Phoenix XLIV: Ignorance & Apathy (or I Doan't Know & I Doan't Care)

[RandR]

The bolded part should be telling that they have been told at least that, or it may be a done deal. Afterall think about it, you're building an arena everyone's excited, why not talk about your desires for a team? Pretty strange they take the we don't want to go there attitude, on their own. I feel they must have been told/asked to take that stance.

I agree that that means they have been talking to the NHL and were told that they must give way to the league to control what and when things can go public.

However I am not so sure they have been promised that they will be getting a team this year (although I still put it at 75% chance). TNSE played "lets keep a secret" with the NHL for years before their chance came up... I think Quebec could wait years too.

I think the city and PKP would actually be quite happy to wait provided that there is a commitment that a team is coming sooner or later. It may even suit them if the Coyotes can stay in Phoenix for another year or more before moving to Quebec ... this coming season may be disrupted by a labour stoppage, PKP might save some money by not having to play in the Colisee for 3 years, and the city would save money if Quebec doesn't get a team until 2015 because they wouldn't have to spend about $7 million to fix up the Colisee.

 

[cheswick]

The bolded part should be telling that they have been told at least that, or it may be a done deal. Afterall think about it, you're building an arena everyone's excited, why not talk about your desires for a team? Pretty strange they take the we don't want to go there attitude, on their own. I feel they must have been told/asked to take that stance.

I think they're bright enough to see the TNSE approach vs the Bailsille approach and see which is successful. The NHL knows they're interested, they know the NHL requires a modern rink. There isn't much else to say. I personally don't think there is any sort of secret deal done. Just like there wasn't one done in Winnipeg when many peopel speculated there was. The Quebec group is getting their ducks in a row and waiting and playing the NHL's game cause that's how you get a team. They want to be ready for when the NHL comes calling.

 

[Matrix78]

I agree that that means they have been talking to the NHL and were told that they must give way to the league to control what and when things can go public.

However I am not so sure they have been promised that they will be getting a team this year (although I still put it at 75% chance). TNSE played "lets keep a secret" with the NHL for years before their chance came up... I think Quebec could wait years too.

I think the city and PKP would actually be quite happy to wait provided that there is a commitment that a team is coming sooner or later. It may even suit them if the Coyotes can stay in Phoenix for another year or more before moving to Quebec ... this coming season may be disrupted by a labour stoppage, PKP might save some money by not having to play in the Colisee for 3 years, and the city would save money if Quebec doesn't get a team until 2015 because they wouldn't have to spend about $7 million to fix up the Colisee.

However it would be hard to justify putting 7 million to fix the colisée for only 1 year. So if it's now or maybe in 2015, I'm sure PKP want it now.
Don't forget that PKP needs a team for his sport channel to compete against RDS or he will lose a lot of money too.

 

[RandR]

However it would be hard to justify putting 7 million to fix the colisée for only 1 year. So if it's now or maybe in 2015, I'm sure PKP want it now. Don't forget that PKP needs a team for his sport channel to compete against RDS or he will lose a lot of money too.

Good points, and it is often wise to seize opportunities when they present themselves because they may not be there when they suit you. The danger of waiting is that things change (eg- in this case, in a year's time Seattle may have broken ground on a new arena). In any case, it's not like PKP will be given a choice as to when he can get a team anyway... the NHL will decide that, not him. I just don't think it is necessarily this year, nor do I think that waiting 1-3 years is entirely a bad thing.

I think they're bright enough to see the TNSE approach vs the Bailsille approach and see which is successful. The NHL knows they're interested, they know the NHL requires a modern rink. There isn't much else to say. I personally don't think there is any sort of secret deal done. Just like there wasn't one done in Winnipeg when many peopel speculated there was. The Quebec group is getting their ducks in a row and waiting and playing the NHL's game cause that's how you get a team. They want to be ready for when the NHL comes calling.

I think this is precisely what is happening. I do think there have been negotiations though, more than what the NHL has been admitting to.

 

[cbcwpg]

I do think there have been negotiations though, more than what the NHL has been admitting to.

The NHL could have started negotiating with anyone as of Jan 1 2011 ( IIRC ), but regardless of the date, there is no way the NHL hasn't been actively negotiating with interests outside of Phoenix.

At a moments notice either the CoG ( by saying no to another $25M ) or a potential buyer ( by saying forget it, It's not going to work ) could pull the plug and the NHL has to be in a position to deal with that, even if it doesn't come to pass.

I said before a few posts back. There is not enough time between now and the start of the next season to "start" negotiations now, sell the team, and get ready for next season. The NHL has already made up it's mind as to whom they will sell the team to if the team has to move. We just are left guessing as to whom they picked.

 

[Killion]

I think this is precisely what is happening. I do think there have been negotiations though, more than what the NHL has been admitting to.

Absolutely. March 22nd NHL personnel were reportedly seen at the Colisee checking out the buildings mechanicals etc. You dont drop 8-10M renovating the place for the Remparts, telling the concessionaires to pull their equipment out etc unless your expecting a new tenant, nor do you quite blatantly not even mention the NHL or answer questions about it 3 days later in a Press Confab announcing the formal financing & construction schedule of a 400M arena....

Whats particularilly galling is that the NHL hasnt had the decency to notify the Mayor & Glendale. Its understandable why they havent done so on one level, however on several others that I believe supercede the potential harm at the gate as the Yotes fight for a playoff berth, they shouldve been notified, given the respect they deserve, allow them to start seriously looking into alternate plans. Its possible the league is worried about collecting its money on the back end, possible they still hope for another year in Glendale, another 25M but I doubt it...

 

[RandR]

The NHL could have started negotiating with anyone as of Jan 1 2011 ( IIRC ), but regardless of the date, there is no way the NHL hasn't been actively negotiating with interests outside of Phoenix.

At a moments notice either the CoG ( by saying no to another $25M ) or a potential buyer ( by saying forget it, It's not going to work ) could pull the plug and the NHL has to be in a position to deal with that, even if it doesn't come to pass.

I said before a few posts back. There is not enough time between now and the start of the next season to "start" negotiations now, sell the team, and get ready for next season. The NHL has already made up it's mind as to whom they will sell the team to if the team has to move. We just are left guessing as to whom they picked.

I agree. Big question for me is the "if" part. I don't see enough evidence of a buyer willing to keep the Coyotes in Glendale for even 1 year, so it seems to me your "if" hinges on 2 things: 1) whether CoG can come up with another $20 or $25 million for next year and 2) whether that would be enough for the NHL to stay there for at least another year (knowing that they would still likely be swallowing another loss of $10-20 million).

 

[RandR]

Whats particularilly galling is that the NHL hasnt had the decency to notify the Mayor & Glendale. Its understandable why they havent done so on one level, however on several others that I believe supercede the potential harm at the gate as the Yotes fight for a playoff berth, they shouldve been notified, given the respect they deserve, allow them to start seriously looking into alternate plans.

Indeed. Especially if they expect to be notified about developments in Quebec City, they should be able to recognize that common courtesy in business relationships works both ways.

Its possible the league is worried about collecting its money on the back end, possible they still hope for another year in Glendale, another 25M but I doubt it...

Speaking of collecting money on the back end... if there any news about where the $61 million lawsuit that the league filed against Moyes in 2010 stands right now? I ask this because I wonder what the chances and timing are that they might collect any of that money, because it could alter what the league feels it wants to sell the team for.

 

[Howler Scores]

Speaking of collecting money on the back end... if there any news about where the $61 million lawsuit that the league filed against Moyes in 2010 stands right now? I ask this because I wonder what the chances and timing are that they might collect any of that money, because it could alter what the league feels it wants to sell the team for.

This was the latest settlement, its only from Glendale's side:

More than two years after the former Phoenix Coyotes owner filed the team into bankruptcy, Glendale could receive a $4.75 million settlement.

The settlement, if approved by a U.S Bankruptcy Court judge next month, will be far less than the $590 million Glendale had claimed as losses resulting from Jerry Moyes' abandonment of his lease at the city-owned Jobing.com Arena.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/artic...phoenix-coyotes-settlement.html#ixzz1qQwB4Rq8

 

[cbcwpg]

Whats particularilly galling is that the NHL hasnt had the decency to notify the Mayor & Glendale. Its understandable why they havent done so on one level, however on several others that I believe supercede the potential harm at the gate as the Yotes fight for a playoff berth, they shouldve been notified, given the respect they deserve, allow them to start seriously looking into alternate plans. Its possible the league is worried about collecting its money on the back end, possible they still hope for another year in Glendale, another 25M but I doubt it...

Can't agree more. Let's assume the worst for Phoenix, it's over. The team is not staying and has been sold to someone outside of Phoenix. Given that, at worst the NHL should be telling the CoG this and letting them prepare for the future without the Coyotes. Along with this the NHL should have told the CoG to keep quite for the sake of not destroying the gate ( because someone still has to pay for any losses ).

OK... This I can understand if this happened, but everytime the CoG is asked what's going on, instead of being told " no comment " or the NHL's best of " it's a work in progress " the Mayor says she doesn't have a clue whats happening. Giving the NHL the benefit of being somewhat humane, let's say the NHL has told Beasley it's over. Why on earth would Beasley not tell the Mayor and council? Is there something in the city bylaws that prevents him from teilling the Mayor? Has the NHL told Beasley, but told him to be quite?

Just guessing here, but to me this can only mean one of two things:

1- The NHL is truely still negotiating with someone to buy the team, but even this I have doubts because the Mayor would have at least known talks are still going on. But she's in the dark.

2- The NHL is seriously concerned that somehow that CoG might find a judge to believe that the NHL didn't do "all they could do" to keep the team in Glendale. As others have said, the CoG doesn't have a leg to stand on, but no never know until you try. But having said that, couldn't the CoG also say the NHL was negligent by NOT telling them it's over?

So confused trying to figure the NHL out.

 

[ducks2010]

This was the latest settlement, its only from Glendale's side:



Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/artic...phoenix-coyotes-settlement.html#ixzz1qQwB4Rq8

An expected $4.75 million coming to the COG? Is this the missing $5 million from the fiscal year 2012 budget? Somebody call Lieberman and tell him we found his $5 million.

 

[Killion]

Speaking of collecting money on the back end... if there any news about where the $61 million lawsuit that the league filed against Moyes in 2010 stands right now? I ask this because I wonder what the chances and timing are that they might collect any of that money, because it could alter what the league feels it wants to sell the team for.

This was hypothesized quite some time ago... apply the TNSE Relo Fee ($60M) and the Moyes Civil Settlement (app $61M) to paying down the NHL's LOC thats been used to buy & operate the team & presto, including cumulative losses ($140M + app $50M + in losses over & above the $50M provided by Glendale); your well within the strike zone, facilitating a local sale.... reality however has a way of interfering with the best laid theoretical plans.

The NHL's not going to realize $61M (see link up-page) from the Moyes suit, not even close, and to the best of everyones knowledge they did not apply the $60M Thrashers Relo Fee to paying down their LOC & thus provide incentive to purchase the Coyotes with a major price-drop. So, even if we imagine the NHL did receive a favourable judgement & $61M from Moyes, then guess what?. Based on their track record with the Relo Fee, the money wouldnt be applied to the Coyotes sticker price, just a common sensical thing to be doing in my opinion, the price as we are all acutely aware beyond reason. Both the TNSE Relo Fee & Moyes' "potential" settlement are both what Id call "found money". Wasnt forecast, budgeted, promised, spoken for, "winfalls". Use it to pay your debt at the bank & save the franchise.... how Bettman or Daly can say with a straight face that "price is not an obstacle" just defies logic.

 

[GuelphStormer]

The good mayor has announced she is not seeking re-election.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2012/03/27/20120327glendale-mayor-elaine-scruggs-will-not-seek-6th-term-brk.html

 

[Dado]

...the Mayor says she doesn't have a clue whats happening.

What politicians - leaders, in general, really - say in public is rarely the same as what they say in private.

The fact that the council members are weighing the Coyotes against refurbing a neighbourhood swimming pool suggests to me they do have a reasonable understanding of the team's current status.

 

[Blitz]

The good mayor has announced she is not seeking re-election.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2012/03/27/20120327glendale-mayor-elaine-scruggs-will-not-seek-6th-term-brk.html

Probably a good call for Scruggs if she intends to save face...

 

[Roughneck]

The good mayor has announced she is not seeking re-election.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2012/03/27/20120327glendale-mayor-elaine-scruggs-will-not-seek-6th-term-brk.html

If she were really smart she'd move to Scottsdale.

 

[cheswick]

The good mayor has announced she is not seeking re-election.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2012/03/27/20120327glendale-mayor-elaine-scruggs-will-not-seek-6th-term-brk.html

Phil Liberman for Glendale mayor 2012? One can dream

 

[Whileee]

This was hypothesized quite some time ago... apply the TNSE Relo Fee ($60M) and the Moyes Civil Settlement (app $61M) to paying down the NHL's LOC thats been used to buy & operate the team & presto, including cumulative losses ($140M + app $50M + in losses over & above the $50M provided by Glendale); your well within the strike zone, facilitating a local sale.... reality however has a way of interfering with the best laid theoretical plans.

The NHL's not going to realize $61M (see link up-page) from the Moyes suit, not even close, and to the best of everyones knowledge they did not apply the $60M Thrashers Relo Fee to paying down their LOC & thus provide incentive to purchase the Coyotes with a major price-drop. So, even if we imagine the NHL did receive a favourable judgement & $61M from Moyes, then guess what?. Based on their track record with the Relo Fee, the money wouldnt be applied to the Coyotes sticker price, just a common sensical thing to be doing in my opinion, the price as we are all acutely aware beyond reason. Both the TNSE Relo Fee & Moyes' "potential" settlement are both what Id call "found money". Wasnt forecast, budgeted, promised, spoken for, "winfalls". Use it to pay your debt at the bank & save the franchise.... how Bettman or Daly can say with a straight face that "price is not an obstacle" just defies logic.

I agree, Killion. Price relative to perceived value is perhaps the most important stumbling block to a local sale. Consider that the City of Glendale has shown a willingness to offer up fabulous lease terms at a wonderful arena. The fact that no owner has stepped forward, even when the asking was likely closer to $140 million suggests that there remains considerable skepticism among potential owners about the health of the market for NHL hockey.

The NHL certainly seems to have had the financial wherewithal to facilitate a local sale at a much lower price point, but I suppose one has to consider the precedent it might set. The NHL almost certainly doesn't want to be seen as willing to get a distressed owner off the hook by paying more than market value and then selling at a discount. It seems plausible that the other owners have clamped down on Bettman's latitude on price for a Coyotes sale.

 

[Whileee]

The good mayor has announced she is not seeking re-election.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2012/03/27/20120327glendale-mayor-elaine-scruggs-will-not-seek-6th-term-brk.html

Does anyone know anything about potential mayoral candidates, and what their position might be on substantial subsidies to the Coyotes?

 

[EvilCoop]

Cactus Phil is meeting with tea baggers at Denny's tonight. I hope he doesn't charge his Dinner Grand Slam to the city...

 

[MaskedSonja]

The good mayor has announced she is not seeking re-election.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2012/03/27/20120327glendale-mayor-elaine-scruggs-will-not-seek-6th-term-brk.html

Well it will be interesting now to see how the 25 mil situation goes-nothing stopping her now from her putting her vote to yes another 25 mil followed by a "not my problem anymore" mindset.

On the other hand, she could say "no" even more now, and not have to worry about politcal fallout as it would pertain to keeping whatever interested parties in saying "yes" happy.

 

[Killion]

The NHL certainly seems to have had the financial wherewithal to facilitate a local sale at a much lower price point, but I suppose one has to consider the precedent it might set. The NHL almost certainly doesn't want to be seen as willing to get a distressed owner off the hook by paying more than market value and then selling at a discount.

Sure, but its okay for the guys in Tampa to take a bath when they sold to Vinik; perfectly fine for ASG to take a hit when Bettman demands they shave the price so he can extract as much as possible with the relo fee out of TNSE's budgeted $170M for a franchise; for the owners of the Blues to sell the Blues, AMC @ Scottrade, the AHL Franchise & the Peabody for about 50 cents on the dollar.

So long as the NHL itself manages to extort as much as possible from an obviously beyond distressed "asset", no worries huh?...

Well it will be interesting now to see how the 25 mil situation goes-nothing stopping her now from her putting her vote to yes another 25 mil followed by a "not my problem anymore" mindset.

The thought did cross my mind TL. Sometimes its hard to keep pace with ones cynicism...

 

[RandR]

This was the latest settlement, its only from Glendale's side:

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/artic...phoenix-coyotes-settlement.html#ixzz1qQwB4Rq8

Thank you for posting that. (and to Killion for his answer to my question)

Aside from the fact that there is only about $10 million left to be squeezed out of the remnants of the Coyotes, the following caught my attention:

The settlement, if approved by a U.S Bankruptcy Court judge next month, will be far less than the $590 million Glendale had claimed as losses resulting from Jerry Moyes' abandonment of his lease at the city-owned Jobing.com Arena.

The biggest chunk of the claim was premised on damage to the city should the team leave.

I know that it would be common practice to overestimate damages in such a claim, we may not know what portion of that $590 million is made up by its "biggest chunk", and we may not know how many years that $590 million is spread out over. However, given such a large number, it seems to me that:

1. the CoG was sold or deluded themselves into overestimating the viability of NHL hockey in Glendale and especially the scale of the economic impact the city would gain from it

2. the CoG may think that subsidizing the Coyotes to the tune of $20-25 million a year is worth it even if a new owner isn't found for another year or more? (ie- because the annual damages are even greater)

 

[JMT21]

A quote from Phil on the Mayor's pending departure.

Glendale Councilman Phil Lieberman: "There's so much pressure on being a mayor in the city. She couldn't have survived another term. She wouldn't have been re-elected. She was looking for an easy out. She doesn't have to worry about a balanced budget, the Phoenix Coyotes or about the casino. She is free to do her own thing. She did serve a long time. She was in many aspects an outstanding mayor although she and I never got along."

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/community/...seek-6th-term-brk.html#comments#ixzz1qRgGFojs




.MMMMM she no longer has to worry about the Phoenix Coyotes... Absolutely NOTHING stopping her from voting YES to another 25M to cover team losses next season.

When would a vote on the next 25M take place.. assuming there will be one???

If the COG chose to vote for the 25M... does the NHL need to honor it ?

 

[Whileee]

A quote from Phil on the Mayor's pending departure.

Glendale Councilman Phil Lieberman: "There's so much pressure on being a mayor in the city. She couldn't have survived another term. She wouldn't have been re-elected. She was looking for an easy out. She doesn't have to worry about a balanced budget, the Phoenix Coyotes or about the casino. She is free to do her own thing. She did serve a long time. She was in many aspects an outstanding mayor although she and I never got along."

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/community/...seek-6th-term-brk.html#comments#ixzz1qRgGFojs




.MMMMM she no longer has to worry about the Phoenix Coyotes... Absolutely NOTHING stopping her from voting YES to another 25M to cover team losses next season.

When would a vote on the next 25M take place.. assuming there will be one???

If the COG chose to vote for the 25M... does the NHL need to honor it ?

If the NHL wants Mayor Scruggs to vote for another $25 million for next year, then perhaps they should start to treat her with a bit less callousness. She certainly doesn't seem to be carrying much positive feelings towards the NHL these days.