Phoenix XXXIII: Sound of Silence

[Dado]

I believe the league wanted their money back plus losses they incurred, No more no less.

It's not really CoG's problem that the NHL overpaid for the franchise.

 

[Confucius]

It's not really CoG's problem that the NHL overpaid for the franchise.

Apparently it will be

 

[pirate94]

I believe the league wanted their money back plus losses they incurred, No more no less.

and CoG agreed to that, they could have said no. I'm sensing some incoming hostility towards Gary Bettman. He did more than enough to keep that team in Glendale.

 

[Moe Mantha]

Good question.

Why didn't PHX, CAR and COL have to?

I'm not going to waste time complaining that it's unfair - I welcome the challenge! I too am dying to see Winnipeg step up to the plate and prove the naysayers wrong.

I've already got my ducks lined up, they just need to open the phone lines.

 

[Grudy0]

I have to give this one a go...

Terrible ownership? I'm sorry i have extreme issues with that belief. Tickets are greatly reduced for a team that is very competitive for 2 years straight and people can barely be bothered to go to games. the NHL has told them "we want the NHL to work in Arizona" they've tried repeatedly.

Doesn't "competitive for 2 years straight" coincide with the bankruptcy filing? Doesn't that give the impresson of a lame-duck franchise? After all, I could swear 2-plus years ago the attendance was marginally better.

Don't talk about "running the numbers", because that would change the argument into attendance, shortly followed by "bad owners", which isn't even an argument worth getting into.

Sure, but then let's face it, everyone that might have wanted to did take a look at the books and wouldn't buy the franchise with their own money and keep it in Glendale.

It isn't that I am disagreeing, much, because until '09-'10 the Coyotes were drawing more than the Islanders. I'm more in the belief that with the hiring of Gretzky that the business philosophy was changed and the ownership wasn't able to have the revenue streams like that of the Islanders, specifically local TV, or even attendance revenue.

 

[Mungman]

I'm not going to waste time complaining that it's unfair - I welcome the challenge! I too am dying to see Winnipeg step up to the plate and prove the naysayers wrong.

I've already got my ducks lined up, they just need to open the phone lines.

BINGO Right answer, and if the same had happened in PHX the last two seasons (ok longer than that more like since the move to Jobing.com) this discussion would not be happening right on this page but on the ATL page, or the Long Island page, or the FLA page.....

 

[pirate94]

I have to give this one a go...Doesn't "competitive for 2 years straight" coincide with the bankruptcy filing? Doesn't that give the impresson of a lame-duck franchise? After all, I could swear 2-plus years ago the attendance was marginally better.Sure, but then let's face it, everyone that might have wanted to did take a look at the books and wouldn't buy the franchise with their own money and keep it in Glendale.

It isn't that I am disagreeing, much, because until '09-'10 the Coyotes were drawing more than the Islanders. I'm more in the belief that with the hiring of Gretzky that the business philosophy was changed and the ownership wasn't able to have the revenue streams like that of the Islanders, specifically local TV, or even attendance revenue.

If your attendance 2 years ago didn't have more fudge than a Ghirardelli plant, that team would have turned profit.
That team lost $500 million dollars in 15 years dude. That's 3-1/2 Coyotes franchises.

I can understand you bringing in the Islanders argument. 2 different teams in 2 different situations with 2 different salary caps

 

[Howler Scores]

I'm not making up quotes. I asked you a question, if it's that hard of a question to say yes or no, then i understand.

Terrible ownership? I'm sorry i have extreme issues with that belief. Tickets are greatly reduced for a team that is very competitive for 2 years straight and people can barely be bothered to go to games. the NHL has told them "we want the NHL to work in Arizona" they've tried repeatedly.

If you think people there won't know the difference between AHL and NHL i'd say i feel for you, but if that team leaves, it's not because the NHL didn't try and make it work there. If AHL hockey is not good enough for you, then Arizona isn't the hockey state you seem to think it is.

Don't talk about "running the numbers", because that would change the argument into attendance, shortly followed by "bad owners", which isn't even an argument worth getting into.

1. Average attendance of the Roadrunners: around 3,600
2. Average attendance of the 2010-2011 Coyotes: 12,208 (71% of capacity)

Of course the games over the last month have actually produced sellouts since they have been on TV and the news is talking about the Coyotes in a positive light for the last month. Before that, they would be lucky to be on TV and get any marketing in the Valley but people still went. The casual fan is not aware of a Coyotes game if it’s not marketed to them in this area; expressing the excitement of the game actually gets the commuters to drive into Glendale.

There is no other way to get to the area without driving since we don’t have a public transportation system (light rail doesn’t go that far yet) so they have to park and they will pay. I know I pay my $10 for the parking lot next to the stadium so yes, it has and will work. A lot of NHL franchises lost money this year but I think they can get some of that swagger back in the light of all the NBA and NFL issues; perhaps even a real TV contract instead of the once a week NBC game featuring the Blackhawks or Red Wings would do the league some good.

If you want to use the argument that another market can produce higher attendance figures than go ahead (28 other markets can say that); but to say an AHL team can replace what the Coyotes bring 41 nights a year is silly. (People won’t drive 35+ miles to go see a concert when US Airways Center is closer and a competing concert is going on).

http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

 

[pirate94]

1. Average attendance of the Roadrunners: around 3,600
2. Average attendance of the 2010-2011 Coyotes: 12,208 (71% of capacity)

Of course the games over the last month have actually produced sellouts since they have been on TV and the news is talking about the Coyotes in a positive light for the last month. Before that, they would be lucky to be on TV and get any marketing in the Valley but people still went. The casual fan is not aware of a Coyotes game if it’s not marketed to them in this area; expressing the excitement of the game actually gets the commuters to drive into Glendale.

There is no other way to get to the area without driving since we don’t have a public transportation system (light rail doesn’t go that far yet) so they have to park and they will pay. I know I pay my $10 for the parking lot next to the stadium so yes, it has and will work. A lot of NHL franchises lost money this year but I think they can get some of that swagger back in the light of all the NBA and NFL issues; perhaps even a real TV contract instead of the once a week NBC game featuring the Blackhawks or Red Wings would do the league some good.

If you want to use the argument that another market can produce higher attendance figures than go ahead (28 other markets can say that); but to say an AHL team can replace what the Coyotes bring 41 nights a year is silly. (People won’t drive 35+ miles to go see a concert when US Airways Center is closer and a competing concert is going on).

http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

Sorry, averaged "announced" attendance is 12,808

There's less reality there than a George Lucas daydream

 

[Alex The Loyal]

12,000 for a decent playoff team? What a joke.

I know the amount of people that actually show up doesn't really matter, it's the amount of tickets sold.....but holy ****

 

[pirate94]

one of my favourite pictures when people argue average attendance at a Coyotes game

http://bathtime.tumblr.com/post/4418668801/be-kavalier-announced-attendance-at-coyotes

 

[Howler Scores]

12,000 for a decent playoff team? What a joke.

I know the amount of people that actually show up doesn't really matter, it's the amount of tickets sold.....but holy ****

You are kidden right? That is on top of this whole will they / won’t they move issue. That is a great figure over the year since for the first couple of months you couldn’t hear one advertisement about them. I am sorry but the average fan is not going to invest their time and energy into a team that may or may not be here next year. It’s not good for season ticket sales either so some marketing and showing this team will stay gets butts in the seats (see the last month's worth of attendance figures). I was asked earlier if I thought the team could turn it around for a little cash and my answer was yes. I am not the only one that thinks this as someone is trying to buy the team to stay. You guys may win and the team moves but until then I am going to write my letters, buy my tickets, pay for my parking pass, and grab a beer.

 

[Killion]

I don't want no Scruggs

Oh come now pirate, you dont like George Harrison?. All Things Must Pass?. One of the greatest albums ever cut?. You dont remember Apple Scruggs?.

Now Ive watched you sitting there
Seen the passers-by all stare
Like you have no place to go
But theres so much they dont know about Apple Scruggs

Youve been stood around for years
Seen my smiles and touched my tears
How its been a long, long time
And how youve been on my mind, my Apple Scruggs

chorus:

Apple Scruuuuggs, Aaaapple Scrugg yug yug yug yuggs
How I love you, Oh how how I love you

In the fog and in the rain
Through the pleasure and the pain
On the step outside you stand
With your flowers in your hand, my Apple Scruggs

While the years they come and go
Now, your love must surely show me
That beyond all this time and space
Were together face to face, My Apple Scruggs

Apple Scruuuuugs, Apple Scruuuuuuuuuggs ya ya ya yuggs
How I love you, Oh How I love you.......

(Note; yes, I changed 2 wee letters.)

 

[pirate94]

Oh come now pirate, you dont like George Harrison?. All Things Must Pass?. One of the greatest albums ever cut?. You dont remember Apple Scruggs?.

Now Ive watched you sitting there
Seen the passers-by all stare
Like you have no place to go
But theres so much they dont know about Apple Scruggs

Youve been stood around for years
Seen my smiles and touched my tears
How its been a long, long time
And how youve been on my mind, my Apple Scruggs

chorus:

Apple Scruuuuggs, Aaaapple Scrugg yug yug yug yuggs
How I love you, Oh how how I love you

In the fog and in the rain
Through the pleasure and the pain
On the step outside you stand
With your flowers in your hand, my Apple Scruggs

While the years they come and go
Now, your love must surely show me
That beyond all this time and space
Were together face to face, My Apple Scruggs

Apple Scruuuuugs, Apple Scruuuuuuuuuggs ya ya ya yuggs
How I love you, Oh How I love you.......

(Note; yes, I changed 2 wee letters.)

haha. im too contemporary i guess

 

[Roadrage]

You are kidden right? That is on top of this whole will they / won’t they move issue. That is a great figure over the year since for the first couple of months you couldn’t hear one advertisement about them. I am sorry but the average fan is not going to invest their time and energy into a team that may or may not be here next year. It’s not good for season ticket sales either so some marketing and showing this team will stay gets butts in the seats (see the last month's worth of attendance figures). I was asked earlier if I thought the team could turn it around for a little cash and my answer was yes. I am not the only one that thinks this as someone is trying to buy the team to stay. You guys may win and the team moves but until then I am going to write my letters, buy my tickets, pay for my parking pass, and grab a beer.

I thought parking was free at Jobing?!?! Is there a VIP lot or something I miss when we were there last?

 

[Howler Scores]

I thought parking was free at Jobing?!?! Is there a VIP lot or something I miss when we were there last?

The far lots are still free but there are $20, $15, and $10 parking options. Thats why I dont think the idea of generating a good amount from parking is such a crazy idea. I love the $10 parking pass because the entrance is right there to my seats.

http://coyotes.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=58276

Lot G ($10) fills up pretty quickly on busy nights.

 

[objectiveposter]

The far lots are still free but there are $20, $15, and $10 parking options. Thats why I dont think the idea of generating a good amount from parking is such a crazy idea. I love the $10 parking pass because the entrance is right there to my seats.

http://coyotes.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=58276

Lot G ($10) fills up pretty quickly on busy nights.

so they are already charging for parking in some lots? who gets that mone the coyotes or glendale?

 

[Howler Scores]

so they are already charging for parking in some lots? who gets that mone the coyotes or glendale?

You know I wish that was discussed more since that analysis should be included in some of the reports (and the general public would know that some lots are already being paid by the fans). An uneducated guess would say the Coyotes since the parking passes are sold with season tickets or you can buy one in advance through Ticketmaster. However, this is a new process (last year or two) since before that it was season ticket holder passes only.

 

[Roughneck]

so they are already charging for parking in some lots? who gets that mone the coyotes or glendale?

If it's the Coyotes then imagine how much their losses will be when they sell the parking rights.

If it's the city then it doesn't make any sense because the city doesn't own the parking rights. If they did then they wouldn't need to buy them, would they?

 

[Gwyddbwyll]

I'm tired of this false argument being used to bash the franchise. "The Coyotes have always been a great playoffs team for the last 2 years and its shocking the fans arent turning up."

But unless you can show me you expected more than a bottom-feeding team out of them last season AND this season, you certainly don't get to criticize the fans for having exactly the same expectation you did. You're being disingenuous if you don't admit the Coyotes making the playoffs in 2010 was actually against all odds and more importantly, against all expectation. The Coyotes only made it into the playoffs on the last game of this season, struggling all the way in the toughest division in the league.

Slam the attendances all you like, but that particular argument is invalid. Attempting it says more about your fickleness ("Oh yeah I've always thought the Coyotes were certs for the playoffs") and says more about your agenda than the point you tried to make.

 

[AtomBlaster]

Absolutely. You deserve a chance to "raise the roof" (not to be confused with MTSC expansion) for your team a final time. If I was Mark Chipman (or even played him on TV), I would arrange an exhibition game in Glendale, with the team playing in Coyotes uniforms (assuming the NHL would allow). Or maybe we create a 3rd uniform cleverly similar to the Coyotes'). After the game, I would sell off the worn (and laundered, just to be clear) jerseys to raise money for a Phoenix charity. I think that would be a classy gesture to the fans that have kept this franchise alive for 15 years.

Of course, if you end up keeping the team, I hope you all go broke from tax debt and the team loses every game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goyotes
What really sucks is if the fans do not have a chance to give the team a proper send-off.

It does suck that if this plays out the way it looks now that you won't have a chance for a proper farewell. However I totally agree with playing exhibition games in Phoenix in honor of the fans that kept this franchise alive, the Coyotes came to play exhibition games in Wpg which helps keep our hope alive. The uniform in honor and cash to charity is good to. Either way go enjoy however many play off games are left for, live it to the fullest for yourself, the other fans, coaches, and players. Make it memorable. It was a sad but amazing feeling in 96. I hope that if the team does move to Wpg or wherever that all the past players that have been honored (by retirement of sweater in Wpg & ring of honor in Phoenix) continue to be honored. That was a sign of class by Phoenix and needs to be repaid.

 

[dronald]

I'm tired of this false argument being used to bash the franchise. "The Coyotes have always been a great playoffs team for the last 2 years and its shocking the fans arent turning up."

But unless you can show me you expected more than a bottom-feeding team out of them last season AND this season, you certainly don't get to criticize the fans for having exactly the same expectation you did. You're being disingenuous if you don't admit the Coyotes making the playoffs in 2010 was actually against all odds and more importantly, against all expectation. The Coyotes only made it into the playoffs on the last game of this season, struggling all the way in the toughest division in the league.

Slam the attendances all you like, but that particular argument is invalid. Attempting it says more about your fickleness ("Oh yeah I've always thought the Coyotes were certs for the playoffs") and says more about your agenda than the point you tried to make.

I was positive the Yotes would make the playoffs this season... Especially when they only had 8 games left.

 

[Whileee]

CoG will never go after GWI.

I would not be at all surprised, however, if they went after the NHL for "blocking" the sale by "insisting" on a price so far above meaningful market value that it guaranteed a relocation.

Bad Faith Bettman...

I agree that it would be very surprising if the COG waited until AFTER the team left to initiate legal action against the GWI. It would be hard to take their claims of $500 million in economic damage in that case, having not take pre-emptive legal action.

I think they would have little cause to sue the NHL over the purchase price. They supported the NHL's purchase bid in the bankruptcy court for $140 million. The NHL's asking price is built on that by adding losses from the initial season when the COG could not come to a lease agreement with a prospective owner (either Reinsdorf or IEH), which boosted the asking price by about $25 million. For this past season the COG signed an agreement to pay up to $25 million in operating losses to the NHL. So it is hard to see how the COG could now sue the NHL for setting the purchase price.

 

[Zil]

haha. im too contemporary i guess

It wouldn't make a difference since the name of the song is actually "Apple Scruffs."

 

[Killion]

I agree that it would be very surprising if the COG waited until AFTER the team left to initiate legal action against the GWI. It would be hard to take their claims of $500 million in economic damage in that case, having not take pre-emptive legal action..

I agree Whileee. The COG has zero recourse to sue the NHL having signed away virtually all of their rights to do so through the interim lease & loss guarantee's. They obviously are not going to be seeking a declarative judgment nor do I think politically, let alone legally speaking, is there any justification for commencing suit against the GWI. Tortious interference or not, even a favorable decision would be hollow financially & costly to pursue, and as you mentioned, Im sure the last thing Glendale wants to have happen is to have Beasley et al deposed in open court by Bolick & the rest of their Hyenas'. But Jerry Moyes?. Im guessing that guys in for one rude awakening in the form a major suit post the NHL's litigation against him. And if he loses that, and it looks likely he will, this could still get really really ugly.....