Player Discussion PK Subban - Thrown Under The Bus Edition

[Account Terminated]

I understand why the media would do it, but why would Michel Therrien ridicule him?

I'm not in his head, so any guess is pure speculation. My guess: He's a frustrated coach, in a lost season, who preaches a checking game and keeping things tight and then watches his star defenseman turning the puck over when he is stick-handling away. For a coach like Therrien, it's a nightmare. For fans that want to see the team open it up more and take risks, it's frustrating to hear the coach lambaste him to the media when he's one of the only ones giving an honest effort each night.

 

[Whitesnake]

He's a very good player. But is it bad if I don't think he's needed at the Worlds? Put it in the context of what this tournament is all about, just like the Olympics. In the end, if you need d-men with puck skills and offensive abilities, while you might need him, you also can get other canadian d-men that does that, even if it's less spectacular, but also is less at risk defensievly than him. By the way, I'm not saying he's a bad dfensive player. We are not there. We are when it's the time to name 7 canadien d-men in the CONTEXT of a short tournament. Not playoffs. A short tournament. When at one point, every game might be the last. When most offense can practically starts and ends with the forwards we will have compared to this Montreal Canadien team who have no idea what offense is up front except of 2 or 3 guys.

Problem in here is that you might not have him at your top 7-dmen to play with Canada, and you're throwing him under the bus. People have a really thin skin when it's time to evaluate PK. All great to accept the great, but accept the worst too. Putting PK in the 8-10 rank in the context of a tournament is not throwing him under the bus. It might be for the fans who are still at their Karlsson-Subban stupid debate...but it shoudln't be for the rest of the people.

Enough talk about the contract though. You don't throw him under the bus because of that. You throw this supposed brillant management for the way they handled it.

 

[PaulD]

He is an easy target.

Loud target.

Cocky target.

People have fun with it.

Not to mention (some) of his fans beg for everyone to love him. That's nauseating.


I have been a fan of PK since he played junior. Watched him in Hamilton from the front row for an entire season. I like him. Feel no need to convince others to like him.

The first five years of Gretzkys career he was disliked by thousands and thousands. Many wanted him to fail and/or get clobbered
Popularity. Lots of envy I think.

They called Mario, selfish, lazy, cherry picker, floater.
Popularity. Lots of envy I think.

PK ? lots of envy I think.

and he does want to be a celebrity, so he invites it a little bit.

 

[Drydenwasthebest]

Well if thats the case he needs to find a way to it better, especially at picking the moments when he decides to take risks. Too often it happens that he takes chances at the wrong time of the game and usually hurts the team. I'm all for him taking risks, but theres a time and place when to do it.

Actually, that is false. It is not "too often" it is not "often" at all. As for your assertion that he is so much "riskier" than Doughty,Keith, Weber, Vlasic, etc... please read the following before posting that crap again:

http://canucksarmy.com/2014/2/17/the-reports-of-p-k-subban-s-demise-have-been-greatly-exaggerated

Here is a key conclusion that the stats support:
THE CONCLUSION

First of all, there are no bad players on Team Canada. Every single one of these players has elite strengths, and I could only really see an argument that Jay Bouwmeester doesn't belong on the team. That being said, the evidence points to P.K. Subban being Canada's best offensive weapon from the blueline, and probably the second best defender behind Alex Pietrangelo too.

The argument that he's "risky" or untrustworthy is fueled mainly by biases and misconceptions about what "good defense" is. When Subban is on the ice, he's more likely to get a chance to score the next goal than he is to give it up, which is basically all that matters in this discussion.

At the end of the day, the drop off in defensive ability from Subban to Keith is marginal in small samples, as is the drop-off in offensive ability between Subban and Bouwmeester. We're talking like maybe one shot per game. This adds up over a long season, but keeping Subban out of the lineup isn't going to make-or-break Canada's chances to win the gold medal.

With that in mind, it's still reasonable to say that scratching Subban is poor decision making, as you're incurring the opportunity cost of not having a super-elite blueliner in your lineup, instead replacing him with a good-to-very-good one. And in doing that, Mike Babcock and Lindy Ruff are incurring more risk of losing a tight game than P.K. Subban has ever carried.

 

[Miller Time]

Actually, that is false. It is not "too often" it is not "often" at all. As for your assertion that he is so much "riskier" than Doughty,Keith, Weber, Vlasic, etc... please read the following before posting that crap again:

http://canucksarmy.com/2014/2/17/the-reports-of-p-k-subban-s-demise-have-been-greatly-exaggerated

Here is a key conclusion that the stats support:
THE CONCLUSION

First of all, there are no bad players on Team Canada. Every single one of these players has elite strengths, and I could only really see an argument that Jay Bouwmeester doesn't belong on the team. That being said, the evidence points to P.K. Subban being Canada's best offensive weapon from the blueline, and probably the second best defender behind Alex Pietrangelo too.

The argument that he's "risky" or untrustworthy is fueled mainly by biases and misconceptions about what "good defense" is. When Subban is on the ice, he's more likely to get a chance to score the next goal than he is to give it up, which is basically all that matters in this discussion.

At the end of the day, the drop off in defensive ability from Subban to Keith is marginal in small samples, as is the drop-off in offensive ability between Subban and Bouwmeester. We're talking like maybe one shot per game. This adds up over a long season, but keeping Subban out of the lineup isn't going to make-or-break Canada's chances to win the gold medal.

With that in mind, it's still reasonable to say that scratching Subban is poor decision making, as you're incurring the opportunity cost of not having a super-elite blueliner in your lineup, instead replacing him with a good-to-very-good one. And in doing that, Mike Babcock and Lindy Ruff are incurring more risk of losing a tight game than P.K. Subban has ever carried.

Thing is, this is based on as close to objective analysis as one could make... and that is not something people with strongly held subjective biases want, or are capable, to even consider.


for Babcock & co., i give them a greater benefit of the doubt, because another element they surely consider is the "distraction" factor... not, as some erroneously suggest, as far as PK's actual behaviour or character, but instead because of how fans/media perceive him. Any slight slip up on-ice, or in front of a camera, and a ****-storm gets created, whereas his pale-skin counterparts can literally go on a booze-fest fan confronting rant and actually endear themselves more to the media/fans et.

if the gain in playing Subban is only marginally better, the "safer" options is to go with the white -i.e less controversial- guy

its a crappy reality that "outsiders" deal with everywhere, and that even very aware leaders have to consider regardless of their personal opinions/character.

 

[NotProkofievian]

He's a very good player. But is it bad if I don't think he's needed at the Worlds? Put it in the context of what this tournament is all about, just like the Olympics. In the end, if you need d-men with puck skills and offensive abilities, while you might need him, you also can get other canadian d-men that does that, even if it's less spectacular, but also is less at risk defensievly than him. By the way, I'm not saying he's a bad dfensive player. We are not there. We are when it's the time to name 7 canadien d-men in the CONTEXT of a short tournament. Not playoffs. A short tournament. When at one point, every game might be the last. When most offense can practically starts and ends with the forwards we will have compared to this Montreal Canadien team who have no idea what offense is up front except of 2 or 3 guys.

Problem in here is that you might not have him at your top 7-dmen to play with Canada, and you're throwing him under the bus. People have a really thin skin when it's time to evaluate PK. All great to accept the great, but accept the worst too. Putting PK in the 8-10 rank in the context of a tournament is not throwing him under the bus. It might be for the fans who are still at their Karlsson-Subban stupid debate...but it shoudln't be for the rest of the people.

Enough talk about the contract though. You don't throw him under the bus because of that. You throw this supposed brillant management for the way they handled it.

I don't really think that any individual player other than Price is really needed by Team Canada. We're just that good. If we left Crosby and Doughty off the roster, is there anyone saying that we aren't the favourites for Gold in a best on best tournament? No.

That being said if you get eliminated in a tight game, and you took a ''safer,'' less spectacular player than P.K. then you do open yourself to criticism. Or heaven forbid this ''safer'' player is made into a fool resulting in a goal against, and simply doesn't have the talent to help get it back. These are risks as well. I don't think it's particularly likely that P.K. would result in a tournament losing goal, and may help us win a tough matchup. No player is risk free. The most you can hope to do is pick the players whose rewards most outweigh their risks. I think P.K. is certainly at least the 3rd best Canadian RHD in this regard.

 

[417]

Because if it was me in that situation, I would want people to assume it was an honest mistake, not a subconscious racist thought popping out of my mouth.

Again, YOU keep bringing up the 'racism' angle. I've NEVER accused him of being racist, that's impossible for me to know.

But to deny that we're all racially bias, which again, does NOT in itself make us racist is foolish. We're all influenced by things we may not know or understand. It's normal. That doesn't make us racist.

There's a huge difference

So it's my choice to give Pang the benefit of the doubt. If you want to leave the door open to the fact that he meant it, you're leaving the door open to the possibility that Pang is a racist on some level, consciously or not. That's your choice but it involves assuming the worst of someone, which is not something I'm personally in favor of

I'm leaving the door open to the fact that he may have meant it, and not even realize it...which again, does NOT make him a racist. Once more, I have never accused Darren Pang of being a racist. That's a whole other conversation one which I don't have enough information to draw any conclusions on and one that I don't even care to delve into.

You keep bringing it there.

 

[Whitesnake]

I don't really think that any individual player other than Price is really needed by Team Canada. We're just that good. If we left Crosby and Doughty off the roster, is there anyone saying that we aren't the favourites for Gold in a best on best tournament? No.

That being said if you get eliminated in a tight game, and you took a ''safer,'' less spectacular player than P.K. then you do open yourself to criticism. Or heaven forbid this ''safer'' player is made into a fool resulting in a goal against, and simply doesn't have the talent to help get it back. These are risks as well. I don't think it's particularly likely that P.K. would result in a tournament losing goal, and may help us win a tough matchup. No player is risk free. The most you can hope to do is pick the players whose rewards most outweigh their risks. I think P.K. is certainly at least the 3rd best Canadian RHD in this regard.

Thing is a "safer" player will still be able to make a good first pass. Do you actually need a d-man like PK to undress 4 players at a time? Or you can actually leave that to the forwards. On a team like Team Canada, you actually just might need your defense to make a good transition game and defend extremely well. IN that regard, it's easier to NOT need PK. As, again, most of our other top canadian defense also have all that.

In the end, frankly, I just think tha tthis board is too sensitive regarding PK. He's bashed, we automatically hear...."but he does great things". Yes. WE know. But he make a bad play anyway. Don't worry though, I'm not stupid enough to believe that he "cost us the game" last night or the other night. I don't even blame him for the other night. And last night....well maybe more as you are the last player, you don't need to start ducking and all....and he lost it. But we were so not in last night's game that PK didn't cost us anything. But perception is reality. Even more so for people who don't see him as often as we are. And in the context of a tournament, I think it's understandable mostly due to the quality we have, to not see him there. And frankly...I don't care. I couldn't care less to see him there. I want him to be a game changer in the playoffs. And one day, I hope he will.

 

[CHwest]

I don't know where this PK is reviled comes from. Every time someone points out an error he made certain posters lose their brains and start screaming racism. I like PK, a lot, but I'm not fooled into thinking he's the best thing since sliced bread. He makes mistakes like anyone else, and he's a little to emotional for my taste. So what, he's still one of my favorites on the team, mostly because he brings it every game, every shift, how can that go unappreciated?

I will concede that he gets shafted by the coach, but he is certainly not the only one. Eller receives worse treatment in my mind, and the rookies are treated like dirt, most anyway. But that is the idiot behind the bench.

As for the booing in other rinks, well he is a bit of a dirty player, and he complains way to much. Combine that with world class talent and you have a very booable player. Lots of superstars went through it.

When Crosby was always whining he was regularly booed wherever he went, he has settled down somewhat as has the booing.

He's a special talent, but by no means the best player as some seem to think, I'll enjoy him for what he is, a high energy super star that makes me shake my head sometimes.

 

[Lebowski]

Funniest thing about this whole debate surrounding the Kings' 3rd goal is that it that it's not even a defensive mistake. He blew a tire. Something, that, I'll admit, seem to happen a tad too often in Subban's case, but it really isn't a "bad play" on its own. It's not something he can willingly control.

And the best part out of all this is the usual suspects in this thread using it as some sort of proof of anything. I mean, really? Is that what we call confirmation bias? In a game where he dwarfed Drew "best defenseman in the world" in pretty much all regards. Heck, he was the best player on the ice yesterday. But let's focus over him tripping at the blueline.

I don't care. I couldn't care less to see him there. I want him to be a game changer in the playoffs. And one day, I hope he will.

Like he's been for the better part of his career to this date, you mean?

 

[417]

I don't know where this PK is reviled comes from. Every time someone points out an error he made certain posters lose their brains and start screaming racism. I like PK, a lot, but I'm not fooled into thinking he's the best thing since sliced bread. He makes mistakes like anyone else, and he's a little to emotional for my taste. So what, he's still one of my favorites on the team, mostly because he brings it every game, every shift, how can that go unappreciated?

I will concede that he gets shafted by the coach, but he is certainly not the only one. Eller receives worse treatment in my mind, and the rookies are treated like dirt, most anyway. But that is the idiot behind the bench.

As for the booing in other rinks, well he is a bit of a dirty player, and he complains way to much. Combine that with world class talent and you have a very booable player. Lots of superstars went through it.

When Crosby was always whining he was regularly booed wherever he went, he has settled down somewhat as has the booing.

He's a special talent, but by no means the best player as some seem to think, I'll enjoy him for what he is, a high energy super star that makes me shake my head sometimes.

Show me where this happened?

 

[Adriatic]

Actually, that is false. It is not "too often" it is not "often" at all. As for your assertion that he is so much "riskier" than Doughty,Keith, Weber, Vlasic, etc... please read the following before posting that crap again:

http://canucksarmy.com/2014/2/17/the-reports-of-p-k-subban-s-demise-have-been-greatly-exaggerated

Here is a key conclusion that the stats support:
THE CONCLUSION

First of all, there are no bad players on Team Canada. Every single one of these players has elite strengths, and I could only really see an argument that Jay Bouwmeester doesn't belong on the team. That being said, the evidence points to P.K. Subban being Canada's best offensive weapon from the blueline, and probably the second best defender behind Alex Pietrangelo too.

The argument that he's "risky" or untrustworthy is fueled mainly by biases and misconceptions about what "good defense" is. When Subban is on the ice, he's more likely to get a chance to score the next goal than he is to give it up, which is basically all that matters in this discussion.

At the end of the day, the drop off in defensive ability from Subban to Keith is marginal in small samples, as is the drop-off in offensive ability between Subban and Bouwmeester. We're talking like maybe one shot per game. This adds up over a long season, but keeping Subban out of the lineup isn't going to make-or-break Canada's chances to win the gold medal.

With that in mind, it's still reasonable to say that scratching Subban is poor decision making, as you're incurring the opportunity cost of not having a super-elite blueliner in your lineup, instead replacing him with a good-to-very-good one. And in doing that, Mike Babcock and Lindy Ruff are incurring more risk of losing a tight game than P.K. Subban has ever carried.

Unfortunately you can't and shouldn't build a whole roster completely based on statistical analysis. There are other parameters that coaches use to see how a player will fit within a team and how he should be used. Statistical analysis also shows Joe Thornton is better than most of the forwards that were named to the team, are we supposed to bench Toews now for Thornthon?

 

[lou4gehrig]

Same reason Cam Newton is reviled for doing nothing wrong off the field but being flamboyant on it and somebody like Gronkowski getting barely reviled with everybody saying "Gronk is being Gronk".

We all know the reason why as other has said. The media still has a lot of old-timers in it. I think the way PK handles himself is perfect.

To me if you compare overall play + attitude + grit / character this season I'd evaluate the following:

MaxPac - play (average), attitude (average), grit / character (poor)
Markov - play (average), attitude (poor), grit / character (poor)
Plek - play (average), attitude (average), grit / character (poor)
PK - play (great), attitude (above average), grit / character (great)

This is all that matters in my book.

 

[Blackshad]

I listen to radio all the time and i can't beleive how the "journalists" are ripping him appart.

He is the reason why mostgoes to the Bell center. He is having a very good year and people try to put the blame on him because of the bad season of the team... I just don't get it.

 

[AlphaCentauri]

Some thoughts (opinions):

- He is an Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD). So a lot of energy...

- He have an exceptional physical condition (like Guy Lafleur...)

- He have a #1 Dad helping him to become a very good person (high values, to give to others...), to control his ADHD and a valuable competitive athlete.

- He develop a very good work ethic...

- He like to be in the spotlight and to be he must perform (he's an athlete)

...

 

[Frank Drebin]

So basically he's immune to criticism for the entirety of his career, because you're really not criticizing his game. Its "something else"

 

[Miller Time]

So basically he's immune to criticism for the entirety of his career, because you're really not criticizing his game. Its "something else"

nothing wrong with criticizing his game...

but unlike players who play the white way, criticism of PK's mistakes consistently are accompanied with much broader labels and narrative validations that are absolutely idiotic and unsubstantiated by said mistakes.


that's the issue.

 

[Whitesnake]

Like he's been for the better part of his career to this date, you mean?

Well he is clearly amongst our best players. But I'm mostly talking about him, Price and a few more bringing us HIGHER than just Eastern Conference. 'Cause that's mostly what we're aiming for right?
I mean, we keep laughing at Boston and we love to say that it surely was "the worst team to have ever won the Cup" and that they only did that because of Bergevin and Thomas....well we are then surely able to do it with Subban and Price no?

No matter how fair or unfair it is, NOBODY will be EVER known as a playoff performer if at one point in their career, they won't win a cup with a couple more of Finals along the way. Yes, I understand it's a team's concept, but you need your top players to be top. And beat the top players of the opponents. Still believe that Price and Subban can be better. And bring us to the promised land DESPITE having been good so far. They would need the rest of the team.....but if Boston did it....

 

[Miller Time]

Unfortunately you can't and shouldn't build a whole roster completely based on statistical analysis. There are other parameters that coaches use to see how a player will fit within a team and how he should be used. Statistical analysis also shows Joe Thornton is better than most of the forwards that were named to the team, are we supposed to bench Toews now for Thornthon?

exactly right...

and given the combination of performance/statistical evidence AND the well documented reality that PK was a model teammate whose attitude and contribution to the broader Team Canada chemistry in Sochi (despite dealing with the frustration of being passed over for clearly weaker teammates) was appreciated by teammates and coaching staff alike, as in everyone one of his stints with Team Canada, should have easily cemented his spot on the team as one of the top-2 Dmen, let alone top 4.

unless some other factor is at play, and contributing to the decision... hmmm, i wonder what possibly that could be...

 

[FerrisRox]

It's more complicated I think.

First of all, I don't think he's "reviled" here at all.

Maybe by other fanbases, but within this fanbase, it's just a small handful of people.

As for the reason, no, sadly, it's not more complicated that. That's the entire issue, and it's sad as hell. I feel sorry for those people, I really do.

 

[SnapVirus]

Exchange Doughty and Subban.

Doughty will suck much more here and Subban will produce much more on the Kings. Same for Keith, Weber and compagnie.

Subban is arguably a top3 dmen in the NHL. Some fans are just ******. And most of those are watching Canadiens teams because its trending.

In the USA people who watched hockey are much more hardcore fans. Because its not popular. In Canadian cities, hockey is too much popular. Even people who doesnt give a damn, watches it too be like the rest or to have something to talk about.

Those dont understand ****.

 

[Lebowski]

Well he is clearly amongst our best players. But I'm mostly talking about him, Price and a few more bringing us HIGHER than just Eastern Conference. 'Cause that's mostly what we're aiming for right?
I mean, we keep laughing at Boston and we love to say that it surely was "the worst team to have ever won the Cup" and that they only did that because of Bergevin and Thomas....well we are then surely able to do it with Subban and Price no?

No matter how fair or unfair it is, NOBODY will be EVER known as a playoff performer if at one point in their career, they won't win a cup with a couple more of Finals along the way. Yes, I understand it's a team's concept, but you need your top players to be top. And beat the top players of the opponents. Still believe that Price and Subban can be better. And bring us to the promised land DESPITE having been good so far. They would need the rest of the team.....but if Boston did it....

I see what you mean, but as you sated yourself, it' a team concept. There's 19 different players on the ice on any given night, and you can't put your playoff hopes on the shoulder of only one or two guys. You need a good team to win a cup, simple as that.

 

[417]

nothing wrong with criticizing his game...

but unlike players who play the white way, criticism of PK's mistakes consistently are accompanied with much broader labels and narrative validations that are absolutely idiotic and unsubstantiated by said mistakes.


that's the issue.

Someone's got it...well said

 

[loudi94]

So basically he's immune to criticism for the entirety of his career, because you're really not criticizing his game. Its "something else"

You can criticize his game, but it is naive to think that "something else" doesn't exist.

 

[E82]

I don't know where this PK is reviled comes from. Every time someone points out an error he made certain posters lose their brains and start screaming racism. I like PK, a lot, but I'm not fooled into thinking he's the best thing since sliced bread. He makes mistakes like anyone else, and he's a little to emotional for my taste. So what, he's still one of my favorites on the team, mostly because he brings it every game, every shift, how can that go unappreciated?

I will concede that he gets shafted by the coach, but he is certainly not the only one. Eller receives worse treatment in my mind, and the rookies are treated like dirt, most anyway. But that is the idiot behind the bench.

As for the booing in other rinks, well he is a bit of a dirty player, and he complains way to much. Combine that with world class talent and you have a very booable player. Lots of superstars went through it.

When Crosby was always whining he was regularly booed wherever he went, he has settled down somewhat as has the booing.

He's a special talent, but by no means the best player as some seem to think, I'll enjoy him for what he is, a high energy super star that makes me shake my head sometimes.

Actually the reason why he is reviled is when posters on here pretend like he is the ONLY player to make mistakes. Just read this board. There have been a few videos showing Doughty costing his team important goals and I am yet to see posters even acknowledge it. So are you saying there isn't a Double standard with PK? From the GM to the Coach? So when his character gets assassinated by the media its because we are exaggerating? Again, folks on here going out their way to talk about his charities being for tax evasion or that he was trying to win captaincy. I just want someone to explain to me why there is a DOUBLE standard with him that's all.