Player Development

[Fogelhund]

If you're not getting results with the players you have been given, maybe it's the players. You can't make a good chicken stew out of hummingbird wings.

Have we drafted enough potential NHL D? Have we kept them long enough to develop properly? How many of our traded away prospects and picks were/could have been defencemen?

It's a vicious circle right? You've traded too many picks and prospects, and now don't have prospects to fill positions, so you've got to trade more picks and prospects.

No you can't create stars out of mediocre players, but you can maximize what you get out of each one, and if you develop a good long-term plan, maybe you don't need to trade away so many picks and prospects, which in turn means later on, you might not need to trade more picks and prospects... it's like being stuck on a treadmill endlessly.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Well... I'm hoping the 60+ crowd is around for more than 10 years.. and I suspect it would take less than that to pay dividends. It's more like 4-5 years from draft to NHL for the average D man....

I'd also hope that the org could take a long-term view, and build for more than just then next 10 years.. big ask I know.

As a member of the 70+ crowd, I may have less time than most, but if there's one thing I've learned it's that rushing and/or taking shortcuts very rarely works. As my Dad used to say, "more haste, less speed".

 

[1specter]

It is weird that over the past 10 years, the leafs have shown that they can clearly develop forwards, and do it pretty well too. But when it comes to defence and goaltending really, they are completely lost. How can you be so great at developing one position, but so poor at the others? But I guess this doesnt just happen to the Leafs. You have orgs like Nashville that clearly do a great job developing D men and goalies but when it comes to forwards theyre lost.

It does seem they are at least turning the corner with goalies. Woll has shown to at least be a tandem / platoon calibre goalie at the NHL level so far and our goalie pipeline is the most full it's been. Now, granted goalies are a crapshoot often and no guarantee that these guys amount to anything, but Akthyamov, Peksa, Cavallin, Hildeby have at least shown some encouraging signs. Petruzzelli has had his moments but has struggled this year, and I've given up on McKay.

 

[notDatsyuk]

It's a vicious circle right? You've traded too many picks and prospects, and now don't have prospects to fill positions, so you've got to trade more picks and prospects.

No you can't create stars out of mediocre players, but you can maximize what you get out of each one, and if you develop a good long-term plan, maybe you don't need to trade away so many picks and prospects, which in turn means later on, you might not need to trade more picks and prospects... it's like being stuck on a treadmill endlessly.

Agreed. I'm just saying that it's not necessarily the fault of the program - at least the coaching part of it.

 

[1specter]

I said theyve done a solid job with forwards.

Hyman, Kapanen, Johnsson, Bunting etc all took positive steps forward while being with the leafs.
When you compare that to D, its a stark difference. Sandin, Lilj, Dermott etc never hit similar highs as these guys and we were often left underwhelmed.

We also have some guys that have gone elsewhere and carved out decent careers / roles. Trevor Moore, Mason Marchment and Barbanov come to mind - these were more poor asset management by Dubas and Keefe.

 

[The Iceman]

I agree with Hyman, Kappa never really developed, Bunting we did not develope, he was FA.
I consider development as 3rd 4th 5th rounders who the Marlies turn into very effective players...not been many. There are 3 or 4 on Marlies right now that could be future key guys, so maybe next year. We have zero effective 3 or4 lines guys which can from their. McMann is coming, Robertson is working that way, but not yet key guys.

Hyman and Trevor Moore are probably the best 2 examples of guys really developing.
Not sure if we can claim Marchment or not??

 

[Peasy]

We also have some guys that have gone elsewhere and carved out decent careers / roles. Trevor Moore, Mason Marchment and Barbanov come to mind - these were more poor asset management by Dubas and Keefe.

Mikheyev as well. Leafs have brought in a lot of forwards over the years with little to no NHL experience and have turned them into NHLers with long careers. Wish we had a similar success with D.

 

[Menzinger]

Claims about the effectiveness/ineffectiveness of a program aren't particularly useful unless there's something tangible to compare it to - ie how well other teams do (which in turn probably needs to get broken down further between high draft pick development vs mid to late round pick development).

The Leafs are certainly doing better than they were during the early part of the cap era, but how we stack up to the average NHL team is less known

 

[Stephen]

It is weird that over the past 10 years, the leafs have shown that they can clearly develop forwards, and do it pretty well too. But when it comes to defence and goaltending really, they are completely lost. How can you be so great at developing one position, but so poor at the others? But I guess this doesnt just happen to the Leafs. You have orgs like Nashville that clearly do a great job developing D men and goalies but when it comes to forwards theyre lost.

I’ve seen the same pattern you’ve just identified over the years with strong F development and poor D and G development with Toronto.

While player acquisition via trade, draft and signings kind of shapes a lot of what comes out of a system, I wonder if they just over-emphasize certain skills development a la Darryl Belfry that translate well for forwards but don’t really help a meat and potatoes D-man with body positioning, system play and other non finesse traits?

On the other hand, I can point to franchises like Anaheim, Nashville, Los Angeles, some of the prototypical western conference teams that churn out a lot of defensemen including unexciting big fridge defenders on a regular basis. They certain draft for those kind of guys but they probably also have a good developmental system that just programs them to play a certain way.

Goaltending is its own thing. So that could definitely use its own department.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

ML$E can't be bothered developing defensemen and goalies for one good reason.

Those guys don't put the puck in the net. The aim of the game is to outscore your opponent. The easiest way to ensure that is by having the best forwards.

Keeping the puck out of your own net should only be of secondary consideration to putting it in theirs.

Who's the highest paid players in the league anyway? How many times do you see a highlight reel goal compared to a highlight reel save? Why would ML$E want a star goalie or defenseman on their team?

The objective here isn't to win.

It's to sell tickets and merchandise. Those four forwards earning half the cap probably account for 80% of the swag sales. Nobody's gonna buy the goalie's jersey.

If you were an owner looking to maximize shareholder equity who would you rather have on the team?

 

[Arzak]

ML$E can't be bothered developing defensemen and goalies for one good reason.

Those guys don't put the puck in the net. The aim of the game is to outscore your opponent. The easiest way to ensure that is by having the best forwards.

Keeping the puck out of your own net should only be of secondary consideration to putting it in theirs.

Who's the highest paid players in the league anyway? How many times do you see a highlight reel goal compared to a highlight reel save? Why would ML$E want a star goalie or defenseman on their team?

The objective here isn't to win.

It's to sell tickets and merchandise. Those four forwards earning half the cap probably account for 80% of the swag sales. Nobody's gonna buy the goalie's jersey.

If you were an owner looking to maximize shareholder equity who would you rather have on the team?

I hear you. They need Dominik Hasek !!!

 

[notDatsyuk]

ML$E can't be bothered developing defensemen and goalies for one good reason.

Those guys don't put the puck in the net. The aim of the game is to outscore your opponent. The easiest way to ensure that is by having the best forwards.

Keeping the puck out of your own net should only be of secondary consideration to putting it in theirs.

Who's the highest paid players in the league anyway? How many times do you see a highlight reel goal compared to a highlight reel save? Why would ML$E want a star goalie or defenseman on their team?

The objective here isn't to win.

It's to sell tickets and merchandise. Those four forwards earning half the cap probably account for 80% of the swag sales. Nobody's gonna buy the goalie's jersey.

If you were an owner looking to maximize shareholder equity who would you rather have on the team?

Is it better to lose 6-5 or win 2-1?

I think the problem is as much that it is harder to find and develop D and G, and that didn't fit the quick fix mentality of management.

 

[Buds17]

Is it better to lose 6-5 or win 2-1?

I think the problem is as much that it is harder to find and develop D and G, and that didn't fit the quick fix mentality of management.

It could be that. However, it could also be that they are/were of the opinion that offence/forwards is/are viewed as the biggest catalyst to winning and the most valuable of trade commodities to address what the team might not have enough of. All of which isn't necessarily to suggest that management would be correct in such a belief. I can typically agree that developing D and G are challenging though.

 

[Niagara Bill]

It does seem they are at least turning the corner with goalies. Woll has shown to at least be a tandem / platoon calibre goalie at the NHL level so far and our goalie pipeline is the most full it's been. Now, granted goalies are a crapshoot often and no guarantee that these guys amount to anything, but Akthyamov, Peksa, Cavallin, Hildeby have at least shown some encouraging signs. Petruzzelli has had his moments but has struggled this year, and I've given up on McKay.

In 10 ýears who have they developed at forward? They gave drafted a few that immediately made the team.
They didn't develop Knies.
Jarnrok is not a success.222

Who says they aren't doing that? It seems like there's a big assumption they just don't care or aren't doing enough when I'm saying it's just not fair to say that and it's a lot more complicated than looking at who's hired and making your own conclusions that the program isn't good enough

Not that complicated. If you continuously trade assets and draft choice you are not confident in your ability to select and develop.
Did Shanny and Dubas always talk long term.
If after 10 years you have not won or reached the finals you are not successful I would suggest.
If after 20 yrs or 56 for that matter you are not successful.
When you finally develop Hyman and replace him with inferior expensive rentals like Bertuzzi, you are not successful.
All in all you can count on 1 hand the number of valuable players we have developed in 10 yrs.
The other side of development is believing in them in your system, we have failed in that too.

 

[WTFMAN99]

It's a vicious circle right? You've traded too many picks and prospects, and now don't have prospects to fill positions, so you've got to trade more picks and prospects.

No you can't create stars out of mediocre players, but you can maximize what you get out of each one, and if you develop a good long-term plan, maybe you don't need to trade away so many picks and prospects, which in turn means later on, you might not need to trade more picks and prospects... it's like being stuck on a treadmill endlessly.

Even goes back to a lot of people this year wanting to trade picks etc for rentals when the group clearly isn't winning anything.

Where do you expect to get players from?

 

[DraftSchmaft]

Leafs spend so much money on suits we practically have 100 GMs. Already too many chefs in the kitchen.

Stop burning picks on garbage and / or just draft and draft well. That's it.

 

[Fogelhund]

Leafs spend so much money on suits we practically have 100 GMs. Already too many chefs in the kitchen.

Stop burning picks on garbage and / or just draft and draft well. That's it.

Your user name, and post have me confused. We got too good, too quick... our young players excelled too early, ended up having to pay them too much, and we went all in, too early, moving picks and prospects. We should have endured more pain, for a little longer, and probably greater long-term success.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

I hear you. They need Dominik Hasek !!!

A prime Scott Stevens wouldn't hurt either.

Is it better to lose 6-5 or win 2-1?

I think the problem is as much that it is harder to find and develop D and G, and that didn't fit the quick fix mentality of management.

Dubas also probably read the same research papers I did that suggest focusing on drafting forwards and then trading for defense and goaltending because reasons that don't entirely make sense.

The damned of it is that they did draft and develop defense to some extent. Dermott, Durzi, and Sandin were three of Dubas' first five picks. They're all playing in the NHL.

Just not for the Toronto Maple Leafs.

 

[Menzinger]

ML$E can't be bothered developing defensemen and goalies for one good reason.

Those guys don't put the puck in the net. The aim of the game is to outscore your opponent. The easiest way to ensure that is by having the best forwards.

Keeping the puck out of your own net should only be of secondary consideration to putting it in theirs.

Who's the highest paid players in the league anyway? How many times do you see a highlight reel goal compared to a highlight reel save? Why would ML$E want a star goalie or defenseman on their team?

The objective here isn't to win.

It's to sell tickets and merchandise. Those four forwards earning half the cap probably account for 80% of the swag sales. Nobody's gonna buy the goalie's jersey.

If you were an owner looking to maximize shareholder equity who would you rather have on the team?

Which goalie have the Leafs missed in the first round in the last decade by taking a forward instead? Even the second round?

 

[Mickey Marner]

I don’t think it’s a matter of not utilizing resources, they’re just incompetent. Pro scouting is arguably even worse.

 

[darrylsittler27]

The Leafs don't develop forwards. They develop wingers the least important position. You take out Mathews who was a shoo in and C looks horrible. Defense is Niemela and that's it. Goal? Who knows? This organization is obsessed with doing everything the wrong way. You don't win cups with a bunch of flash wingers.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

In 10 ýears who have they developed at forward? They gave drafted a few that immediately made the team.
They didn't develop Knies.
Jarnrok is not a success.222
Not that complicated. If you continuously trade assets and draft choice you are not confident in your ability to select and develop.
Did Shanny and Dubas always talk long term.
If after 10 years you have not won or reached the finals you are not successful I would suggest.
If after 20 yrs or 56 for that matter you are not successful.
When you finally develop Hyman and replace him with inferior expensive rentals like Bertuzzi, you are not successful.
All in all you can count on 1 hand the number of valuable players we have developed in 10 yrs.
The other side of development is believing in them in your system, we have failed in that too.

Knies would still count as developed since the team still would have been working with him in video sessions and workout programs even if it wasn't in person over 2 years. Plus he still would have been a part of development and rookie camps in the summer.

As for forwards we've developed.

Engvall
Holmberg
Robertson
Grundstrom
Brooks

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Which goalie have the Leafs missed in the first round in the last decade by taking a forward instead? Even the second round?

That I could find, Hart and Gustavsson in the 2nd. We took Korshkov. Gus would've been a reach at the time.

Not a forward but we took Lilly and Oettinger went later that round. He would've been a big reach too at the time.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Which goalie have the Leafs missed in the first round in the last decade by taking a forward instead? Even the second round?

A little disingenuous considering I didn't mention the word draft in my comment even once, most goalies aren't drafted until after the first two rounds, and you completely ignored defensemen altogether.

I can think of at least one instance off the top of my head where they drafted yet another scoring forward, instead of a defenseman like everyone was pushing for, but I think it would be in poor taste to discuss that hypothetical.

 

[Fogelhund]

I can think of at least one instance off the top of my head where they drafted yet another scoring forward, instead of a defenseman like everyone was pushing for, but I think it would be in poor taste to discuss that hypothetical.

That would have been difficult to talk about which was the right pick for years from now anyway. Amirov is probably a 50-60 point forward at this point, and Schneider is a third pairing D.... of course 22 year old D takes a few more years to fully mature and learn the position, so it's quite some time before we know what his potential is.

Amirov probably still is the right pick, if the unfortunate hadn't happened... you don't pick for positional need. You pick the BPA, and Amirov was that.