GWT: PL Matchweek 17

[Evilo]

2-3 years ago, you would have looked at that Liverpool squad and think : meh, only Fabinho is elite.
And yet he's on their bench most games because Klopp has made those players fullfill their top potential, progress or overachieve.
That's what good coaches do.
Salah was good with Roma, but never comparable to the Egyptian Messi of last year.

 

[Stray Wasp]

Waspy if you haven't written a book yet or at least in progress of writing a book... it's an injustice. The way you write is too captivating not to.

Thank you.

Like Jeeves, I endeavour to give satisfaction.

 

[Jussi]

A

And? Neville contradicts himself and clearly can't separate his love for United and accurately commenting on Mourinho. Keane's examples of Guardiola and Klopp don't really hold much water not to mention his reference of Mourinho at Madrid. Carragher is the one who makes sense here. United's problem isn't just a CB and if one can't separate United's off the pitch management with Mourinho's management then they don't know what they're talking about.

Que?

The point was Neville's comment that United shouldn't have given Mourinho an extension so quickly. His 3rd years are known and making him earn that extension would have been the smarter option.

 

[PeteWorrell]

2-3 years ago, you would have looked at that Liverpool squad and think : meh, only Fabinho is elite.
And yet he's on their bench most games because Klopp has made those players fullfill their top potential, progress or overachieve.
That's what good coaches do.
Salah was good with Roma, but never comparable to the Egyptian Messi of last year.

Klopp also bought a dirt cheap Saqiri who could never really put it together consistantly elsewhere but has been very good off the bench this season. Oxlade-Chamberlain was also excellent last year before his injury after years of being inconsistant at Arsenal.

 

[S E P H]

Glad I missed the Arsenal game, I know it's only Soton, but playing the back line that we had to was asking for a loss.

Holy smokes, United got their asses kicked and the game wasn't even close. Listening to Gary Neville go into his child whining voice about Man U was hilarious and so predictable. "Streets apart, they're streets apart".

This game was a good reality cheque for the Arsenal though. A game where we should've won against United and drew, Liverpool came in and just annihilated them from the beginning to the end - 36 shot attempts to 6 is just domination. Even though there are a lot of great things about this season, a lot more is needed like a huge transition in the backline of player personnel. I also think we can increase our depth, but Arsenal has never had it so I wouldn't be too surprised if they don't fix it. Injuries are piling up and now Bellerin is injured for a couple of weeks - yikes.

 

[S E P H]

Leno garbage play to throw the game away.

3 crosses 3 headers 3 goals.

Yeah, I am starting to see some of the negatives of Leno from the Bundesliga fans. Don't get me wrong he has been mostly solid, but holy smokes his decision making at times is iffy and sometimes he doesn't read the play developing enough. Not sure he's good enough in the long run for us who want Arsenal to rise to the Liverpool ranks, he seems perfect for Wenger's 4th place aspirations.

How so?
I'm being honest.
CL finalist and EPL leaders. Imagine that two years ago.
And then project with the current XI. People would say you're mad.

Yeah. but I also think Liverpool fans should stay humble considering where they were with Rodgers and that almost every team besides City has gone through that same experience. Arsenal did for a decade of past-his-time-Wenger.

 

[Live in the Now]

Still humble. Enjoying the run while it lasts though. This is the best team we’ve had while I was a supporter and honestly even though other teams won trophies it isn’t that close.

No disrespect to those other teams but I didn’t ever imagine that Liverpool would have conceded only 7 goals by now. And not lost by now.

 

[Evilo]

Still humble. Enjoying the run while it lasts though. This is the best team we’ve had while I was a supporter and honestly even though other teams won trophies it isn’t that close.

No disrespect to those other teams but I didn’t ever imagine that Liverpool would have conceded only 7 goals by now. And not lost by now.

As you should. Klopp should get a lot of credit for turning this team around.

 

[Mr Plow]

Still humble. Enjoying the run while it lasts though. This is the best team we’ve had while I was a supporter and honestly even though other teams won trophies it isn’t that close.

No disrespect to those other teams but I didn’t ever imagine that Liverpool would have conceded only 7 goals by now. And not lost by now.

Ditto, except in respect to Manchester United. After the last 25 years they deserve to have our current superiority rubbed in their faces, even if we don't get the silverware expected for a team of this quality.

 

[Evilo]

Apparently, some United officials think this roster should do better.

Good news for everyone in United, bad news for PSG.

 

[Luigi Habs]

Hard to cheer against Liverpool. Really pulling for them. This is how a team should be built. Hire a good coach, recruit smartly without breaking the bank (excwpt for Allisson but they had no choice).

 

[Evilo]

And VVD.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

And Keita.

 

[YNWA14]

Were Firmino and Salah cheap?

 

[YNWA14]

And did you take a look at the pedigree of Liverpool's backline, in terms of how they did without Klopp?
We have two teenagers, a scot unknown and a CB with potential but hardly a big name before he got there.
In midfield, we have a dime a dozen MF (Wij), a guy who was never considered more than a depth player (Milner), a guy who nobody except one poster would consider a great player (Henderson), an african winger who came through L1 to be a decent EPL player (Mane), a brazilian striker known for being good defensively and in link up play but who can't score to save his life (Firmino) and an egyptian winger who was always talented but could never score a dozen goals a season because he always managed to fail.
That's your Liverpool XI status in terms of how they were seen before Klopp arrived.
Now this team reached the CL final and is leading the EPL. Can't you see how it's MAINLY down to the coaching? Klopp made the most of his players, made them progress and for some probably overachieve.

You can always say United's backline sucks. It's not how players are rated now that matters.

Wijnaldum was always extremely talented but held back by injury. He left Holland as the best player in the league and did very well in his first season with Newcastle, and continued to do well with Liverpool in his first season there. Nothing dime a dozen about him.

Milner never played less than 35 games a season (all comps) for City as they became multiple time PL champions.

Henderson was better under Rodgers, and was one of the most important players in their finishing 2nd.

As posters have shown before, Mane tore up Bayern playing for RBL before moving to Southampton where his talent was obvious, and he was quite successful. Obviously surrounding great talents with better players, as long as they fit together will enhance their abilities.

Salah was coming off an incredible season with Roma, playing in a different role.

Firmino was already for years one of the best players in the Bundesliga, and started out his first season with Liverpool struggling with injury. On top of which he wasn't a striker until Klopp moved him there, and doesn't even play there really this season.

van Dijk was already talked about as one of the best defenders in the PL playing for Southampton, and I would say he probably is more to credit for Lovren's better consistency than Klopp.

Then yes, there are teenagers who have been well known talents. I called Gomez being this good well before he broke out, Alexander-Arnold has always been a phenom.

Klopp has done an amazing job with this group, absolutely. Coaching is extremely important. However, it's not like Klopp is working with a bunch of scrubs who couldn't do anything. They were all very good, or very talented players prior to Klopp joining. They fit well together. Also extremely important to this is that most of them are relatively young (or were when they joined).

I'm excited for Paul Pogba to carry United into the top 3 now that Mourinho is gone.

 

[Evilo]

Wijnaldum was always extremely talented but held back by injury. He left Holland as the best player in the league and did very well in his first season with Newcastle, and continued to do well with Liverpool in his first season there. Nothing dime a dozen about him.

Milner never played less than 35 games a season (all comps) for City as they became multiple time PL champions.

Henderson was better under Rodgers, and was one of the most important players in their finishing 2nd.

As posters have shown before, Mane tore up Bayern playing for RBL before moving to Southampton where his talent was obvious, and he was quite successful. Obviously surrounding great talents with better players, as long as they fit together will enhance their abilities.

Salah was coming off an incredible season with Roma, playing in a different role.

Firmino was already for years one of the best players in the Bundesliga, and started out his first season with Liverpool struggling with injury. On top of which he wasn't a striker until Klopp moved him there, and doesn't even play there really this season.

van Dijk was already talked about as one of the best defenders in the PL playing for Southampton, and I would say he probably is more to credit for Lovren's better consistency than Klopp.

Then yes, there are teenagers who have been well known talents. I called Gomez being this good well before he broke out, Alexander-Arnold has always been a phenom.

Klopp has done an amazing job with this group, absolutely. Coaching is extremely important. However, it's not like Klopp is working with a bunch of scrubs who couldn't do anything. They were all very good, or very talented players prior to Klopp joining. They fit well together. Also extremely important to this is that most of them are relatively young (or were when they joined).

I'm excited for Paul Pogba to carry United into the top 3 now that Mourinho is gone.

We're used to it. Every Liverpool youngster is supposed to be a super uber talented next superstar kind and every dime a dozen player that signs there is of course a super talented player.
Wij was NEVER "extremely talented". Heck he's still not.
Milner IS a depth player. Versatile but totally depth player.
Alpha Hendo is a club player. Depth player no more.
Mane, although talented, was never a CL final type of player.
Salah was always all about potential and not much end product. He had more goals last year than the previous 3 years combined.
Firmino also scored more in his last seasons than the previous 2. Clearly not someone who would start at 9 in a CL final.
VVD was hardly talked about as among the best EPL defensemen in 2016. That's simply not true.

They are all playing great football together because they buy into Klopp's tactics and style. That's a huge positive. It takes nothing away from them. But the credit goes to Klopp. Most of these guys wouldn't be and might never be again at that level if not under Klopp.

It'll be hard, no matter the coach to make up for the lost points.
But yes, I think if United gets a good coach like Klopp or Guardiola (you don't find that in every corner, something that seems to escape you, like many things), they 'll reach top 3 next year.
So, you swinged and missed again :
1- I specifically said United would be top 3 with Guardiola or Klopp. None is coming to United.
2- Lost points don't come back miraculously so we're talking next year.

 

[YNWA14]

So you're saying young players that never played for a big club before were never CL final players? News to me. For a guy that always talks about 'watching over stats' you sure love to cherry pick when it suits your arguments. Where did I talk about goals? Firmino was an attacking mid in Germany and still put up decent goal stats, on not great teams (again, he was one of the best players in the BL as noted by many before coming to Liverpool). As much flak as Henderson gets he's been integral to multiple title challenging teams (under different managers and one could argue that they may have even won the title if he'd not seen red at City, including one that made the CL final last season, as you have pointed out) as well as a fairly invigorated England national team. You literally don't know anything about Wijnaldum so there's no point in debating that one. van Dijk went for a world record fee because he wasn't thought of as a top defender?

We've already established that coaches make a difference; that doesn't mean that Klopp doesn't have a great team to work with. He does. United can have some talent without being better than the other top 6, and still have a bad manager, which is the case (or was until today).

 

[Evilo]

LOL.
No, young players don't become CL final starters (and good ones I mean) overnight, except if they're uber talents like Mbappe or Messi. Didn't think I need to say that.
I talked about goals. Firmino had more goals last year than the previous 2 combined. For Salah it's even worse, it's 3 years. So YEAH these players benefited GREATLY from playing under Klopp.
Henderson on multiple title challenging teams? I can think of one. Can you elaborate?
I don't know Wij, lol. OK. Such an all star with Newcastle too. He was a good but not great AM. He's now playing at DM/CM. His value has changed tremendously since he joined Klopp.
VVD got sold in january 2018. Maybe you forgot, but the point was that 2 years ago, those guys were hardly considered elite. Remember now?

Klopp has a good team to work with. Not a great team (in terms of indivdual). He doesn't have any pre-established elite player on his roster, except maybe Fabinho, which he doesn't even start most games (though that could change).
Mourinho has elite talents (pre Mourinho) in his lineup. Sanchez, Pogba for starters, and close to elite Lukaka, Mata, Martial, etc...
Yet all are looking like bottom half players right now.

See, that's what a great coach vs a bad coach does. One team is playing out of their mind, with confidence to win even when they don't play good football, the other is full of doubts with players underachieving at every position.

As for your attempt to troll about Pogba, I'm happy you dropped it.

 

[YNWA14]

None of those players became 'CL final starters and good ones overnight'. You're taking accomplishments out of context without looking at what the individual player brings to the table. It doesn't matter what manager comes in they're not going to get Sanchez, Pogba and Lukaku to work together at an elite level. Sanchez was elite because he had a team built around him and was given a free role, Pogba has always been insulated by better players and has never lived up to his talent, and Mata has been past his prime for a while. Martial and Lukaku close to elite...that's a good one. Firmino, Salah and van Dijk have always had elite talent but weren't established yet.

Henderson was with Rodgers, made the semi-final of the world cup (going out in extra time), and was a big part of Liverpool making a CL final. (among other trophies).

Again with the goals...what does that have to do with how good the player was? Salah didn't score as much but was absolutely elite with Roma before Liverpool bought him. Firmino was already for 3 years one of the best players in the BL. Neither of those players had the primary role of goal scoring in their previous teams/positions (and Firmino was actually quite unlucky the previous year as his chances created were on a very similar level, his primary role was never goal scoring and still isn't). van Dijk didn't just start existing in 2018 -- there was a track record that Liverpool were looking at when justifying his fee.

Age matters. Firmino, Mane and Salah were 24/25 and entering their primes when bought so of course if they are going to make good on their talents it's going to be with the team that has them during that time. Same for Wijnaldum (who again, you're completely off about). Again, that doesn't mean Klopp hasn't helped or isn't doing a great job.

But if you genuinely believe that United have more talent than the other big teams in the PL all the power to you.

 

[les Habs]

All this talk about United's squad not having players good enough to play in the top four (can't believe somebody said top six) sides at the moment is nonsense. They have plenty of players who could start in those sides:

De Gea: Could start at Liverpool, City, Spurs and Chelsea
Pogba: Could start at Liverpool, City, Spurs and Chelsea
Sanchez: Could start at Liverpool, City, Spurs and Chelsea
Herrera: Could start at Liverpool, City, Spurs and Chelsea

Then guys like Martial and Bailly, Matic who you could make a case for at multiple clubs. Same to a lesser extent for both Mata and Lukaku. This is somewhat subjective of course, but when you think of those players playing for Guardiola, Klopp, Sarri or Pochettino (depending on the player) you would see a notable improvement.

United aren't a side that I see winning the title when you compare the talent on their side vs that of Liverpool or City. However they're clearly a squad good enough for third if they're managed well. If one can't see the talent that Mourinho had at his disposal and how they were underperforming in large part down to his leadership (tactics, selection, man-management) then I don't know what to tell you. As I've said since day one, the situation at United can't entirely be laid at Mourinho's doorstep, but a lot of it can because he clearly wasn't doing well with the squad he had.

Que?

The point was Neville's comment that United shouldn't have given Mourinho an extension so quickly. His 3rd years are known and making him earn that extension would have been the smarter option.

Yeah, and then right after that he made a case for not getting rid of him. And if you really want to blame the upper management for giving him an extension then you should know that they never should have signed him in the first place.

 

[Evilo]

So we're left with Henderson on title challenging teams before Klopp to... that Rodgers year. OK.
No, Salah wasn't elite for Roma. Firmino wasn't elite in the BL.
Or else you could say Martial was elite for Monaco when they got that CL run.

Elite is not established overnight. Pogba, Sanchez were elite at some point. Among the best at their position. Pogba showed why last summer in fact (contrary to your saying he never lived up to his talent).

And yes it's possible to get elite players to play together, I assure you. If there's one thing Zidane did well as a coach, it's this. Barca has done it for years.
And by elite I mean real elite. Not your loose definition.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Am I the only one who don’t think Pochettino can translate his success if he leaves for Man United?

 

[Vasilevskiy]

I still don't see what Firmino has to be considered elite. Very good team player IMO... I guess my scope of elite includes less players.

 

[Evilo]

I still don't see what Firmino has to be considered elite. Very good team player IMO... I guess my scope of elite includes less players.

Don't even try. YNWA rated him as first stiker in our draft.

 

[YNWA14]

I still don't see what Firmino has to be considered elite. Very good team player IMO... I guess my scope of elite includes less players.

I find it weird since I assume you are someone who puts Messi well above Ronaldo, that you wouldn't be able to appreciate everything besides productivity that Firmino brings to the team. Watch the game against Manchester United and you can see just how important he is. He literally contributes to every part of what Liverpool does on the field, in every zone (and he's still quite productive, for what he does).