Speculation: Pietrangelo's future (reports: to go to FA)

[Alklha]

Right. Like none of our guys were key contributors on best team in West this year. Or Cup last year. Who would want them?

So who are the players that are easy to move?

 

[bleedblue1223]

Right. Like none of our guys were key contributors on best team in West this year. Or Cup last year. Who would want them?

Bozak, Allen, Steen, Faulk. All the others with significant salary, you could make an argument could hurt us just as much or more.

 

[MissouriMook]

I am continually surprised at the number of people who are down on Army, especially regarding the Faulk contract, and yet feel that Berube has somehow earned some immunity to criticism for bringing us a Cup last year, as if they both didn't have a big hand in it. While you may not like every trade or contract, I think Army's record speaks for itself in that there has been far more good than bad. I would put his track record against the records of all but a handful of GMs in the last 8-10 years.

We know so little about what is going on behind the scenes, and the little we do hear is just the player/agent's side of the story because Army rarely tips his hand by talking about trades or contracts until after things have been settled. There has been so much angst over the Faulk extension that completely disregards the idea that perhaps this was being negotiated as part of the trade, and Army doesn't want to be known around the league as a man who goes back on his word.

There has also been much speculation that the extension was a hedge against losing Petro, but what if it was a hedge against losing Parayko? If there is one thing we know about Army it is that he views every transaction through a filter reflective of the long-term needs of the organization. What if, during the negotiation of the current deal with Parayko, Army had information that led him to believe that Parayko and his agent were going to market when this deal is up regardless of the situation here? Locking up Faulk immediately and then working to lock up Petro would give Army the leverage he needed to start the process early with Parayko and his agent (he has just two years left) and either the agent tips their hand by not engaging in early talks or you confirm you suspicions that the player wants to test free agency, giving you the opportunity to sell high and get max value for a player or ride out the last two years because he is too valuable to the team. Personally, if you have Petro and Faulk locked up on the right side, I feel like Parayko has more long-term value for what he can return (shoring up the left side of the D, adding a scorer, or adding premium futures/removing cap hit) than you will get out of him the next two years if you honestly believe he moves on after the 2021-2022 season.

At the end of the day, the Faulk acquisition and extension may have nothing at all to do with Petro and everything to do with Parayko. You just don't know with Army, which is one of the things that makes him a good GM.

 

[sfvega]

Right. Like none of our guys were key contributors on best team in West this year. Or Cup last year. Who would want them?

It's not quite that simple given league-wide cap space premium, the looming expansion draft, which players we need or who moving would create an entirely different problem. And I think you know it's much more complicated than that.

 

[sfvega]

I am continually surprised at the number of people who are down on Army, especially regarding the Faulk contract, and yet feel that Berube has somehow earned some immunity to criticism for bringing us a Cup last year, as if they both didn't have a big hand in it. While you may not like every trade or contract, I think Army's record speaks for itself in that there has been far more good than bad. I would put his track record against the records of all but a handful of GMs in the last 8-10 years.

We know so little about what is going on behind the scenes, and the little we do hear is just the player/agent's side of the story because Army rarely tips his hand by talking about trades or contracts until after things have been settled. There has been so much angst over the Faulk extension that completely disregards the idea that perhaps this was being negotiated as part of the trade, and Army doesn't want to be known around the league as a man who goes back on his word.

There has also been much speculation that the extension was a hedge against losing Petro, but what if it was a hedge against losing Parayko? If there is one thing we know about Army it is that he views every transaction through a filter reflective of the long-term needs of the organization. What if, during the negotiation of the current deal with Parayko, Army had information that led him to believe that Parayko and his agent were going to market when this deal is up regardless of the situation here? Locking up Faulk immediately and then working to lock up Petro would give Army the leverage he needed to start the process early with Parayko and his agent (he has just two years left) and either the agent tips their hand by not engaging in early talks or you confirm you suspicions that the player wants to test free agency, giving you the opportunity to sell high and get max value for a player or ride out the last two years because he is too valuable to the team. Personally, if you have Petro and Faulk locked up on the right side, I feel like Parayko has more long-term value for what he can return (shoring up the left side of the D, adding a scorer, or adding premium futures/removing cap hit) than you will get out of him the next two years if you honestly believe he moves on after the 2021-2022 season.

At the end of the day, the Faulk acquisition and extension may have nothing at all to do with Petro and everything to do with Parayko. You just don't know with Army, which is one of the things that makes him a good GM.

I'm not at all down on Army, it's just a misstep IMO. If he made the deal in order to give Faulk a huge extension in order to trade Parayko in the middle of our contending window, I may be down on him though.

Defense is our calling card and trading for a defender who is not great at defense in order to deal one of the best defenders in the league for a scorer or futures is pretty questionable. I don't think this team can score with the Colorado/Vegas/Tampas of the league.

 

[Brian39]

If I was Petro, I'd be wondering why I wasn't locked up first though.

It was widely reported that his agent and Army both wanted to put off negotiations until the end of the year. His agent never disputed these reports, which often included musings that Petro didnt want to deal with the distraction of a midseason negotiation.

Army, Meehan and Petro sat down for dinner in October in the agent's city and it was widely reported that an offer was made by the team at this dinner. It's completely reasonable to be hurt or upset by the number offered. It's completely reasonable to digest that number and decide to push further negotiations until after the season ends. When the season ends 10 months later, it is not reasonable to then claim hard feelings about the team being unwilling to further negotiate.

I've been heavily supportive of Petro's stance through all this and I think the landing number and "fair" number is closer to what he's reportedly asking for than what we've reportedly offered. But this rumbling about him feeling spurned by the negotiating process is a negotiating tactic by his agent.

 

[bleedblue1223]

The guy that included Berglund and Sobotka in a deal that got us O'Reilly will always get plenty of slack in working his way out of a hole, even more so after he get a Cup. I'll always say we'll have to see how everything plays out.

 

[BlueDream]

I am continually surprised at the number of people who are down on Army, especially regarding the Faulk contract, and yet feel that Berube has somehow earned some immunity to criticism for bringing us a Cup last year, as if they both didn't have a big hand in it. While you may not like every trade or contract, I think Army's record speaks for itself in that there has been far more good than bad. I would put his track record against the records of all but a handful of GMs in the last 8-10 years.

We know so little about what is going on behind the scenes, and the little we do hear is just the player/agent's side of the story because Army rarely tips his hand by talking about trades or contracts until after things have been settled. There has been so much angst over the Faulk extension that completely disregards the idea that perhaps this was being negotiated as part of the trade, and Army doesn't want to be known around the league as a man who goes back on his word.

There has also been much speculation that the extension was a hedge against losing Petro, but what if it was a hedge against losing Parayko? If there is one thing we know about Army it is that he views every transaction through a filter reflective of the long-term needs of the organization. What if, during the negotiation of the current deal with Parayko, Army had information that led him to believe that Parayko and his agent were going to market when this deal is up regardless of the situation here? Locking up Faulk immediately and then working to lock up Petro would give Army the leverage he needed to start the process early with Parayko and his agent (he has just two years left) and either the agent tips their hand by not engaging in early talks or you confirm you suspicions that the player wants to test free agency, giving you the opportunity to sell high and get max value for a player or ride out the last two years because he is too valuable to the team. Personally, if you have Petro and Faulk locked up on the right side, I feel like Parayko has more long-term value for what he can return (shoring up the left side of the D, adding a scorer, or adding premium futures/removing cap hit) than you will get out of him the next two years if you honestly believe he moves on after the 2021-2022 season.

At the end of the day, the Faulk acquisition and extension may have nothing at all to do with Petro and everything to do with Parayko. You just don't know with Army, which is one of the things that makes him a good GM.

1. Of course Armstrong gets more criticism than Berube, because he’s been here through the bad times and has made some poor moves. Berube hasn’t really done much worth criticism. If you think he has, what is it?

2. We all know the trade facilitated on an extension for Faulk. That doesn’t excuse it at all. Faulk was not needed and you don’t give someone that you don’t need that much a humongous contract just to acquire them. It’s an awful move.

3. The Parayko speculation is such complete and utter nonsense. Sorry but that’s a huge reach to try to defend Armstrong. Parayko’s contract is up in 2022. You are telling me, that in 2019 - three full years in advance - Parayko and his agent are already leaking info that he’s bolting? Especially after the team he’s on just won the Cup?

Sorry, nope. That didn’t happen. There’s no way Parayko already wants out. He seems very happy here and it’s such baseless speculation that there’s no point in giving it traction. Besides, even IF that happened - Armstrong had THREE YEARS to find a replacement for him. That doesn’t excuse him acquiring Faulk immediately and handcuffing the Pietrangelo situation.

 

[BlueKnight]

I'm greatful Army made moves and brought us a cup. I remember reading in The Athletic that Army has a reputation of being difficult to work with. And if the reports are true and Petro is asking for less then Josi money but I'm afraid that Army is playing hardball and his stubbornness is going to cause Petro to walk a year removed from being the first player in Blues history to hoist the cup. It wouldn't look good on Army. Just my thought and opinion.

But we'll see what happens in the next 5 or so weeks.

 

[The Note]

Defense is our calling card and trading for a defender who is not great at defense in order to deal one of the best defenders in the league for a scorer or futures is pretty questionable. I don't think this team can score with the Colorado/Vegas/Tampas of the league.

Defense may be a calling card, but the team still has to score goals. How many years did we watch a toothless Blues offense outside of Schwartz/Tarasenko wither and die? I'm not advocating trading Parayko to make it happen but the team is going to need a top 6 forward to either develop out of Kyrou/Kostin or trade for one. They had a lot of guys hit/come close to career highs in goal scoring this year, I wouldn't bank on it happening again.

 

[MissouriMook]

1. Of course Armstrong gets more criticism than Berube, because he’s been here through the bad times and has made some poor moves. Berube hasn’t really done much worth criticism. If you think he has, what is it?

My point was that given how pretty much every one of Army's moves from trades, to contract negotiations to free agency, gets scrutinized, if both were treated in the same manner you would see more threads and comments scrutinizing Berube's lineup decisions and game management. I guess you haven't been around here enough in the last 15 months to see all the times someone brought up a criticism and it was shot down by a comment along the lines of "Whatever, I'm not going to second guess the coach on that, he just won a damn Cup." My point is that Army doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt. Ever. On anything, not even after the ROR fleecing.

2. We all know the trade facilitated on an extension for Faulk. That doesn’t excuse it at all. Faulk was not needed and you don’t give someone that you don’t need that much a humongous contract just to acquire them. It’s an awful move.

No, what would be an awful move would be to trade for a player committing to provide a contract extension and then go back on your word and not extend the player. Faulk was an immediate upgrade on Edmundson, a player that would have been gone in a year anyway, and will be fine once he is given a consistent role that utilizes his strengths and gets partnered with a player that compliments him. Just like pretty much every other player in every other sport. Some guys just take longer to figure out. He was our best defensemen in the (brief) playoff run and he still gets the Brewer treatment. If he ends up in the #2RD role next season, however that plays out, and gets paired with a stay-at-home lefty that allows him more of a rover role like Burns he will be productive.

3. The Parayko speculation is such complete and utter nonsense. Sorry but that’s a huge reach to try to defend Armstrong. Parayko’s contract is up in 2022. You are telling me, that in 2019 - three full years in advance - Parayko and his agent are already leaking info that he’s bolting? Especially after the team he’s on just won the Cup?

Sorry, nope. That didn’t happen. There’s no way Parayko already wants out. He seems very happy here and it’s such baseless speculation that there’s no point in giving it traction. Besides, even IF that happened - Armstrong had THREE YEARS to find a replacement for him. That doesn’t excuse him acquiring Faulk immediately and handcuffing the Pietrangelo situation.

So you know what did or didn't happen between the player, his agent and Army over the last three years? I don't think so, and neither do I. And it's not about "wanting out" as much as it is about wanting to get the best deal you can on your next one, even if it isn't here. You don't think there is a chance that the term of Parayko's current deal (5 years as opposed to the max 8) had anything to do with him or his agent compromising on 5 years instead of 3 when we wanted to lock the player up for 8 because he and/or his agent wanted to get to free agency while he was still in his prime? And that the conversations that led to that possible compromise might have tipped the player/agent's hand that this would be the last deal that wasn't negotiated against deals offered by other GMs? I think it is more likely that you simply don't understand how contract negotiations work and how frequently GMs communicate with the agents of players that their teams have under contract, and for this very reason. Am I speculating with these and my previous comments? Of course I am. But for you to say there is NO WAY Army has an indication that he would be negotiating the next deal with this or any other player against the open market is naïve at best. If Army believed at any point in the last three years that he would have to pay "market price" to extend Parayko in the summer of 2022 and he believed that keeping the player would not be worth the cost to do so, the Faulk acquisition could absolutely have been related to this.

 

[Blueston]

I'm greatful Army made moves and brought us a cup. I remember reading in The Athletic that Army has a reputation of being difficult to work with. And if the reports are true and Petro is asking for less then Josi money but I'm afraid that Army is playing hardball and his stubbornness is going to cause Petro to walk a year removed from being the first player in Blues history to hoist the cup. It wouldn't look good on Army. Just my thought and opinion.

But we'll see what happens in the next 5 or so weeks.

So much pearl clutching. We haven't lost any key FA under Army. Only one who left was Backes and that contract quickly became an anvil for Bruins.

 

[Celtic Note]

I have seen plenty of criticisms of Berube’s lineup decisions. I am not sure where the belief that people don’t disagree with him comes from.

If the argument is that the Faulk trade had to come with a contract extension and that it would look bad if we didn’t sign him, then that is something you have to factor into the pros and cons analysis of the trade. The simple solution is not to make the trade, because the trade looks bad the moment the contract is tethered to it.

Regardless of Parayko’s intentions, he is still under contract with the Blues for multiple years and those years are our prime time for another Cup run. So, you keep him and later figure out what to do with him. There was no need to rush and get Faulk (especially with the expansion draft coming).

 

[The Note]

I would still take Armstrong over like 95% of the GMs in the league, and the Faulk contract was/is a massive blunder. Both things can be true.

 

[sfvega]

Defense may be a calling card, but the team still has to score goals. How many years did we watch a toothless Blues offense outside of Schwartz/Tarasenko wither and die? I'm not advocating trading Parayko to make it happen but the team is going to need a top 6 forward to either develop out of Kyrou/Kostin or trade for one. They had a lot of guys hit/come close to career highs in goal scoring this year, I wouldn't bank on it happening again.

And if we field a team with middle of the road offense and middle of the road defense, our window is closed.

 

[Celtic Note]

I would still take Armstrong over like 95% of the GMs in the league, and the Faulk contract was/is a massive blunder. Both things can be true.

Even the best of us make mistakes. It doesn’t absolve us from criticism. And, just because we can be criticized doesn’t mean we also can’t also be respected and appreciated.

 

[The Note]

And if we field a team with middle of the road offense and middle of the road defense, our window is closed.

I agree, I’m not saying to detonate the defense, but adding a top 6 forward with the uncertainty around Tarasenko suddenly has become a need as well. Hopefully Kyrou can take the next step and help in that regard.

 

[Louie the Blue]

Even if all of that is true, Army still painted himself into a corner. It's not like Army is sitting with 8M in cap space waiting for Newport to come down in demands. Hell, it's not like he even has 4M in cap space and just has to make 1 trade to free up room. Army has to make multiple trades with players that really aren't that attractive to other teams. Other teams are going to have cap dumps that are still quality players, like Pittsburgh getting Kapanen.

Bozak (with some retention), Dunn, and Allen (in the right situation) aren’t unattractive players for teams to acquire.

Heck, even Gunnar and Bortz could be moved as well.

The only contracts I wouldn’t see being feasibly moved that would the Blues currently and are very unattractive are Steen and Tarasenko.

 

[Celtic Note]

Bozak (with some retention), Dunn, and Allen (in the right situation) aren’t unattractive players for teams to acquire.

Heck, even Gunnar and Bortz could be moved as well.

The only contracts I wouldn’t see being feasibly moved that would the Blues currently and are very unattractive are Steen and Tarasenko.

The problem with moving Gunner and Bortuzzo is their replacements won’t be making much less.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Bozak (with some retention), Dunn, and Allen (in the right situation) aren’t unattractive players for teams to acquire.

Heck, even Gunnar and Bortz could be moved as well.

The only contracts I wouldn’t see being feasibly moved that would the Blues currently and are very unattractive are Steen and Tarasenko.

We have about 1.3M current cap space for next season, since we have about a 700k cap overage penalty due to performance bonuses.

Moving Dunn doesn't create space, since we probably have to move pieces just to get him signed, unless we go hardball with him and give him a 1 year deal.

With Bozak and Allen, it's going to be tough finding teams with cap space and desire, and that's not even factoring in plenty of other options of similar quality at a lower cap hit or players with similar cap hits that could be better. Allen is a 1B of a tandem, he'll have interest, but there will be lots of goalies on the market. Bozak, even with retention will only have so much interest, he's coming off a 35 point pace season.

Gunnar and Bort just don't open up much cap, even if you replace them with cheap guys like Mikkola and/or Perunovich.

If the league had the projected pre-COVID cap of $84, then we'd be fine. Not only would we have more room, so have to move less to keep Petro, but we'd have 29 potential trade partners with more cap room and flexibility to make moves. All the other teams are going to have less flexibility, made even worse when 13 teams have cap overage penalties, making even less money to be spent by the league on free agents and trades.

13 NHL teams will carry salary cap overages into next season - TSN.ca

 

[Blueston]

We have about 1.3M current cap space for next season, since we have about a 700k cap overage penalty due to performance bonuses.

Moving Dunn doesn't create space, since we probably have to move pieces just to get him signed, unless we go hardball with him and give him a 1 year deal.

With Bozak and Allen, it's going to be tough finding teams with cap space and desire, and that's not even factoring in plenty of other options of similar quality at a lower cap hit or players with similar cap hits that could be better. Allen is a 1B of a tandem, he'll have interest, but there will be lots of goalies on the market. Bozak, even with retention will only have so much interest, he's coming off a 35 point pace season.

Gunnar and Bort just don't open up much cap, even if you replace them with cheap guys like Mikkola and/or Perunovich.

If the league had the projected pre-COVID cap of $84, then we'd be fine. Not only would we have more room, so have to move less to keep Petro, but we'd have 29 potential trade partners with more cap room and flexibility to make moves. All the other teams are going to have less flexibility, made even worse when 13 teams have cap overage penalties, making even less money to be spent by the league on free agents and trades.

13 NHL teams will carry salary cap overages into next season - TSN.ca

It’s not gonna be as hard as you think. The teams with cap space and the teams who could most use these guys are quite similar lists.

 

[bleedblue1223]

It’s not gonna be as hard as you think. The teams with cap space and the teams who could most use these guys are quite similar lists.

You are forgetting the over-saturated market of players they can acquire, and a faulty assumption that teams with space will actually spend it.

Doable, but far from easy.

 

[sfvega]

Dunn we can move at any point and get good value. Not worried there. Allen I thought last off-season that he was a negative asset, but after this season and bubble and considering that he's on the last year of his deal, he shouldn't be too hard to move even with no retention. Bozak is going to be an uphill climb IMO unless tethered to Dunn. 34 year old making 5 mil who has been locked into 3rd line C and whose production is dropping. I know that if it were us who had cap space and Bozak was out there, he'd be low on the list of potential acquisitions. And judging by how other teams' fans view acquiring him, he is to them as well. I think if we plan on moving him alone that we should be prepared to either pay or retain 2-2.5 mil.

 

[Note Worthy]

 

[bleedblue1223]

And it appears Army did likely have some moves planned. One more somewhat significant move and we should be fine.