defensemen altogether.

I can think of at least one instance off the top of my head where they drafted yet another scoring forward, instead of a defenseman like everyone was pushing for, but I think it would be in poor taste to discuss that hypothetical.

Your initial post mentions 'developing' which clearly refers to young prospects/the draft

You go on to heavily imply that MLSE is biased towards prioritizing forwards because of marketability (which is nonsense), while ignoring that the majority of the Leafs draft selections were essentially bpa (regarding the core of the team and main prospects).

Even Amirov went where most public draft rankings had him going. At worst you can argue it was an uninspired choice,.but that's very different from suggesting he was taken because of ticket sales

And your point about goalies contradicts your earlier statement too. It's absolutely true that most 1A goalies are frequently found beyond the first two rounds. Why would the Leafs prioritize development of a position that's incredibly difficult to predict?

 

[Menzinger]

Korshkov over Hart was a head scratcher at the time….wasn’t that the same draft?

Koeshkov definitely was selected too soon. But it likely wasn't between him vs Hart.

The next logical selection would have arguably been been Debrincat (a small skilled winger). About 12+ teams passed on Hart between where he was selected and the Leafs 2nd round selection

 

[notDatsyuk]

Center and defense were both needs, which is why we used 16-17 (depending on how one classifies Holmberg) of our next 22 picks over the next 3 years on C and D prospects, and then acquired Tavares and Muzzin in the 2018-2019 season.

We got Matthews in 2016 and Tavares in 2018.

Please tell me the names of the 17 centres and defencemen we drafted in the top couple of rounds in the 2017 draft.

With Matthews, Kadri, Bozak, and Nylander, we needed centres?

 

[Dekes For Days]

We got Matthews in 2016 and Tavares in 2018.
Please tell me the names of the 17 centres and defencemen we drafted in the top couple of rounds in the 2017 draft.
With Matthews, Kadri, Bozak, and Nylander, we needed centres?

We didn't draft 17 centers and defensemen in the top couple rounds of the 2017 draft. We drafted 17 centers and defensemen with our 22 picks over the next 3 years, like I said. 11 out of the 22 were defensemen, including our 1st and 2nd round picks in the next 2 years, so this idea that we just went for forwards is wrong. Organizationally, we had gotten pretty weak at center, and once Bozak left, we were only really left with Matthews and an unreliable Kadri, so yes, we did need centers. But we also added a top D that same year.

 

[notDatsyuk]

We didn't draft 17 centers and defensemen in the top couple rounds of the 2017 draft. We drafted 17 centers and defensemen with our 22 picks over the next 3 years, like I said. 11 out of the 22 were defensemen, including our 1st and 2nd round picks in the next 2 years, so this idea that we just went for forwards is wrong. Organizationally, we had gotten pretty weak at center, and once Bozak left, we were only really left with Matthews and an unreliable Kadri, so yes, we did need centers. But we also added a top D that same year.

So as usual you pretend to give facts but they are unrelated to the post you quote, and prevaricate when called on it.

I should know better than to waste my time, although it is fun to watch you squirm.

 

[Dekes For Days]

So as usual you pretend to give facts but they are unrelated to the post you quote, and prevaricate when called on it.

The facts I provided were related to the post I quoted. In response to a post talking about drafting "mostly forwards", you said "And that's the problem. Once we had Matty and Willy our biggest need was a top D, and not only did we continue to go for forwards, but compounded the problem by getting JT." In actuality, we didn't "continue to go for forwards". We actually shifted our drafting towards defense quite a bit over the next few years, as I showed. Tavares also didn't compound any problems. It filled another relative weakness the organization had, and we still added the top D we needed that same year.

 

[notDatsyuk]

The facts I provided were related to the post I quoted. In response to a post talking about drafting "mostly forwards", you said "And that's the problem. Once we had Matty and Willy our biggest need was a top D, and not only did we continue to go for forwards, but compounded the problem by getting JT." In actuality, we didn't "continue to go for forwards". We actually shifted our drafting towards defense quite a bit over the next few years, as I showed. Tavares also didn't compound any problems. It filled another relative weakness the organization had, and we still added the top D we needed that same year.

Still can't admit you're wrong eh?

Of course you'll say you aren't and try to twist it as usual.

I'll stop wasting my time.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Still can't admit you're wrong eh?

I always admit when I'm wrong, but there's nothing wrong on my end. You haven't even addressed anything I said, let alone shown it to be wrong. I showed and explained to you something you got wrong, but it seems you'd rather throw around false accusations, personal attacks, and deflections than acknowledge it. In the years after drafting Matthews, we actually focused a decent amount on drafting defensemen, and in 2018-2019, Tavares did not prevent a top D from also being added to the NHL team.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I always admit when I'm wrong, but there's nothing wrong on my end. You haven't even addressed anything I said, let alone shown it to be wrong. I showed and explained to you something you got wrong, but it seems you'd rather throw around false accusations, personal attacks, and deflections than acknowledge it. In the years after drafting Matthews, we actually focused a decent amount on drafting defensemen, and in 2018-2019, Tavares did not prevent a top D from also being added to the NHL team.

I addressed it and you avoided it (as usual) so you wouldn't have to admit you were wrong. But please continue your personal attacks on me.

 

[arso40]

I always admit when I'm wrong, but there's nothing wrong on my end. You haven't even addressed anything I said, let alone shown it to be wrong. I showed and explained to you something you got wrong, but it seems you'd rather throw around false accusations, personal attacks, and deflections than acknowledge it. In the years after drafting Matthews, we actually focused a decent amount on drafting defensemen, and in 2018-2019, Tavares did not prevent a top D from also being added to the NHL team.

His 11 mil certainly did

 

[Dekes For Days]

His 11 mil certainly did

No, it didn't. We added Muzzin that same season.

I addressed it and you avoided it (as usual) so you wouldn't have to admit you were wrong.

The only thing you even pretended to address was my statement that "we used 16-17 (depending on how one classifies Holmberg) of our next 22 picks over the next 3 years on C and D prospects", but you misread it and started talking about the top couple rounds of the 2017 draft for some reason. I reiterated my statement, and expanded on the defensive drafting we did, and you ignored it. You also asked a question about our organizational center depth, which I answered, and you also ignored. Everything else has been you falsely accusing other people of doing the very thing you're doing.

Our relative weaknesses in the early Matthews era was defense and center. We had to rent centers in each of the first two years (even before Bozak left and Kadri became unreliable), and our defensive results were near the bottom of the league. We shifted our drafting over the next 3 years, to focus on defense (primarily) and center, and in 2018-2019, we added both a top C and a top D to the NHL team.

 

[arso40]

No, it didn't. We added Muzzin that same season.

The only thing you even pretended to address was my statement that "we used 16-17 (depending on how one classifies Holmberg) of our next 22 picks over the next 3 years on C and D prospects", but you misread it and started talking about the top couple rounds of the 2017 draft for some reason. I reiterated my statement, and expanded on the defensive drafting we did, and you ignored it. You also asked a question about our organizational center depth, which I answered, and you also ignored. Everything else has been you falsely accusing other people of doing the very thing you're doing.

Our relative weaknesses in the early Matthews era was defense and center. We had to rent centers in each of the first two years (even before Bozak left and Kadri became unreliable), and our defensive results were near the bottom of the league. We shifted our drafting over the next 3 years, to focus on defense (primarily) and center, and in 2018-2019, we added both a top C and a top D.

When we should have added another top 4 instead of holl playing that high in the line up that 11 mill could have been allocated to the bacc end there’s a reason nobody has 2 11 mill centers not even the oilers

 

[Gallagbi]

When we should have added another top 4 instead of holl playing that high in the line up that 11 mill could have been allocated to the bacc end there’s a reason nobody has 2 11 mill centers not even the oilers

Didnt we add 2 top 4 D in Muzz + Brodie after signing Tavares?

I addressed it and you avoided it (as usual) so you wouldn't have to admit you were wrong. But please continue your personal attacks on me.

Looks like it was addressed and answered in detail, what do you think was missed?

 

[arso40]

Didnt we add 2 top 4 D in Muzz + Brodie after signing Tavares?


Looks like it was addressed and answered in detail, what do you think was missed?

I think you guys are clearly missing the point muzzin was traded for before we got brodie I’m pretty sure but even if it was the same year instead of spending 11 mil on a center when you have a number 1 already and force yourself to play holl in your top 4 how about getting a third line center that plays with grit and another top 4 that pushes holl down or out of the line up altogether

 

[Dekes For Days]

When we should have added another top 4 instead of holl playing that high in the line up

There wasn't even roster space for another top-4 D that year. There were players we had to get rid of first.
We added Barrie and Ceci to our top-4 the next year, and then added Brodie in 2020.
Holl didn't really arrive until 2019-2020, and didn't play significant minutes until 2020-2021, when he did really well in a shutdown role with Muzzin.

 

[arso40]

There wasn't even roster space for another top-4 D that year. There were players we had to get rid of first.
We added Barrie and Ceci to our top-4 the next year, and then added Brodie in 2020.
Holl didn't really arrive until 2019-2020, and didn't play significant minutes until 2020-2021, when he did really well in a shutdown role with Muzzin.

Who was our top 4 let’s cut the musical chairs I’m willing to bet we could have been a Stanley cup team if we didn’t go all forward no d

 

[Gallagbi]

I think you guys are clearly missing the point muzzin was traded for before we got brodie I’m pretty sure but even if it was the same year instead of spending 11 mil on a center when you have a number 1 already and force yourself to play holl in your top 4 how about getting a third line center that plays with grit and another top 4 that pushes holl down or out of the line up altogether

We got Tavares in the summer 2018, then traded for Muzzin that spring (following). After that playoff and Kadri's suspension, they tried to trade him for Brodie, which fell through and the switched to Barrie on an expiring deal signing Brodie the following offseason. So D was always a focus on upgrading.

That 2018 summer (Tavares) was very limited on D. Ian Cole was the biggest signings at 4.25M

Holl didn't play a single playoff game in Tavares first year btw