Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap: Time is Relevant and Empty Arenas are Wormholes

[mpp9]

So like, if this season resumes, how bout dat top 6, eh?

Guentzel, Zucker and Rust flanking 87 and 71 is nuts. That's the best we've ever had in this era IMO.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Except if the expansion draft remains in 2021 then anyone we sign to a one year deal won’t be available in that draft to expose...we have CDS to expose but one of the two won’t be taken in that draft. We would have to re-sign one and let the other walk but we can kick that decision to another year. The disadvantage is that we couldn’t trade one of these guys and hopefully get something of good value back (probably only if it’s Murray)

Which is why I said 1-2 years. Leaning more on 2.

 

[Rakell67]

So like, if this season resumes, how bout dat top 6, eh?

Guentzel, Zucker and Rust flanking 87 and 71 is nuts. That's the best we've ever had in this era IMO.

Not to mention you could go with a platoon of Hornqvist/Sheary on Crosby’s RW depending on the opponent/who’s hot.

Zucker Crosby Hornqvist/Sheary
Guentzel Malkin Rust
Marleau McCann Sheary/Hornqvist
Tanev Blueger Aston-Reese

(Bjugstad, Simon, Rodrigues, Lafferty)

That is SICK!

 

[Ugene Magic]

So like, if this season resumes, how bout dat top 6, eh?

Guentzel, Zucker and Rust flanking 87 and 71 is nuts. That's the best we've ever had in this era IMO.

Guentzel, Kessel and Rust is probably the best we'll had ever saw this era. Giving way too much credit to Zucker already and he's only played 15 games. I doubt he'll be the difference in a cup run let alone 2.

 

[Gurglesons]

Guentzel, Kessel and Rust is probably the best we'll had ever saw this era. Giving way too much credit to Zucker already and he's only played 15 games. I doubt he'll be the difference in a cup run let alone 2.

Lolz

Guentzel is playing like peak Kessel in Toronto and we’ve added a 30 goal scorer and a 20+ goal scoring Rust to that. It is easily better than Guentzel, Kessel, Rust.

 

[Peat]

Guentzel, Kessel and Rust is probably the best we'll had ever saw this era. Giving way too much credit to Zucker already and he's only played 15 games. I doubt he'll be the difference in a cup run let alone 2.

I think the credit there is really going to Rust. He went from maybe the worst of those players to maybe the best. If he can maintain his level, if he can stay a star, our top 6 is gonna be scary when fit and firing.

 

[Rakell67]

Guentzel, Kessel and Rust is probably the best we'll had ever saw this era. Giving way too much credit to Zucker already and he's only played 15 games. I doubt he'll be the difference in a cup run let alone 2.

Guentzel wasn’t on the team in 2016 so that trio only has one Cup.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The Guentzel, Rust and Zucker group is definitely better than how good Guentzel, Kessel and Rust were at any point. Rust was a 40 point player in every year Guentzel and Kessel were both here, Guentzel varied between a 50 point guy and a PPG player and Kessel's best with Pittsburgh corresponded with Guentzel's worst. With Guentzel, Rust and Zucker now, you have an 80 point player and 2 50-60 point players, all with a strong all-around game. If you look at the 3 years that all 3 of Guentzel, Kessel and Rust were in Pittsburgh, you had:

2016-2017: a 40 point Rust, a decent all around 70 point Kessel and a 65 point Guentzel
2017-2018: a 40 point Rust, a decent all around 90 point Kessel and a 50 point Guentzel
2018-2019: a 40 point Rust, a horrendous all around 80 point Kessel and a 75 point Guentzel

The best of that group was probably the 2017 group, and I'd take an 80 point Guentzel and a 50-60 point Rust and Zucker over the 2017 group.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Lolz

Guentzel is playing like peak Kessel in Toronto and we’ve added a 30 goal scorer and a 20+ goal scoring Rust to that. It is easily better than Guentzel, Kessel, Rust.

Guentzel has been elite from the getgo bringing that to 2 elite wingers.

I think the credit there is really going to Rust. He went from maybe the worst of those players to maybe the best. If he can maintain his level, if he can stay a star, our top 6 is gonna be scary when fit and firing.

That is certainly possible, but until they do there isn't a claim to be the best of an era when they clearly haven't done it yet.

Guentzel wasn’t on the team in 2016 so that trio only has one Cup.

One more than this group, and Rust/Kessel was part of both with others. None of them can anchor a line on their own save, Kessel. There is 2 more seasons they played on the same team after with both at elite levels of play. Guentzel was shown to be elite from the time he came in and had a sophomore slump in the reg. season but not the playoffs.

The Guentzel, Rust and Zucker group is definitely better than how good Guentzel, Kessel and Rust were at any point. Rust was a 40 point player in every year Guentzel and Kessel were both here, Guentzel varied between a 50 point guy and a PPG player and Kessel's best with Pittsburgh corresponded with Guentzel's worst. With Guentzel, Rust and Zucker now, you have an 80 point player and 2 50-60 point players, all with a strong all-around game. If you look at the 3 years that all 3 of Guentzel, Kessel and Rust were in Pittsburgh, you had:

2016-2017: a 40 point Rust, a decent all around 70 point Kessel and a 65 point Guentzel
2017-2018: a 40 point Rust, a decent all around 90 point Kessel and a 50 point Guentzel
2018-2019: a 40 point Rust, a horrendous all around 80 point Kessel and a 75 point Guentzel

The best of that group was probably the 2017 group, and I'd take an 80 point Guentzel and a 50-60 point Rust and Zucker over the 2017 group.

The 2016/17 group

Kessel - reg. season 70 points/playoffs 23 points
Guentzel - reg. season 33 points in 40 games played(64 point pace)/ playoffs 21 points
Rust - reg. season 28 points in 57 games (40 point pace)/ playoffs 9 points

Do I have to show Zucker's and his horrible playoff numbers?

Why not...
Zucker - reg. season 47 points in 79 games played(49 point pace)/ playoffs 1 point

His best year...2017/18

Zucker - reg. season 64 points/ playoffs 0
Kessel - reg. season 92 points/ playoffs 9
Guentzel - reg. season 48 points/playoffs 21
Rust - reg. season 38 points in 69 games played(45 point pace)/playoffs 3

Anyways... Someone is a lot more proven and has done way more with or without being a Penguin.

To say you would take a 50/50 tandem with Jake over having what came to be 80/76/40 is ludicris. It's 2 elite wingers, and only one is able to anchor his own line and drive the play.

Did nothing this season show you anything?

Take away Geno or Sid and things get bad. Now remove Jake and it gets really bad. With Kessel that wasn't as much an issue.

Quality does in fact matter, and now they have one elite winger and none that can drive their own line past Geno or Sid. Not to mention how he's getting 50+ points not seeing top power play time past Sid, Geno, Jake/Phil, Patric and Letang. Plus Rust's emergence and his RHS.

I think people are overstating the impact what a 40/50 point Zucker will be here with a healthy team. He's not exactly that great of a LW wall guy on the PP. He scores goals from there, but he's (left shot) more of a Sykora floater/on the rush, in and out of the slot to the net/more dangerous from that area, guy. He's gonna have to be a more even strength guy considering a healthy team. He'll get PP time, but it won't be like he got before.

It's silly to just manufacture totals thinking he's getting top minutes all the time. 5 on 5 ? yes.

It's like when it was Phil/Jake on the PP where Jake saw less time. That's going to be Jake keeping Zucker/Rust off. And Jason is no Jake 5 on 5.

Now, what line does he play on?

Do you go...Zucker, Crosby, Sheary? Or do you go Zucker, Malkin, Rust?
Healthy team it will probably be.. Guentzel, Crosby, Sheary/Zucker, Malkin, Rust

It's easy to just throw numbers out there and say bestest everrr!

Prove it. Ah.. you can't. It's more of a personal preference. It's not what they in fact did. Yet.

15 games... Not even considering Jake isn't even around.

 

[Empoleon8771]

How do Zucker's bad playoff numbers from 3-6 years ago on a different team have ANY relevance for how good Guentzel, Zucker and Rust are right now?

I'm not even going to bother responding because it's a lot of word vomit with a sense of arrogance that I have little patience for. In Pittsburgh, Zucker's going to be a 50-60 point player. Add that on top of Rust, who should be producing similar totals, and Guentzel, who should be a near PPG player, and that group is better than what the Penguins had in the past. 2 strong 2-way wingers who produce 50-60 points and an elite 80 point winger is better than the best 3 wingers the Penguins have had at any point in their recent history.

 

[Gurglesons]

Guentzel has been elite from the getgo bringing that to 2 elite wingers.



That is certainly possible, but until they do there isn't a claim to be the best of an era when they clearly haven't done it yet.





One more than this group, and Rust/Kessel was part of both with others. None of them can anchor a line on their own save, Kessel. There is 2 more seasons they played on the same team after with both at elite levels of play. Guentzel was shown to be elite from the time he came in and had a sophomore slump in the reg. season but not the playoffs.



The 2016/17 group

Kessel - reg. season 70 points/playoffs 23 points
Guentzel - reg. season 33 points in 40 games played(64 point pace)/ playoffs 21 points
Rust - reg. season 28 points in 57 games (40 point pace)/ playoffs 9 points

Do I have to show Zucker's and his horrible playoff numbers?

Why not...
Zucker - reg. season 47 points in 79 games played(49 point pace)/ playoffs 1 point

His best year...2017/18

Zucker - reg. season 64 points/ playoffs 0
Kessel - reg. season 92 points/ playoffs 9
Guentzel - reg. season 48 points/playoffs 21
Rust - reg. season 38 points in 69 games played(45 point pace)/playoffs 3

Anyways... Someone is a lot more proven and has done way more with or without being a Penguin.

To say you would take a 50/50 tandem with Jake over having what came to be 80/76/40 is ludicris. It's 2 elite wingers, and only one is able to anchor his own line and drive the play.

Did nothing this season show you anything?

Take away Geno or Sid and things get bad. Now remove Jake and it gets really bad. With Kessel that wasn't as much an issue.

Quality does in fact matter, and now they have one elite winger and none that can drive their own line past Geno or Sid. Not to mention how he's getting 50+ points not seeing top power play time past Sid, Geno, Jake/Phil, Patric and Letang. Plus Rust's emergence and his RHS.

I think people are overstating the impact what a 40/50 point Zucker will be here with a healthy team. He's not exactly that great of a LW wall guy on the PP. He scores goals from there, but he's (left shot) more of a Sykora floater/on the rush, in and out of the slot to the net/more dangerous from that area, guy. He's gonna have to be a more even strength guy considering a healthy team. He'll get PP time, but it won't be like he got before.

It's silly to just manufacture totals thinking he's getting top minutes all the time. 5 on 5 ? yes.

It's like when it was Phil/Jake on the PP where Jake saw less time. That's going to be Jake keeping Zucker/Rust off. And Jason is no Jake 5 on 5.

Now, what line does he play on?

Do you go...Zucker, Crosby, Sheary? Or do you go Zucker, Malkin, Rust?
Healthy team it will probably be.. Guentzel, Crosby, Sheary/Zucker, Malkin, Rust

It's easy to just throw numbers out there and say bestest everrr!

Prove it. Ah.. you can't. It's more of a personal preference. It's not what they in fact did. Yet.

15 games... Not even considering Jake isn't even around.

That’s a whole lotta words to say nothing.

Guentzel - Crosby - Sheary / Rust
Hagelin / Wilson - Malkin - Kessel

Vs.

Zucker - Crosby - Sheary
Guentzel - Malkin - Rust

I’ll take the bottom one every day of the week if the context is where they are at now.

 

[ziggyjoe212]

I gotta admit the Pens are stacked on paper. One of the best top 6's. One of the best F depths. Tang and Dumo are one of the best duo's in the league. 2 solid young goalies to boot.

I hope they hold playoffs this year because it would be fun to watch this team play a couple rounds.

 

[Gurglesons]

I gotta admit the Pens are stacked on paper. One of the best top 6's. One of the best F depths. Tang and Dumo are one of the best duo's in the league. 2 solid young goalies to boot.

I hope they hold playoffs this year because it would be fun to watch this team play a couple rounds.

I think you could make an argument this is the deepest squad since 2013 and the best part is if this team goes to the playoffs. They’ll get a mini camp to have the new guys and injured guys time to assimilate.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Best of this era...

2 elite wingers...

I'll take the group that actually has already brought forth fruit. Not Fantasyland... and fictitious claims built on paper/the fact this era is closing without them doing anything together as a team. Nothing....

The best is behind us for reasons Sid and Geno are slowing down and not one of these wingers can take up the slack on their own line. This isn't a debate. It's true.

It's okay, it's the natural process of getting old and getting injured more. Though, Geno hasn't been healthy but once in years... A meaningless year where they threw away the real chance at competing, sabotaging the defense and building in toughness. They had a better chance that year if they kept the team together than this one with holes still throughout the team.

The best this era had, had 2 elite wingers and a much better team surrounding it. This one will have two good top lines and and lesser, much lesser below it. It still has flaws on D. Goaltending they can do well with.

We haven't even brought up Jake is getting off of major shoulder surgery yet. How do you know he's going to be anywhere near normal? He hasn't skated let alone practice/play hockey. It took Talbot a year to get over his and back to normal. Maatta...

You guys just are just using paper tigers with nothing real to back it up. Preferences on paper.

The lines are not even settled in/worked out. How can they...?

Magic beans and...

 

[WayneSid9987]

I gotta admit the Pens are stacked on paper. One of the best top 6's. One of the best F depths. Tang and Dumo are one of the best duo's in the league. 2 solid young goalies to boot.

I hope they hold playoffs this year because it would be fun to watch this team play a couple rounds.

I'm just curious if Sid looks way better after this break.
Think no matter how you slice it, it's gonna take a full year for him to look 100% post the surgery he had but he's a key element as to if this current team can do any damage.
G with Rust and Jake or Zucker will be great but i'm in wait and see on any Sid line atm. Sid was really struggling at the end before things got shut down. So wait and see for me...

 

[ziggyjoe212]

I'm just curious if Sid looks way better after this break.
Think no matter how you slice it, it's gonna take a full year for him to look 100% post the surgery he had but he's a key element as to if this current team can do any damage.
G with Rust and Jake or Zucker will be great but i'm in wait and see on any Sid line atm. Sid was really struggling at the end before things got shut down. So wait and see for me...

I'm not sure what you're expecting but 80 point Selke candidate Sid is waht we're going to get from now on. If you're expecting the dominant 120 point player, that guy left 10 years ago.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm not sure what you're expecting but 80 point Selke candidate Sid is waht we're going to get from now on. If you're expecting the dominant 120 point player, that guy left 10 years ago.

Crosby was on pace for 94 pts and that was with how bad he looked the last couple weeks before the season ended.

 

[Gurglesons]

Best of this era...

2 elite wingers...

I'll take the group that actually has already brought forth fruit. Not Fantasyland... and fictitious claims built on paper/the fact this era is closing without them doing anything together as a team. Nothing....

The best is behind us for reasons Sid and Geno are slowing down and not one of these wingers can take up the slack on their own line. This isn't a debate. It's true.

It's okay, it's the natural process of getting old and getting injured more. Though, Geno hasn't been healthy but once in years... A meaningless year where they threw away the real chance at competing, sabotaging the defense and building in toughness. They had a better chance that year if they kept the team together than this one with holes still throughout the team.

The best this era had, had 2 elite wingers and a much better team surrounding it. This one will have two good top lines and and lesser, much lesser below it. It still has flaws on D. Goaltending they can do well with.

We haven't even brought up Jake is getting off of major shoulder surgery yet. How do you know he's going to be anywhere near normal? He hasn't skated let alone practice/play hockey. It took Talbot a year to get over his and back to normal. Maatta...

You guys just are just using paper tigers with nothing real to back it up. Preferences on paper.

The lines are not even settled in/worked out. How can they...?

Magic beans and...

Zucker is just as good as what Phil Kessel brought here at ES during his stint.

 

[WayneSid9987]

I'm not sure what you're expecting but 80 point Selke candidate Sid is waht we're going to get from now on. If you're expecting the dominant 120 point player, that guy left 10 years ago.

I'm more talking physically, he didn't look 100%. His 200ft game wasn't that good cuz you could tell he was struggling with his legs/body/groin.
Remember posters here wanting to give Geno the C cuz he was playing so poorly or meh down the last stretch.
Thats the kind of stuff i'm talking about.
He needs to heal+be better.

On the roster i think it's too soft up front when you have Sheary+Simon+Bjugstad in the lineup.
I'd prefer only one of them plays, Sheary or Simon.

Zucker-Sid-Horny
Jake-G-Rust
Marleau-McCann-Sheary/Simon
ZAR-Blueger-Tanev or Tanev-Blueger-ERod

is probably their best F lineup atm.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I'm more talking physically, he didn't look 100%. His 200ft game wasn't that good cuz you could tell he was struggling with his legs/body/groin.
Remember posters here wanting to give Geno the C cuz he was playing so poorly or meh down the last stretch.
Thats the kind of stuff i'm talking about.
He needs to heal+be better.

On the roster i think it's too soft up front when you have Sheary+Simon+Bjugstad in the lineup.
I'd prefer only one of them plays, Sheary or Simon.

Zucker-Sid-Horny
Jake-G-Rust
Marleau-McCann-Sheary/Simon
ZAR-Blueger-Tanev or Tanev-Blueger-ERod

is probably their best F lineup atm.

I assume Sheary or Simon will be on Crosby's line and Hornqvist on the third. With Sheary/Simon, Bjugstad, Marleau, Rodrigues, and ZAR competing for the 3rd and 4th line LW spots. I'm not sure Marleau deserves a spot in this scenario but I think Sullivan would be afraid to scratch someone like that.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I do think it is weird that this board advocates anyone is interchangeable and then gets attached to these borderline NHLers like Riikola, Sprong or even proven utility pieces like Hagelin or Kahun.

I understand the idea, but I dunno. And I was a big Bones advocate so I guess I’m being hypocritical. But mid six wingers and bottom pairing D are the easiest positions to acquire.

Th problem isn't that these guys are irreplaceable, the problem is when the team prioritizes a bad, old, cap inefficiency like JJ over a cheap, young, better player like Riikola.

It's like hey, we can either have this unscratched lotto ticket or a crumpled up old ticket to Gigli. The latter's expired and we know it's awful, but we choose it anyway.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The Penguins should be shooting higher than both Riikola and Johnson for their bottom pair, because Johnson is a known commodity and Riikola has only shown spurts in the NHL to suggest he'd be an effective regular player. Riikola is just another Plotnikov, he's just lasted longer with the Penguins than Plotnikov did.

I read on the main boards that Hadyn Fleury has experience playing the right side. With that being the case, I'd love for the Penguins to go aggressively after him this off-season. I really like Fleury's upside as a middle eating middle pair defenseman, and the fact that he can also play RD also shows he'd have a spot if POJ hit his upside.

 

[Peat]

Th problem isn't that these guys are irreplaceable, the problem is when the team prioritizes a bad, old, cap inefficiency like JJ over a cheap, young, better player like Riikola.

It's like hey, we can either have this unscratched lotto ticket or a crumpled up old ticket to Gigli. The latter's expired and we know it's awful, but we choose it anyway.

Riikola might seem unscratched to us, but the coaches have had more than enough time with him to know what he is. Maybe when he goes we find out they were badly wrong, its bound to happen eventually, but I'm not convinced. I think he's just different... and JJ was prioritised because his difference counterbalanced the team better. In a non-Marino world, Riikola is our 3rd pairing with Gudbranson and JJ is gone, because Riikola fitted the need better. But there was Marino and that was bad news for Riikola. Tbh, I wouldn't be utterly surprised if we moved JJ this summer, got a cheaper RD physical guy, and went with Riikola.

 

[JRS91]

Yohe said theres a good chance Sheary re-signs and he'd be surprised if Schultz stays.
Nothing really but something to start the thread off.

It's definitely possible, it's just you'll have to either rely on Riikola, Ruhwedel or a cheap player in a trade.

Personally, I think they keep Murray, McCann, Sheary and Simon. Trade Bjugstad and Jarry. Then let Schultz walk in free agency. Murray probably makes $6M over the next 3-4 years. McCann most likely makes $3.750M over the next 3-4 years. Sheary and Simon probably both make $2.250M over the next two years. Recall DeSmith and that leaves like $1.2M in cap space.

That's a pretty good group of forwards. The top four defense is pretty decent. Letang, Dumoulin, Pettersson and Marino. The issue is the bottom pairing. They're going to have to hope they can get a savvy signing like Tampa Bay did with Shattenkirk, hope you can strike gold twice and get another guy like Marino, or they could try and shoot for a top prospect in a trade. Personally, I think Carolina would be a good trade partner if the Penguins do move Jarry, but I think even with Bjugstad included they aren't going to move a guy like Jake Bean for Jarry and Bjugstad unless the Penguins include more, which isn't really worth it. Carolina has a plethora of good defensemen, but they don't have the cap space to take on any of those contracts. So they'll probably re-sign Riikola and hope he and Ruhwedel can hold the fort.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Zucker is just as good as what Phil Kessel brought here at ES during his stint.

Yes. But he'll never be treated like Kessel and he's not as gifted as him, Either. No fault of his own. He is what he is. Still glad to have him. I don't think they are the best this team has seen this era. As we all know quality beats out throwing mass lesser quality at it at a time where your top C quality is at its decline.

Like... Sid going down and Guentzel gets put on Malkin and Rust's line and explodes and goes on a tear. Now this is all kind of screwed up since Rust missed the beginning part of the season himself. From the time Sid went down and Guentzel went down (20 games) Rust amassed 26 points 12 goals and 14 assists. Bringing his totals with his time before Guentzel joining their line at 17 goals and 16 assists and 33 points in 25 games. Since that point of Guentzel going down he dropped considerably the next 30 games where he got 10+13 for 23 points in 30 games. Rust also starts seeing time on the top PP.

Quality/quality minutes does matter.

That quality will get reduced when splitting up and spreading it out when healthy.

60/80 Guentzel|Crosby| 30/50 Sheary
30/50 Rust|Malkin|60/90 Kessel

to

60/80 Guentzel|Crosby| 30/50 Sheary
40/60 Zucker|Malkin|30/50 Rust

In reality...

40/60 Zucker|Crosby|30/50 Sheary
30/40 Marleau|Malkin|30/50 Rust

Clearly shows what was best this era. Preferences don't mean squat if they don't even have a base yet and this era is closed to get one. Unless you are going to manufacture/write up that success and declare it a win. Which is what is happening.

There is real reasons to say it's not until it is, or has proven to be, the best.