GWT: PL Match Week 13

[Savant]

Haven't lost in 8 weeks, and are finally winning games.

Yeah definitely. I hadn’t paid attention to them at all besides their game against City. Knew they started of struggling and the league is really tight but was surprised they made it that high.

 

[les Habs]

Money is a big deal. I think they have a shot at one of the two. But if I'm Sancho, do I really want the cash of United, and the odds on chance that there might be a new manager in another window?

I think the struggle is going to be if City, Liverpool or say Real/Barca come calling for either of those players. Do I want to play for Pep or Klopp, or go to United and make a little more money, but potentially not see my trade develop?

Of course United is a gamble if you're Sancho, but then so are the clubs you mentioned at the moment. Well not so much City, but then I wasn't aware a move back was in the cards. I mean take Liverpool for example. Who is he going to displace? At least at United he's likely getting the playing time.

 

[Chimaera]

If Salah, Mane and Firmino hold form, and Klopp envisions him as an attacking forward I guess I see the point. I think there's a good chance that he could find a place a bit further back.

I just think there's a good chance that Liverpool look to refresh one of the forward spots before long. Let Salah or Mane make the big glory move. Pay for three or four players and keep the system rolling.

 

[les Habs]

There's a good chance Liverpool look to refresh plenty of spots. The side looks good for a bit, but it's definitely not getting any younger and that includes the top players. Without knowing the younger players in the organization it looks as though they definitely need to look to some younger players. Plenty of time for that with the money they likely have.

 

[Chimaera]

yeah, it's not a rush. As I pointed out in the other thread, they do have a group of players that could be around for 3-4 seasons before really needing to be replaced. TAA, Robertson, Gomez, Alisson, Fabinho, and Keita could all be around for another couple of seasons. Even some of Mane, Salah or Virgil could be around longer than expected.

The forward group is where they need to refresh some in the next summer or two. I think Sancho could be an option, but I don't think that's set in stone. I think there's an internal debate about letting one of the forwards go, largely because it maximizes return, and gives them even more ammunition to go out and find players.

 

[Savant]

yeah, it's not a rush. As I pointed out in the other thread, they do have a group of players that could be around for 3-4 seasons before really needing to be replaced. TAA, Robertson, Gomez, Alisson, Fabinho, and Keita could all be around for another couple of seasons. Even some of Mane, Salah or Virgil could be around longer than expected.

The forward group is where they need to refresh some in the next summer or two. I think Sancho could be an option, but I don't think that's set in stone. I think there's an internal debate about letting one of the forwards go, largely because it maximizes return, and gives them even more ammunition to go out and find players.

I think LFC are going to start turning over their forwards. I don’t know if anyone leaves this summer, but I think Salah is first to go, probably Summer 2021. Honestly LFC has been doing a a lot of 442/4411 this season on the DL with Henderson on the right. So there is room for Sancho on that right.

here is the other thing - which teams CAN buy a Salah? It’s a really limited pool.

 

[YNWA14]

The talk of Liverpool’s top players age seems extremely misguided. They’re all quite young relative to any point where they’d be past their prime. Not worried at all about that.

 

[Chimaera]

They’re not past prime. But if you’re a believer in the idea that a squad needs refreshing and sometimes top sides need a new hunger, the easiest place is up front. They can easily triple their money, and they can get a player who can slot in relatively easily. Midfield has shown to take a long while for Klopp’s system for some.

 

[les Habs]

People can make of it what they will, but the fact is that the following players will be the ages listed starting next season:

Mane 28
Firmino 28, almost 29
Salah 28
Van Dijk 29

Again, make of that what you will.

yeah, it's not a rush. As I pointed out in the other thread, they do have a group of players that could be around for 3-4 seasons before really needing to be replaced. TAA, Robertson, Gomez, Alisson, Fabinho, and Keita could all be around for another couple of seasons. Even some of Mane, Salah or Virgil could be around longer than expected.

The forward group is where they need to refresh some in the next summer or two. I think Sancho could be an option, but I don't think that's set in stone. I think there's an internal debate about letting one of the forwards go, largely because it maximizes return, and gives them even more ammunition to go out and find players.

I wouldn't sweat the players you mentioned, but even Robertson, Alisson and Fabinho aren't young even if they have plenty of time ahead. Then you've got Wijnaldum, Henderson and Matip. Again, there's time to replace all of these guys, but I'd start considering it sooner rather than later because if you still don't have replacements in two years it'll be cutting it awfully close. That's not to mention a few other guys who while their roles are diminishing still need replacements. I agree with you about refreshing a side, though Liverpool don't need too much of a refresh, but I think they could use a bit more depth. I think you'll see some cash splashing this Summer.

 

[Savant]

The talk of Liverpool’s top players age seems extremely misguided. They’re all quite young relative to any point where they’d be past their prime. Not worried at all about that.

Yes and no. But again look at Barca/Madrid/Bayern over the last couple of seasons. They have aging front lines that they have needed to do some transitioning with, and have various degrees of success. This is something that Liverpool don’t need to do all at once, but it is something they need to be cognizant of.

 

[Chimaera]

People can make of it what they will, but the fact is that the following players will be the ages listed starting next season:

Mane 28
Firmino 28, almost 29
Salah 28
Van Dijk 29

Again, make of that what you will.



I wouldn't sweat the players you mentioned, but even Robertson, Alisson and Fabinho aren't young even if they have plenty of time ahead. Then you've got Wijnaldum, Henderson and Matip. Again, there's time to replace all of these guys, but I'd start considering it sooner rather than later because if you still don't have replacements in two years it'll be cutting it awfully close. That's not to mention a few other guys who while their roles are diminishing still need replacements. I agree with you about refreshing a side, though Liverpool don't need too much of a refresh, but I think they could use a bit more depth. I think you'll see some cash splashing this Summer.

You're not wrong. But at the same time, it's awful hard to produce a side who wins things with everyone in their early 20s. If they do, you'll see them get raided, i.e. Ajax.

There's a debate on who can play longer, and who can still produce as they get older. But yeah, the forwards do need to have a youth injection in the next season or two.

I also agree that this summer (or even winter if they can swing it) will see a good amount of investment. Though some of that needs to be funded by a sale of one of those top players in my opinion. They've banked money, but more would help keep the balance sheet.

 

[Havre]

I would be so impressed by Liverpool if they e.g. sold Salah and bought Sancho and lets say someone like Haaland to replace him. To have the guts to sell high...

Most teams hold on to something that works for too long. Nothing works forever in football - especially when it comes to attackers (CD pairing can be different).

Kane, Eriksen and Alli where sensational for a spell. All "youngish" and you were just expecting them to get better. Ended up being bang average and I was dreaming of having guys like Grealish and McGinn instead (not that they are bad, but Kane, Eriksen and Alli were very very good some years ago as a unit). I think City is experiencing something somewhat similar at the moment. They are still good, but not unplayable the same way they used to be.

Salah, Mane and Firmino have been exceptional for quite some time now. Don't expect them to fall off a cliff or anything, but it just can't last forever the way they have been playing for a couple of years.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

Kane, Eriksen and Alli where sensational for a spell. All "youngish" and you were just expecting them to get better. Ended up being bang average.

*stops paying attention to Havre*

 

[YNWA14]

Plenty of top forwards produce and perform consistently over their careers. Ignoring the most obvious two because they’re generational but look at guys like Lewa, Benzema, Robbery (when healthy), Suarez, Cavani, etc. etc.

That said I wouldn’t be opposed to selling Salah if he wants to move. Would rather keep Firmino and Mane; still no real need to sell any of them at this point. There’s enough money to buy replacements now to groom for the next season or two or at least provide better depth.

 

[Havre]

*stops paying attention to Havre*

Don't even know what this means? Does it mean you believe Kane, Eriksen and Alli have been as good over the last 12 months as they were in 16/17?

 

[Savant]

Plenty of top forwards produce and perform consistently over their careers. Ignoring the most obvious two because they’re generational but look at guys like Lewa, Benzema, Robbery (when healthy), Suarez, Cavani, etc. etc.

That said I wouldn’t be opposed to selling Salah if he wants to move. Would rather keep Firmino and Mane; still no real need to sell any of them at this point. There’s enough money to buy replacements now to groom for the next season or two or at least provide better depth.

It’s funny. Everyone (including myself) would sell Salah first of the front three; but its clear LFC is a much better team when Salah is in it. This is something that the team will need to transition gradually.

 

[YNWA14]

It’s funny. Everyone (including myself) would sell Salah first of the front three; but its clear LFC is a much better team when Salah is in it. This is something that the team will need to transition gradually.

Well it's something that I touched on last season when I spoke about Mane vs. Salah and their importance to the offence. Firmino is in a class of his own and completely different role, but ultimately Salah is not an overly dynamic player in terms of his approach and style; the system and players around him allow for it to be very effective most of the time, but once teams started to play him a certain way his effectiveness definitely decreased (though again, that opens up space and chances for others without a doubt). Firmino and Mane however are much more dynamic players so it's not as easy to just set up a certain way to defend them.

With that said Salah is obviously a top tier player and of course the team is better when he is there because he does force the other team to adjust a certain way or get burned by him. Part of the reason that our team is much better when he is there though is the lack of a real replacement. Ox and Origi have their uses but are in no way similar to Salah nor can they bring what he brings. Liverpool neglected to buy a real back-up, and the Shaqiri signing was never going to be a working fix for the front 3 (IMO) and just seemed odd despite his opportunistic contributions. They likely won't address it in the winter but getting someone that can step in and provide what Salah/Mane can from out wide in a rotational way that can even challenge for a starting spot would be ideal.

I don't know that 'everyone' would sell Salah first, and obviously that wouldn't have been the case just a year ago (I understand, coming off his record breaking season). I do feel people are starting to kind of see that he isn't really a Messi/Ronaldo level player though. Still, I'd prefer to keep him (and obviously the other two) for the next 2 seasons anyway while transitioning in younger/elite players as they learn the system. There's so many minutes to go around with a well oiled machine like this one it really shouldn't be an issue aside from very specific personalities that need to be 'the guy'. I feel like if Klopp can continue grooming this culture of success and camaraderie it should be able to assuage some of those that would not come due to there being established stars (look at teams like Barcelona, City who have or have had elite or very near so rotational players).

 

[spintheblackcircle]

Don't even know what this means? Does it mean you believe Kane, Eriksen and Alli have been as good over the last 12 months as they were in 16/17?

AS good? No, but Kane has been better than "average". Dele and Eriksen, I would agree. But not Kane, I put most of his lack of production down to his ankles.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Striker age can matter a lot or it may not. Pace tends to be the big thing. If thats not the main quality of a guy then you can see production well into their 30s. Lewandowski might be playing his best year and hes “old”.

Where aging really tends to kill is on the wings as pace and endurance is so vital there. Not all fast players make good wingers, but all good wingers are fast.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Striker age can matter a lot or it may not. Pace tends to be the big thing. If thats not the main quality of a guy then you can see production well into their 30s. Lewandowski might be playing his best year and hes “old”.

Where aging really tends to kill is on the wings as pace and endurance is so vital there. Not all fast players make good wingers, but all good wingers are fast.

As long as Kane stays healthy I see no reason to see why he shouldn't age well. He's an incredibly smart forward and will be able to at least be a good poacher into his 30's.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

As long as Kane stays healthy I see no reason to see why he shouldn't age well. He's an incredibly smart forward and will be able to at least be a good poacher into his 30's.

Mueller is a smart striker and he’s also not really gifted physically leading to him not relying on those attributes but that guys was finished by like 27/28. Sometimes it happens

 

[The Abusement Park]

Mueller is a smart striker and he’s also not really gifted physically leading to him not relying on those attributes but that guys was finished by like 27/28. Sometimes it happens

It’s true. He also started at a higher level a couple years younger as well so there’s more wear and tear on his body than Kane.

 

[les Habs]

You're not wrong. But at the same time, it's awful hard to produce a side who wins things with everyone in their early 20s. If they do, you'll see them get raided, i.e. Ajax.

There's a debate on who can play longer, and who can still produce as they get older. But yeah, the forwards do need to have a youth injection in the next season or two.

I also agree that this summer (or even winter if they can swing it) will see a good amount of investment. Though some of that needs to be funded by a sale of one of those top players in my opinion. They've banked money, but more would help keep the balance sheet.

You're not wrong either, but I'm not suggesting going to a side of everyone being in their early 20s. Anyway, it'll be interesting to see what Liverpool do now that they've spent the sort of money they have on Van Dijk and Alisson.

 

[Havre]

AS good? No, but Kane has been better than "average". Dele and Eriksen, I would agree. But not Kane, I put most of his lack of production down to his ankles.

It wasn't a description of their individual quality, but how they have performed like a group.

In 2016/17 they were close to on par with the Liverpool 3. Now such a comparison is rather ridiculous.

My point in this discussion is that like every top line in hockey it never lasts forever. I'm impressed that they have been this good for this long.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Ben Davies will be out for some time with a ligament injury.