GWT: PL Matchweek 17

[Vasilevskiy]

At the expense of who?

City, Spurs and Liverpool are better. When Hazard is doing his thing, Chelsea probably are as well.

It is not a matter of talent of the roster, players overachieve/underachieve all the time. Look at Vegas last year.

With Guardiola, Utd would be a top-4 team easily. If you push me #3.

I think Arsenal is underrated around here btw

 

[Chimaera]

It is not a matter of talent of the roster, players overachieve/underachieve all the time. Look at Vegas last year.

With Guardiola, Utd would be a top-4 team easily. If you push me #3.

I think Arsenal is underrated around here btw

Yes, players under achieve and over achieve all the time. But City and Liverpool are clearly better (even with Pogba in the side). Spurs are arguably better, and I think a strong case could be made for Arsenal.

Which United player starts for any of the top 5? DDG, yes (though he's not been good this year). Pogba (if used right and on form, neither of which is happening now). Is that it? Maybe you could make an argument that one or two others might play for Arsenal.

2 players.

They don't have enough talent, Pep, SAF or anyone else managing the club.


It's completely fine to dump on Jose. He deserves a lot of it. But he's got crap that they spent real money on who isn't worth what they paid.

 

[Evilo]

At the expense of who?

City, Spurs and Liverpool are better. When Hazard is doing his thing, Chelsea probably are as well.

Because they're good coached. Give United a good coach and they're clearly superior to Spurs for instance. Much more firepower. More firepower than Chelsea although not as good defensively.

 

[Evilo]

It is not a matter of talent of the roster, players overachieve/underachieve all the time. Look at Vegas last year.

With Guardiola, Utd would be a top-4 team easily. If you push me #3.

I think Arsenal is underrated around here btw

Yup.
That's what good coaches do. As a Liverpool fan, you should know this fully well.
Only reason they're on the map right now is Klopp. They had one single good year in 10 years before that.

 

[phisherman]

Man U wouldn't finish above Shit and Pool with Pep yet finished above them last season.....

 

[Evilo]

Yes, players under achieve and over achieve all the time. But City and Liverpool are clearly better (even with Pogba in the side). Spurs are arguably better, and I think a strong case could be made for Arsenal.

Which United player starts for any of the top 5? DDG, yes (though he's not been good this year). Pogba (if used right and on form, neither of which is happening now). Is that it? Maybe you could make an argument that one or two others might play for Arsenal.

2 players.

They don't have enough talent, Pep, SAF or anyone else managing the club.


It's completely fine to dump on Jose. He deserves a lot of it. But he's got crap that they spent real money on who isn't worth what they paid.

Please that's ridiculous. In form Martial and Soanchez start for most teams, in form Lukaku is Chelsea's starter, in form Mata is a top player, in form Herrera is starting for Spurs too, etc, etc, etc...
Problem is that you continue to hise their current Mourinho form as the standard.
You think a guy like Son, Willian or Lucas are better in terms of inner talent than Sanchez or Martial?
Of course not. Yet they're all better right now.

 

[Chimaera]

Juan Mata is 30. He's gonna be 31 this season, and he never was a physical specimen. He's not a top player anymore, Jose or not. Sanchez is 30 in days and has more miles on his tires than a 92 Honda Accord. There's an argument to say that both are past it, with Sanchez having astronomical wages. You also have to cater your side to help their abilities. I don't think Pep does that. Herrera with a better manager might make improvements, but that's not a guarantee. Martial is a talent, but it's always been about potential more so than his actual performance. He needs a move more than he needs a new manager.

But once again, you're ignoring their severe problem that I've stated over and over that would prevent most managers from getting them higher up the table. Sure, they need to score goals, and much of their offensive players aren't. But their backline is trash. None of that backline is worth much of anything. They've let in 29 goals. That's borderline criminal for a team who is supposed to get in to the top 4. Certainly, Pep might be able to improve it some, but it's not like Jose isn't know for playing defensively. He's got 8-9 behind the ball and they still can't stop it.

 

[hatterson]

The reason it looks like Liverpool has more talent is because they do. Poor buys factor into that, but it's separate and aside from the other issues United have at the moment (Liverpool having more talent, that is).

Right, but my point was that the reason for the talent gap isn't because United are Watford trying to punch up the table while never spending more than 20m on a player. The reason for the talent gap is because Mourinho is a terrible manager now and has done brutal in terms of who he's bought.

Between Alexis, Pogba, and Lukaku he's spent something like 250 million on players who should be helping the attack. One is injured but would almost for sure be on the bench if he wasn't, another spent the entire game on the bench, and the third had an absolute joke of a performance.

 

[Evilo]

Juan Mata is 30. He's gonna be 31 this season, and he never was a physical specimen. He's not a top player anymore, Jose or not. Sanchez is 30 in days and has more miles on his tires than a 92 Honda Accord. There's an argument to say that both are past it, with Sanchez having astronomical wages. You also have to cater your side to help their abilities. I don't think Pep does that. Herrera with a better manager might make improvements, but that's not a guarantee. Martial is a talent, but it's always been about potential more so than his actual performance. He needs a move more than he needs a new manager.

But once again, you're ignoring their severe problem that I've stated over and over that would prevent most managers from getting them higher up the table. Sure, they need to score goals, and much of their offensive players aren't. But their backline is trash. None of that backline is worth much of anything. They've let in 29 goals. That's borderline criminal for a team who is supposed to get in to the top 4. Certainly, Pep might be able to improve it some, but it's not like Jose isn't know for playing defensively. He's got 8-9 behind the ball and they still can't stop it.

And did you take a look at the pedigree of Liverpool's backline, in terms of how they did without Klopp?
We have two teenagers, a scot unknown and a CB with potential but hardly a big name before he got there.
In midfield, we have a dime a dozen MF (Wij), a guy who was never considered more than a depth player (Milner), a guy who nobody except one poster would consider a great player (Henderson), an african winger who came through L1 to be a decent EPL player (Mane), a brazilian striker known for being good defensively and in link up play but who can't score to save his life (Firmino) and an egyptian winger who was always talented but could never score a dozen goals a season because he always managed to fail.
That's your Liverpool XI status in terms of how they were seen before Klopp arrived.
Now this team reached the CL final and is leading the EPL. Can't you see how it's MAINLY down to the coaching? Klopp made the most of his players, made them progress and for some probably overachieve.

You can always say United's backline sucks. It's not how players are rated now that matters.

 

[Evilo]

Can't believe it's Liverpool fans that need to be convinced of this. They should be above all the ones seeing the coach makes all the difference.

 

[Savant]

@Evilo very kind words from you on Liverpool there.

 

[Evilo]

@Evilo very kind words from you on Liverpool there.

How so?
I'm being honest.
CL finalist and EPL leaders. Imagine that two years ago.
And then project with the current XI. People would say you're mad.

 

[YNWA14]

Right, but my point was that the reason for the talent gap isn't because United are Watford trying to punch up the table while never spending more than 20m on a player. The reason for the talent gap is because Mourinho is a terrible manager now and has done brutal in terms of who he's bought.

Between Alexis, Pogba, and Lukaku he's spent something like 250 million on players who should be helping the attack. One is injured but would almost for sure be on the bench if he wasn't, another spent the entire game on the bench, and the third had an absolute joke of a performance.

I agree with the buying thing. I think he got a lot out of what he has last season, but their buys have been questionable at best. I just don't agree with the narrative that if you took the same roster and changed the manager to a better one they'd be in the top 4. I think there are at least 4, if not 5, better teams in terms of talent on paper than United right now. That may be down to who has been brought in, but that's a separate issue than the results with the team.

Part of the problem too is that a lot of the players that are supposed to be really good are aging, and were bought aging, and the ones that are young aren't capable of shouldering the biggest responsibilities. Pogba needs to be insulated he's not someone that should be your best field player, Lukaku needs a very specific type of service, Martial just isn't that great, etc.

 

[YNWA14]

Also that assessment of Liverpool players "pre-Klopp" is hilariously slanted.

 

[Evilo]

Also that assessment of Liverpool players "pre-Klopp" is hilariously slanted.

OK do your assessment of those players before Klopp arrived.
No need for best B2B midfielder Alpha Hendo we remember it very well.
Let's talk about the other 10.

 

[VEGASKING]

I think United finish third if you swap managers with any of the other top 4 and probably second at worst if it's for Pep or Klopp.

 

[Live in the Now]

The United dilemma is that they can't get either Pep or Klopp. Or even Poch or Carlo.

 

[phisherman]

The United dilemma is that they can't get either Pep or Klopp. Or even Poch or Carlo.

Conte, Blanc, Jardim?

 

[hatterson]

The United dilemma is that they can't get either Pep or Klopp. Or even Poch or Carlo.

There's no reason they can't go after Blanc who has a recent track record of winning at a big club, managing egos, and dealing with massive expectations.

 

[Chimaera]

I'll respect the concept that managers make players better, but there's a massive gulf between Michael Edwards and Ed Woodward at this stage. Now, maybe Jose has been picking the players and Woodward is just the money guy. Or maybe Klopp is the guy who makes players work, (though talk has been that Edwards has sold him on some of the buys that worked best) but it's not as simple as saying all Klopp or not.

To say otherwise is silly.

 

[Pouchkine]

At this point it's clear the players have quit and can't wait to have Mourinho out.

 

[hatterson]

I'll respect the concept that managers make players better, but there's a massive gulf between Michael Edwards and Ed Woodward at this stage. Now, maybe Jose has been picking the players and Woodward is just the money guy. Or maybe Klopp is the guy who makes players work, (though talk has been that Edwards has sold him on some of the buys that worked best) but it's not as simple as saying all Klopp or not.

To say otherwise is silly.

Woodward is certainly a non-trivial part of the issue. It's clear he takes a much larger role in transfers than just signing the checks. From most of the reports, Mourinho essentially submits a wish list and gives some random updates on it, but Woodward is largely in control of things from there.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Also that assessment of Liverpool players "pre-Klopp" is hilariously slanted.

It’s not that off. I mean Milner was a depth player prior to joining, Mane was good for Southampton but there were questions on whether he’d be able to be a top player at a top club. Firmino was a good young player with potential, Salah was a player that had shown flashes of potential throughout his career but never put it together for a full season. Lovren was incredibly inconsistent, Wijnaldum was solid but never elite.

I mean you’re gonna tell me every player only got better on their own accord and not because Klopp is one of the best coaches in the world and knows how to identify/
put players in a system that plays to their strengths?

 

[Live in the Now]

It’s not that off. I mean Milner was a depth player prior to joining, Mane was good for Southampton but there were questions on whether he’d be able to be a top player at a top club. Firmino was a good young player with potential, Salah was a player that had shown flashes of potential throughout his career but never put it together for a full season. Lovren was incredibly inconsistent, Wijnaldum was solid but never elite.

I mean you’re gonna tell me every player only got better on their own accord and not because Klopp is one of the best coaches in the world and knows how to identify/
put players in a system that plays to their strengths?

Salah was great the season before he went to Liverpool. Just wanted to point that out. Dzeko was the leading scorer in Serie A because of him.

Then Liverpool adds Fabinho and Keita and Alisson who were already great. VVD who was already great and every other team in England wanted him. Now they're far up the table.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Salah was great the season before he went to Liverpool. Just wanted to point that out. Dzeko was the leading scorer in Serie A because of him.

Then Liverpool adds Fabinho and Keita and Alisson who were already great. VVD who was already great and every other team in England wanted him. Now they're far up the table.

Yeah and not everyone there is a product of Klopp of course. Allison, VVD, Keita, Fabinho and players of that sort fit into the “knows who to target” section of my post. Is united as bad as they are right now? Nah. Is part of that Mou’s fault? Definitely. Is part of that because we have a bunch of people running the club who know squat about football? Definitely. But bringing in a new manager with a positive playstyle would make the team more successful for sure.