Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread: Where Gods are born & Old Ones Go To Valhalla..

[Darren McCord]

Damn just saw Derek Ryan was placed on waivers. Wish we had the cap to pick he up. Would be awesome for the third line center. Would be like a free trade deadline acquisition.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Of the guys on waived today... JR should take a look at Derek Ryan or Michael Frolik for the 4th line, and (maybe) Adam Clendening for depth.

I wanted JR to trade Hornqvist for Ryan in the off-season so I would support that.

But the problem is the Penguins don't have the cap space to claim Ryan.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I feel like this is a situation where you can't just look at the numbers, though. Like look at Matheson and Pettersson, I'm too lazy to look up the exact numbers but I'm pretty sure those two produced around the same amount last year. But even with that, Matheson is a much more dangerous offensive player. I don't think it's as simple as just looking at points, it's looking at a skillset.

Pettersson gets points because he's a good puck mover that plays on a great offensive team. I think Marino falls more in that category than the category of a "dangerous offensive defenseman".

It's great that Matheson is a gifted skater - he has something to work with. But that doesn't make him any more dangerous offensively than players with comparable production.

Let's wait until Matheson cracks 30 points before we even start mentioning him and "dangerous offensively" in the same breath.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's great that Matheson is a gifted skater - he has something to work with. But that doesn't make him any more dangerous offensively than players with comparable production.

Let's wait until Matheson cracks 30 points before we even start mentioning him and "dangerous offensively" in the same breath.

This doesn't have to do with Matheson specifically, this has to do with there being more to "offensive ability" for defensemen than just points.

Player A getting more points than player B doesn't mean player A is on par or better offensively than player B, especially when it comes to defensemen.

 

[Gurglesons]

The Daley that was part of our Cup teams had 17 giveaways in 54 games in '15-'16 (20:27 TOI/G), and 18 giveaways in 56 games in '16-'17 (20:23 TOI/G).

Matheson had 54 giveaways in 59 games last year (18:02 TOI/G).

Matheson had less icetime/responsibility than Daley and managed to more than triple his giveaways. He sure as f*** does need to clean up his game to be comparable to the Daley we had in the Cup runs.

Weren't you someone that said Jeff Petry was a more "consistent" version of Letang?

You realize he had more giveaways than Matheson in the last two years right?

Giveaways are a poor stat and when you see three of the top four Florida defenseman in the top five for giveaways in the league over the last two years it seems pretty obvious that this was a systematic issue in Florida.

Prior to his time in PIT, Daley was around a career average of GF% and xGF% of 48. He had some outlier years in terms of actual GF% in the 52-53% realm which is why I said he was better than Matheson in his prime. Matheson is around that realm as well.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

It's not really even a discussion as to whether a guy with Matheson's skillset and physical ability has the potential to be a very good offensive defenseman. It's entirely up to how he gels with his new team/system, and whether he reaches his ceiling under this coaching staff.

But he's got all of the tools to be an exceptional talent with regard to producing offense from the blueline--something we've desperately lacked beyond Letang for years now. He's still a big question mark, and I don't even know if you can truly evaluate him after a shortened/condensed season, but the potential is undoubtedly there.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Weren't you someone that said Jeff Petry was a more "consistent" version of Letang?

You realize he had more giveaways than Matheson in the last two years right?

Could there be a less relevant comparable?

Petry averaged over 23 minutes a night, and still averaged fewer giveaways per game than Matheson.

Fewer per game than Letang too, for that matter.

Giveaways are a poor stat and when you see three of the top four Florida defenseman in the top five for giveaways in the league over the last two years it seems pretty obvious that this was a systematic issue in Florida.

Prior to his time in PIT, Daley was around a career average of GF% and xGF% of 48. He had some outlier years in terms of actual GF% in the 52-53% realm which is why I said he was better than Matheson in his prime. Matheson is around that realm as well.

I don't think that's obvious at all. Florida simply had a lot of defensemen that had trouble managing the puck. Matheson scouting reports certainly don't absolve him of these issues.

If Matheson wants to be compared to Daley, he needs to make a lot smarter decisions with the puck. As it stands, he's giving it to the other team 3 times as often as Daley did here. That's more than a little significant.

 

[chethejet]

I was sure that Morrow, Pouliot and Harrington would be the D men for the next 10 years. Shero certainly thought so. But it has been a long time they had any real threat from the blue line for a LH D man. Hell Olecsiak (sp) was the last guy who could fire the puck. So if Matheson gives the Pens that element of blue line blow it by the goalie shot, that is big to me. Unless I am wrong, Malkin hasn't had that shot for awhile so Matheson at least gives the Pens that capability.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Of the guys on waived today... JR should take a look at Derek Ryan or Michael Frolik for the 4th line, and (maybe) Adam Clendening for depth.

Provided they stay there.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

This doesn't have to do with Matheson specifically, this has to do with there being more to "offensive ability" for defensemen than just points.

Player A getting more points than player B doesn't mean player A is on par or better offensively than player B, especially when it comes to defensemen.

So what metric are you using to determine that Matheson is better offensively?

 

[Empoleon8771]

So what metric are you using to determine that Matheson is better offensively?

With my eyes? I can see Pettersson gets points from being a good puck mover on a great offensive team. I can also use my eyes to see that Matheson has clearly superior offensive tools.

 

[Gurglesons]

Could there be a less relevant comparable?

Petry averaged over 23 minutes a night, and still averaged fewer giveaways per game than Matheson.

Fewer per game than Letang too, for that matter.

Petry's Giveaway p/60 was nearly identical to Matheson this year. Matheson played minutes as a forward this year which obviously is going to lend itself to this.

Petry 3.25 p/60 | Matheson 3.27 p/60

The year prior.

Petry 4.38 p/60 | Matheson 5.03 p/60

And one is playing for Claude Julien. The other has had three coaches in his career.

I don't think that's obvious at all. Florida simply had a lot of defensemen that had trouble managing the puck. Matheson scouting reports certainly don't absolve him of these issues.

If Matheson wants to be compared to Daley, he needs to make a lot smarter decisions with the puck. As it stands, he's giving it to the other team 3 times as often as Daley did here. That's more than a little significant.

Giveaways are a shitty stat and about as relevant as hits when it comes to stats. I've never heard the issues of Ekblad and Yandle managing the puck.

For example Hjalmarsson who is widely regarded as one of the best defensive defensemen in the league was an absolute sieve when it came to giveaways throughout his career. He had 79 giveaways in his prime in 13-14 and had 38 during the Blackhawk's cup run in 2015.

Florida literally had no system. Every single one of their defenseman gaveaway the puck because they had no forward support. I watched a decent amount of Florida over the years because I was big on Trochek / Ekblad and it was like watching a bomb going off every time they got the puck.

I'm not arguing that Matheson is an adventure in the d zone. Just the fact that giveaways are a really bad way to quantize that.

 

[The Old Master]

It's not really even a discussion as to whether a guy with Matheson's skillset and physical ability has the potential to be a very good offensive defenseman. It's entirely up to how he gels with his new team/system, and whether he reaches his ceiling under this coaching staff.

But he's got all of the tools to be an exceptional talent with regard to producing offense from the blueline--something we've desperately lacked beyond Letang for years now. He's still a big question mark, and I don't even know if you can truly evaluate him after a shortened/condensed season, but the potential is undoubtedly there.

having a goalie that can play the puck like we have should help a lot. so i'm having good thoughts.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

With my eyes? I can see Pettersson gets points from being a good puck mover on a great offensive team. I can also use my eyes to see that Matheson has clearly superior offensive tools.

Better tools don't necessarily make for a better offensive player. That's why they have the saying "tools but no toolbox".

This hardly seems like something I should have to say.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Petry's Giveaway p/60 was nearly identical to Matheson this year. Matheson played minutes as a forward this year which obviously is going to lend itself to this.

Petry 3.25 p/60 | Matheson 3.27 p/60

The year prior.

Petry 4.38 p/60 | Matheson 5.03 p/60

And one is playing for Claude Julien. The other has had three coaches in his career.

And as I said, Petry had a lot different role with more minutes. It's the first rule when comparing numbers.

You understand this, but are conveniently ignoring it for the sake of this discussion.

Giveaways are a shitty stat and about as relevant as hits when it comes to stats.

Not really.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think we've got the guys to form a perfectly competent 3rd and 4th line in-house. I question whether or not Kap works as a top-6 guy. As far as potential additions go, the only real weakness at forward is 1RW, imo. Not that I think Kap is a bad player, quite the opposite, I just don't think he'll work with Sid--a guy who is notorious for being difficult to gel with because he's so unwilling to adjust his game to new linemates, which, I'm not sure I can really even blame him given he's put together a top-5 career all time, imo.

But if Kap doesn't work with Sid, which I'm pretty much assuming will happen, I think he could work with Geno. That leaves Rust to either Sid's line, which I haven't been a fan of in the past, or Rust to the 3rd line. If you want to keep the Geno-Rust combo, which I can't see why anyone wouldn't, Kap's your 3RW--which again, is where I think he's best suited to succeed.

Jake/Zucker-Sid-RW
Jake/Zucker-Geno-Rust
McCann-TB-Kapanen
Some combination of Jankowski, Sceviour, Tanev, Lafferty, and O'Connor.

That's a great 3rd line. That's a stellar 2nd line. And if the addition is right, a stellar 1st line. I just don't know who we'd target, or how we'd afford them, so we'd better hope Kapanen defies the odds and excels alongside Sid. Outside of that 1RW spot, I don't see the need to bring in any forwards unless a great deal for a sure-fire 3C upgrade falls into our lap.

-edit- I'd also give TB the season at 3C to see what we have in the guy. It's time to decide whether he's got the real potential to move up and solve the 3C issue, or he's "just" going to end up a very good 4C. This season should be the deciding season for that before we continue to hemorrhage assets to keep trying to fix that role.

 

[BHD]

Petry's Giveaway p/60 was nearly identical to Matheson this year. Matheson played minutes as a forward this year which obviously is going to lend itself to this.

Petry 3.25 p/60 | Matheson 3.27 p/60

The year prior.

Petry 4.38 p/60 | Matheson 5.03 p/60

And one is playing for Claude Julien. The other has had three coaches in his career.



Giveaways are a shitty stat and about as relevant as hits when it comes to stats. I've never heard the issues of Ekblad and Yandle managing the puck.

For example Hjalmarsson who is widely regarded as one of the best defensive defensemen in the league was an absolute sieve when it came to giveaways throughout his career. He had 79 giveaways in his prime in 13-14 and had 38 during the Blackhawk's cup run in 2015.

Florida literally had no system. Every single one of their defenseman giveaway the puck because they had no forward support. I watched a decent amount of Florida over the years because I was big on Trochek / Ekblad and it was like watching a bomb going off every time they got the puck.

I was just about to mention that. During Boughner's two seasons, Yandle (239), Matheson (227), and Ekblad (221) were all top 5 in giveaways from players at their position.

 

[Gurglesons]

And as I said, Petry had a lot different role with more minutes. It's the first rule when comparing numbers.

You understand this, but are conveniently ignoring it for the sake of this discussion.

Per/60 numbers account for this time disparity and their quality of competition over the past three years is not that far apart. Also in 18-19 Matheson and Petry played nearly the same amount of ice time when factored out for the GP difference.

But as I said, this isn't to say Petry is a better defenseman than Matheson. Just the fact giveaways is an awful statistic that is a complete judgement call from the in house stat counters and largely is always going to crucify players that have the puck.

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

The goal for and goal against along with GF% and xGA and xGF paint a better picture of where Petry is a much better player than Matheson at 5v5.

Not really.

Yes, it is.

Giveaways vs. Turnovers: how to find value in an unreliable stat - Sportsnet.ca

"So-called “real time” stats like giveaways, hits, and blocked shots have come under fire in recent years due to their unreliable tracking and the fact they often tell you the opposite of what most people think they do. But I think the giveaway stat is the worst of all."

It also shows Petry's real value when you look at it.



Also ^

 

[66-30-33]

I see that f***ing wanker @66-30-33 hasn't seen who's on waivers...

I kind of want Ho-Sang to be claimed by the Pens, people can whine about him being cocky, but that skill, if you can reign him in and get that skill on this team and he figures it out, oh boy...

That kid is talented, he's shown it at the NHL level too, but I guess being cocksure is frowned upon unless you're some wanker that was drafted in the top 5 and not from his background. If you can get a talent like that for free and sort him out, that's the type of shit I'd love to see JR take more chances on given our pitiful pool of call-ups.

Not been paying attention much, playing games a lot and waiting for the season to begin.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Per/60 numbers account for this time disparity and their quality of competition over the past three years is not that far apart. Also in 18-19 Matheson and Petry played nearly the same amount of ice time when factored out for the GP difference.

You're comparing a player averaging top pair minutes (23:22) to a player averaging #4 minutes (20:26)

And Petry's giveaway numbers are still better. They are not the same.

Giveaways are a huge issue for Matheson. They were not for Daley. That's why the former needs to clean up his game considerably to be compared. When Sullivan says :

"If we can do that and we can help him leverage his mobility, just simplifying his game so he doesn’t put him in some difficult positions, I think that’s going to help his game grow to the point where he can be a real impact player for us.”

What do you think that means? How about "stop skating himself into trouble and giving the puck away"?

Yes, it is.

Giveaways vs. Turnovers: how to find value in an unreliable stat - Sportsnet.ca

I'd happily incorporate Matheson's turnover numbers into the discussion if we could find them.

 

[Gurglesons]

You're comparing a player averaging top pair minutes (23:22) to a player averaging #4 minutes (20:26)

And Petry's giveaway numbers are still better. They are not the same.

Giveaways are a huge issue for Matheson. They were not for Daley. That's why the former needs to clean up his game considerably to be compared. When Sullivan says :

"If we can do that and we can help him leverage his mobility, just simplifying his game so he doesn’t put him in some difficult positions, I think that’s going to help his game grow to the point where he can be a real impact player for us.”

What do you think that means? How about "stop skating himself into trouble and giving the puck away"?



I'd happily incorporate Matheson's turnover numbers into the discussion if we could find them.

I don't think Matheson is good with the puck in the d-zone, but I don't think Daley was that great with the puck either in terms of unforced turnovers. My main point here is giveaways are a terrible way to analyze that.

But, my main point is that the Panthers have been awful as a d-unit at puck handling. Let's see how Matheson is in our system before we start making accusations. Matheson has never had a player like Marino on his right side and never had a team that plays like the Penguins have since 15-16 when they are firing on all cylinders.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I don't think Matheson is good with the puck in the d-zone, but I don't think Daley was that great with the puck either in terms of unforced turnovers. My main point here is giveaways are a terrible way to analyze that.

But, my main point is that the Panthers have been awful as a d-unit at puck handling. Let's see how Matheson is in our system before we start making accusations. Matheson has never had a player like Marino on his right side and never had a team that plays like the Penguins have since 15-16 when they are firing on all cylinders.

The burden of proof is on Matheson to show that it was Florida that made him a giveaway machine, not the other way around. As for Daley, I don't recall giveaways ever being a chronic issue for him here, and the numbers suggest the exact opposite.

Until I see some turnover data suggesting otherwise, there's no reason to doubt that the giveaway numbers reflect each player's puck management during those periods, or that Matheson has to "simplify" his game considerably to get on Daley's level. But like I said, I'm open to those if they're available.

 

[Gurglesons]

The burden of proof is on Matheson to show that it was Florida that made him a giveaway machine, not the other way around. As for Daley, I don't recall giveaways ever being a chronic issue for him here, and the numbers suggest the exact opposite.

Until I see some turnover data suggesting otherwise, there's no reason to doubt that the giveaway numbers reflect each player's puck management during those periods, or that Matheson has to "simplify" his game considerably to get on Daley's level. But like I said, I'm open to those if they're available.

k. you do you Soggy.

maybe one day we'll make a move that you like.

 

[K Fleur]

Petry is one of the players I see people on this board say we should traded Letang for fairly often and that always induces an eye roll from me. Jared Spurgeon is another one.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

k. you do you Soggy.

maybe one day we'll make a move that you like.

I liked Marino.