Phoenix XXXV: Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave...

[themish]

It's not "always in the interest of the taxpayers" if stopping the city from applying a band-aid ends up causing the city to bleed to death. That's exactly what the situation is here. They might be stopping a *potential* (not even confirmed) illegal transaction that might end up saving the city from losing much more money in the future.

...

It's clear that losing your main tenant in an arena that was built in your city for the sole purpose of turning it into a hot spot, and thus increasing its status as an entertainment destination where people go to spend money would have an incredible impact on the economy of the city. Whether it's 500 million, less or more, it's still going to cost the city and eventually its tax payers LOTS of money. Sometimes risks are worthy of the reward, and that's clearly how the City of Glendale feels in regards to the whole bond issue. They aren't doing this for the love of hockey, they are doing this because they NEED to do this. If they could afford to lose the franchise and let the arena sit dormant, they wouldn't be as involved as they are.

Sorry man, I realize that you are obviously mad and upset with what's going on there in Glendale, but I don't know how all of a sudden there's a profit to be had when there hasn't been profit in 15 years. Yeah Winnipeg wants a team, but if the Coyotes weren't in such a terrible situation, we wouldn't be asking for them back.

If the coyotes were successful, Winnipeg would be SOL.

 

[Killion]

There would be speculation surrounding this franchise and this deal for years.

Not the league, youd have the agreement drawn up between the lenders & MH. For example, Jacobs & Snider or AEG. A 5year loan with very favorable rates. If the team cant cut it after 5yrs, it can be sold for relo, easily recouping Hulsizers investment with few restrictions as to where it can go (hello Hamilton with indemnifications if you want it included). All Star Games, Drafts, inclusion/site of Winter Classics' promised to the lenders. That passes my smell test. The only problem with it is Matthew Hulsizer. He's not willing to pay the full price for admission, though perhaps under these terms he might.....

 

[Dado]

What do you mean "can be sold for Relo" -- no out clauses allowed!

:p

 

[leoleo3535]

All he's saying in that quote is the truth: it's an uphill battle. Does it mean it's impossible? No, as certain success stories as recent as 3 years ago (Nashville Predators, who are doing VERY well for themselves since they got an owner that cares for the team and good management). There's plenty of other success stories in the southern markets that we can look up to. The fact of the matter is, hockey is as popular as it has ever been in the United States, and its growth in the past decade is second only to the NFL while certain other sports have regressed, such as Baseball. Sources for this: the new american tv deal, this article and this article. There are plenty of other examples of this.

Furthermore, Colangelo's out of context quote doesn't mean he doesn't believe in the franchise, nor that he wouldn't help it stay in Arizona.

Who cares if the poster is from WPG or Mars.
Colangelo has been very vocal for years re the Coyotes.
Believes hockey markets are - Canada, Mid west, east......

"knowing the numbers as I believe I do without the NHL underwriting the team and Glendale subsidizing and or giving free rent........"

It is interesting to note that many Phoenix "fans" dump on Moyes.....Colangelo praises him.

http://www.fan590.com/ondemand/media.jsp?content=20090527_174005_7736

 

[Potrzebie]

As the administrator stated, please show me your source before bringing up these so called facts or else your post can't be taken seriously.

Furthermore, actual attendance is irrelevant if an extra 1000 per game were actually sold. It isn't uncommon for season ticket holders not to attend every single game, especially when it is businesses. The important thing is that Phoenix sold more tickets than Winnipeg did throughout its existence.

For the people romanticizing hockey in Winnipeg, embellishing the support for the team that the city displayed in a way that makes it seem like the "obvious choice" for a new franchise, this makes things look pretty bad when a number of people complained about the attendance in Phoenix as a way to support their cause.

You missed the point of my post entirely. Whether I believe any of the "facts" is irrelevant. I don't wish to debate them. I don't care whether they're accurate or not. I was merely trying to point out that you keep attacking other posters for their confirmation bias when you are guilty of the exact same thing and it's grown extremely tiresome. Your ignoring the bankruptcy document that contradicts your belief that PHX has outdrawn WPG during their tenure was just one example.

It's OK to have an agenda. Pretending you're the only one who doesn't is something else.

 

[Killion]

What do you mean "can be sold for Relo" -- no out clauses allowed!

Yepp. They can either leave now or your looking at a 5 year reprieve to get things on the rails. Im sure Glendale would be amenable, however, I just cant see MH biting..... So. Any other ideas?.

 

[mrCoffea*]

Sorry man, I realize that you are obviously mad and upset with what's going on there in Glendale, but I don't know how all of a sudden there's a profit to be had when there hasn't been profit in 15 years. Yeah Winnipeg wants a team, but if the Coyotes weren't in such a terrible situation, we wouldn't be asking for them back.

If the coyotes were successful, Winnipeg would be SOL.

It took Nashville a long time, but they got there

Phoenix has had everything going against them from the start: bad lease/parking terms, ownership problems, a coach that commanded a ridiculous salary for a long time (taking advantage of the owner), a ridiculous salary that didn't translate into on ice success by any stretch of the imagination.

Now they have a good coach, a solid team (assuming they can resign a bunch of players) and a potential owner that will care about the franchise. More than anything, the city of Glendale might offer more realistic terms in order to keep the team.

 

[DeathToAllButMetal]

It took Nashville a long time, but they got there

Phoenix has had everything going against them from the start: bad lease/parking terms, ownership problems, a coach that commanded a ridiculous salary for a long time (taking advantage of the owner), a ridiculous salary that didn't translate into on ice success by any stretch of the imagination.

Now they have a good coach, a solid team (assuming they can resign a bunch of players) and a potential owner that will care about the franchise. More than anything, the city of Glendale might offer more realistic terms in order to keep the team.

And they're still not drawing flies. Two playoff seasons, two seasons at the bottom on the league for attendance, with tickets given away with every Slurpee bought at 7-11.

Which sort of leads me to my point here -- Is there any sort of business plan out there for reviving the Phoenix Coyotes? We've heard so much about Hulsizer's love for the game, commitment, etc., but has he put together an actual business plan for how to turn this club around and get it to at least a break-even stage?

This is what I don't get at all. The NHL seems totally committed to the Phoenix market. Glendale is willing to dole out hundreds of millions to keep the team in place. Yet nobody seems to have done a basic business plan laying out the steps that will be taken to make the Coyotes a break-even or profitable organization in the next five or so seasons.

Sorry, but that makes no sense at all. For all those arguing that the $100 million is another business subsidy like anything else, it ain't. Anybody who wants any amount of money from government at any level needs to come in with a business plan. Yet we don't have that at all here. Just some vague promises and assurances about how things will get better with a new owner, winning on the ice, etc.

1. Sell team to Matt Hulsizer.
2. Give Matt Hulsizer $200 million.
3. ?????
4. Profit!

 

[Roadrage]

And they're still not drawing flies. Two playoff seasons, two seasons at the bottom on the league for attendance, with tickets given away with every Slurpee bought at 7-11.

Which sort of leads me to my point here -- Is there any sort of business plan out there for reviving the Phoenix Coyotes? We've heard so much about Hulsizer's love for the game, commitment, etc., but has he put together an actual business plan for how to turn this club around and get it to at least a break-even stage?

This is what I don't get at all. The NHL seems totally committed to the Phoenix market. Glendale is willing to dole out hundreds of millions to keep the team in place. Yet nobody seems to have done a basic business plan laying out the steps that will be taken to make the Coyotes a break-even or profitable organization in the next five or so seasons.

Sorry, but that makes no sense at all. For all those arguing that the $100 million is another business subsidy like anything else, it ain't. Anybody who wants any amount of money from government at any level needs to come in with a business plan. Yet we don't have that at all here. Just some vague promises and assurances about how things will get better with a new owner, winning on the ice, etc.

1. Sell team to Matt Hulsizer.
2. Give Matt Hulsizer $200 million.
3. ?????
4. Profit!

I believe you have #1 and 2 mixed up. He can't buy the team until he gives a cheque to the NHL which means the city would have to pay him ahead of time.

 

[Fourier]

Colangelo interview about his views on hockey, Doesn't sound like the savior for the Coyotes

Hockey is not a real good tv sport? That does not sound like a ringing endorsement from Colangelo.

My guess is that they are picking Colangelo's brain for some help with a creative solution.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

Sorry man, I realize that you are obviously mad and upset with what's going on there in Glendale, but I don't know how all of a sudden there's a profit to be had when there hasn't been profit in 15 years. Yeah Winnipeg wants a team, but if the Coyotes weren't in such a terrible situation, we wouldn't be asking for them back.

So because the Coyotes are losing money, all of Westgate is automatically losing money as well? I fail to see how the two correlate, nor have I seen any evidence to suggest that Westgate has been losing money for the last fifteen years (especially considering it's only been around for five).

 

[Fugu]

Saying it has a cult following is kind of weird too. In some markets, it's genuinely a sport that's well established with a solid history and fan base.

 

[mrCoffea*]

And they're still not drawing flies. Two playoff seasons, two seasons at the bottom on the league for attendance, with tickets given away with every Slurpee bought at 7-11.

Which sort of leads me to my point here -- Is there any sort of business plan out there for reviving the Phoenix Coyotes? We've heard so much about Hulsizer's love for the game, commitment, etc., but has he put together an actual business plan for how to turn this club around and get it to at least a break-even stage?

This is what I don't get at all. The NHL seems totally committed to the Phoenix market. Glendale is willing to dole out hundreds of millions to keep the team in place. Yet nobody seems to have done a basic business plan laying out the steps that will be taken to make the Coyotes a break-even or profitable organization in the next five or so seasons.

Sorry, but that makes no sense at all. For all those arguing that the $100 million is another business subsidy like anything else, it ain't. Anybody who wants any amount of money from government at any level needs to come in with a business plan. Yet we don't have that at all here. Just some vague promises and assurances about how things will get better with a new owner, winning on the ice, etc.

1. Sell team to Matt Hulsizer.
2. Give Matt Hulsizer $200 million.
3. ?????
4. Profit!

Yes, I'm sure he just took the decision to buy the team on a whim and has no business plan whatsoever

 

[Fugu]

So because the Coyotes are losing money, all of Westgate is automatically losing money as well? I fail to see how the two correlate, nor have I seen any evidence to suggest that Westgate has been losing money for the last fifteen years (especially considering it's only been around for five).

That's the question. Is it losing money or not? The city has presented a picture of doom and gloom if the Coyotes leave (for the development). It is a lot of crystal ball gazing.

 

[mrCoffea*]

Hockey is not a real good tv sport? That does not sound like a ringing endorsement from Colangelo.

My guess is that they are picking Colangelo's brain for some help with a creative solution.

He is right, it isn't a good tv sport in the USA because it barely gets any coverage. With the new TV deal this issue has been padded a bit, but I still think that the NHL would be doing much better than it currently is if it had more exposure on american television, especially on ESPN

 

[mrCoffea*]

Saying it has a cult following is kind of weird too. In some markets, it's genuinely a sport that's well established with a solid history and fan base.

As an administrator of this site, you should know better than anyone else that he is right about that statement. The americans posting on this board don't represent the average american sports fan, they represent the niche hardcore hockey fan.

Obviously there are many people in the USA that love hockey, that consider it their favorite sport, and it is more respected in certain markets rather than others, but overall it's still a niche sport to the average american. I don't see how anyone can claim otherwise.

 

[Fourier]

Saying it has a cult following is kind of weird too. In some markets, it's genuinely a sport that's well established with a solid history and fan base.

I think that even this is an understatement. Hockey has a long history in much more of the US than most realise.

 

[seanlinden]

How so? Goldwater believes that Glendale is taking on $100M in additional debt plus $97M in arena management fees over 5 years. How is preventing $197M in additional debt / expenses not in the taxpayers interest?

750 minimum lower wage jobs does not equal $197 million. How many professional City jobs (policy, fire, infrastructure) could this money be otherwise directed to?

The only way one can assume that Goldwater is not doing whats in the taxpayers interest, is if you buy the City's claim that they will lose $500M if the Coyotes leave. That analysis is misleading. In fact, Judge Baum called this report "crystal ball analysis" and limited Glendale's claim to $2.5 million in the BK proceedings.

Furthermore, many teams have lost sports teams (see Winnipeg) and aside from one or two restaurants, life goes on. The damages from an economic perspective are minimal - and certainly not $500M.

Like I said earlier, the time to debate the wisdom of this deal from the City's perspective has long since passed. If they felt that it was better to let the team go and lose the anchor of that area's economy, then the time to express that view was in December when it faced city council. That's what governments are there to do.

We can conclude that they aren't acting in the taxpayers best interests, because they have effectively raised the cost to the taxpayers of this deal by threating to sue, and have gone against the elective representative who are responsible for acting on behalf of taxpayers. The people who the taxpayers elected feel this in their best interest -- it's their call to make.

Preventing a municipal government from doing something illegal with taxpayer dollars is always in the best interests of the taxpayers. (Again, leaving aside whether a court of law would say it's illegal or not, Goldwater thinks it is).

You might also want to re-think what will happen if the team leaves compared to what will happen if the deal goes through. If the team leaves, maybe Westgate implodes, maybe not. If the team stays, the government has committed to spending something like $350 million on additional bond repayments and who knows how much in management fees, at least $97 million and likely more. At best, it's a gigantic risk with taxpayer money that some day might break even. At worst, it's throwing a whole pile of good money after bad.

Keeping the team in Glendale is "best" for Mayor Scruggy, it isn't necessarily what's "best" for the taxpayers.

"illegal" and "best interest" are two wildly independent things. Even if it was illegal, that doesn't neccessarily mean it's not within the taxpayers best interests.

As I said above, the time to debate the wisdom of this deal from the City's perspective is long gone. If Goldwater was acting in the best interest of the taxpayers, they would have exercized democratic dissent in December, and then accepted the decision of the CoG whichever way it went. Alternatively, if they felt the taxpayers best interest was not being served by the City Council, then they should push for impeachment.

If "Mayor Scruggy" is no longer acting in the taxpayers best interests, she will be impeached or not re-elected. Until one of those two things happen, she & city council must be allowed to run the municipal government. That's what democracy is.

 

[mrCoffea*]

That's the question. Is it losing money or not? The city has presented a picture of doom and gloom if the Coyotes leave (for the development). It is a lot of crystal ball gazing.

Clearly the City of Glendale knows more than anyone else what the situation is. You think they would be fighting this hard if losing the team didn't matter to the overall health of the city and its plans for the Westgate development? I'll trust the city with all the data, analysts and economists over the educated guess of a fan that they *might* be exaggerating their claims

 

[Fourier]

As an administrator of this site, you should know better than anyone else that he is right about that statement. The americans posting on this board don't represent the average american sports fan, they represent the niche hardcore hockey fan.

Obviously there are many people in the USA that love hockey, that consider it their favorite sport, and it is more respected in certain markets rather than others, but overall it's still a niche sport to the average american. I don't see how anyone can claim otherwise.

The Canadians on this site don't represent the average Canadian sports fan either.

Hockey may well be a niche sport, but I would agree with Fugu that the use of the word "cult" was surprising.

 

[mrCoffea*]

The Canadians on this site don't represent the average Canadian sports fan either.

Hockey may well be a niche sport, but I would agree with Fugu that the use of the word "cult" was surprising.

I think they do. You can take most of what's written on any Canadian board to the streets of Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver, and continue the conversation with the average sports fan that you meet.

I don't think you could do the same between what's being said on an American board.

Keep in mind our sports stations start their highlights with Hockey, and dedicate a majority of their sports news to hockey related talk. In the USA, ESPN barely even inputs the scores and good luck seeing any highlights.

You just can't compare the situation here compared to there. I've lived in both countries, I've seen it first hand

 

[Steve Passless*]

Colangelo has been very vocal for years re the Coyotes.
Believes hockey markets are - Canada, Mid west, east......

Where would he get an idea like that?

 

[Donwood]

So what does the mall do on the 324 days the Coyotes don't play? Do the board it up for six months over the summer? If a mall needs the 41 home Coyote games to survive that obviously it should never have been built.

 

[DeathToAllButMetal]

Yes, I'm sure he just took the decision to buy the team on a whim and has no business plan whatsoever

Then let's see it! Hulsizer's asking for hundreds of millions in support directly from Glendale taxpayers...but his business plan is, uh, nobody's business?

Come on. The very least Hulsizer could do is go public with his business plan to turn the Coyotes around. This is just another glaring example of how this whole scam of a deal has been done behind the scenes by Glendale, Hulsizer, and the NHL.

Local taxpayers should be infuriated over how they've been treated here. Even if you wanted to support a subsidy, how can you? Where is the evidence to show that this team can be successful? And please note that this is totally different than Glendale's "We're going to lose $500 million" estimate, as that means nothing if the city funds the team and it still goes under in a couple of seasons because the massive losses continue.

 

[DeathToAllButMetal]

Clearly the City of Glendale knows more than anyone else what the situation is. You think they would be fighting this hard if losing the team didn't matter to the overall health of the city and its plans for the Westgate development? I'll trust the city with all the data, analysts and economists over the educated guess of a fan that they *might* be exaggerating their claims

Okay, then let's see the numbers. Let's see Glendale actually put out some data and economic analyses that clearly show life without the Coyotes and life with the Coyotes.

Have you even looked at Glendale's ridiculous statements about the losses the city would incur? There isn't any there, there. It's just a bunch of blanket statements about how awful things would be with nothing to back any of this up.

You have an incredible amount of trust in a city government. Trust that I don't think you would have on any other issue.