Phoenix XL - Rich Man's World

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Whileee

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May 29, 2010
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Note; as per Greg Jamison, sure, Im assuming he's still circling, however obviously something just aint right, and as reported/rumored, it seems moneys' an issue. Not a good harbinger of things to come if he's up against it already as it'll take some serious capitol to hit the ground running in Glendale. If he doesnt have the coin & Reinsdorf is waiting around, I wouldnt be asking him to cool his jets in the waiting room, Id be getting a deal done or telling both parties to go away while dialing PKP up in QC.

I would have thought that if the NHL contemplated lowering the purchase price they would have done so by now, and finalized a deal with Reinsdorf or Jamison that transferred the current lease and let them sort things out with Glendale, and offered an opportunity to relocate if things don't work out.

But perhaps that is more complicated than it seems. The prospect of relocation if things stay sour in Glendale assumes that there is a lucrative destination for relocation. QC is the most obvious, but would Peladeau et al. allow Reinsdorf or Jamison to waltz into Quebec with an NHL team in tow? I doubt it. S. Ontario? I doubt that the NHL are ready to make a commitment to anyone with regard to that maneuver, and they would want a lot of coin to do so. So, perhaps Reinsdorf and Jamison are thinking that there isn't a clearly viable option for relocation that would recoup substantial losses should they continue to occur over the next several years. Clearly, paying even just $100 million up front, and then losing a bunch of money over the next few years might not be worth it if the end game is relocation to a place like Kansas City, which doesn't offer the same promise of riches as a market like QC or S. Ont.

So maybe this boils down to whether Glendale can find a way to subsidize losses. If not, then consider this question. Does it seem like a good investment to pay as little as $100 million to purchase the Coyotes if you have to cover most of the losses for several years, with the only respite being a relocation to KC or some other second tier market if things don't work out?
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
Nov 26, 2004
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This is a classic example of starting an argument by trying to put 'words' (or 'positions') in your perceived opponent's mouth, but I'll respond to some of it just for fun.

The NHL is American and NOT Canadian at all because of the location of the NHL head office? Really? Tell that to the 50% plus of the players that are Canadian. Tell the NHLPA that they should relocate their head office to New York. Same with the HHOF. Tell that to the vast majority of coaching staff, GMs, on ice officials, scouts that are Canadians. Tell that to the people that work in the NHL offices in Toronto or Montreal. Or the people that run the 7 soon to be 8 NHL teams in Canada. I could go on an on. The league itself was founded in a Montreal hotel conference room.

You are saying that the NHL is an American league or organization. I think the truth is that the NHL is a bi-national league with a heavy Canadian influence/presence. Through out its history the NHL has had 1/4rd to 1/3rd of its teams located in Canada, despite the fact that Canada has 1/10th the population of the USA.


I agree with this, GHOST. I like joking around with my Leafs friends that the best braintrust in the NHL is in Detroit, and that they are "our Canadians, and we're keepin' 'em."
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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Does it seem like a good investment to pay as little as $100 million to purchase the Coyotes if you have to cover most of the losses for several years, with the only respite being a relocation to KC or some other second tier market if things don't work out?

Yep, that certainly is an interesting question and a bit of a conundrum alrighty. Assuming a bad case scenario whereby you buy the team for $100-110M or whatever, and despite every best effort your just not seeing any light at the end of the tunnel in 3-4yrs. By then, who knows?. PKP Id assume wants to own, not "work with" another owner; he's already pretty much got his name on the new arenas management contract. So lets say Wang wants out of LI, cant find a local owner to pay his asking price, sells to QC?. That markets gone. Good luck with a Toronto2 or sadly, even a sale or move to Hamilton. The guy in Houston seems disengaged. Who knows what might transpire in Seattle with Levin and theres certainly no Welcome Wagon awaiting in Kansas City. Hartford needs a new building. Where ya gonna go?. Youd almost need to build into the sale agreement with the league X, Y or Z destinations, no questions asked, and in thinking it, much less putting it to paper your halfway there before youve even started in Phoenix!...
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
Nov 26, 2004
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The NHL's recognized as a "major league sport" in Sunrise, Tampa, Phoenix, Carolina. The media & fans know the difference. Perhaps your analogy is just a matter of semantics as your argument on that points' solid enough. Minor league teams in the ECHL & AHL do enjoy success in markets that potentially are quite capable of hosting an NHL franchise however due to the scale of "major league hockey" from a business perspective it'd most assuredly be an "iffy" proposition. That would of course include several "traditional" markets; Cleveland for example with a long & substantial history in the game.

Oh yeah? Recognized by whom? You just waltz in and say so, so now it's true? There are no semantics here, Killion, just a refusal by some of you guys to accept the reality. It 'may' get there, and the price may be too high for some to wait, but it does not get big league coverage.

The media and fans recognize there's some kind of sport and league going on to which they pay very little attention. Just stop with this line of defense, as it's unbecoming of the level of understanding you have on these matters. It is NOT the situation on the ground. You seem to keep mixing up what you think or want to evolve in these areas for the actual situation.



Theres no question the NHL was hasty in its rush to expand, some of it brought on to ward off WHA incursions (NYI, Atlanta Flames simply set-up to balance conference play), other instances based on chequebook marketing, friends of friends & whatnot. Left to their own devices, many of these franchises (Oakland Seals, KC Scouts, the Coyotes) were run into the ground, relo's, amalgamations, contractions followed. Bottom line is that its all just natural order. If the league leaves the franchises to fend for themselves as was the case in the past, its not surprising to see failures abound. It may well be too late to save the Coyotes from relocation, the file being so badly handled by Gluckstern, Burke, Ellman, Moyes, the COG and the NHL that recoveries simply too expensive a proposition. Left it too long, the hour far too late. If your the NHL, do you;

A) Use the TNSE relo (purely speculative yes, but a practical solution & fairly common sensical use for that money; $2M per team is meaningless) fee to paydown your LOC to effect a sale through discounting, possibly provide terms or allow JR/GJ to assume your credit facilities and the AMUL or;

B) Sell it for relo at app. $200M ($140M sale price & $60M relo fee) to obviously PKP & QC, cut your losses & like Atlanta, hopefully re-visit the issues of a team playing out of those markets maybe a decade down the road?.

If 'A', then I believe a deal wouldve been done by now. If as reported Jamisons' having trouble raising the funds, thats not good, because he's going to have to pour a lot more into the club over the next few years & if he's short on capitol coming in?... If Reinsdorfs' a fallback from Jamison, well then, why?. Why mess around with Jamison?. He doesnt have the money RIGHT NOW & you needed a sale, like yesterday. Either bite the bullet and get it done with Kaites/Reinsdorf or get on the phone to Peladeau.

What is natural about absolute failure? Misjudging a situation so badly that someone loses tens up upon hundreds of millions of dollars. Heck, they even locked out the players for an entire year so they could pretend that was the root cause of their woes.


I'm honestly thinking their best recourse right now is contraction. If they don't have a soft landing in place, there is no reason whatsoever to sell a team (assuming they dropped the price and someone took it and COG still gave up too much money) and link it to a development that is in foreclosure and unable to get even a sniff from anyone with money left.


Who could possibly be convinced to sink hundreds of millions into situation created by a bubble economy? There is nothing holding any of this up.
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
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Yep, that certainly is an interesting question and a bit of a conundrum alrighty. Assuming a bad case scenario whereby you buy the team for $100-110M or whatever, and despite every best effort your just not seeing any light at the end of the tunnel in 3-4yrs. By then, who knows?. PKP Id assume wants to own, not "work with" another owner; he's already pretty much got his name on the new arenas management contract. So lets say Wang wants out of LI, cant find a local owner to pay his asking price, sells to QC?. That markets gone. Good luck with a Toronto2 or sadly, even a sale or move to Hamilton. The guy in Houston seems disengaged. Who knows what might transpire in Seattle with Levin and theres certainly no Welcome Wagon awaiting in Kansas City. Hartford needs a new building. Where ya gonna go?. Youd almost need to build into the sale agreement with the league X, Y or Z destinations, no questions asked, and in thinking it, much less putting it to paper your halfway there before youve even started in Phoenix!...


There is no low lying fruit left--- except in the GTA.


Teams are being given away through bankruptcy proceedings, everyone happy if a new owner just assumes enough debt, and someone is supposed to pay $200 million for a team in Glendale, lose $30 million for at least 3-5 yrs, and then recoup all of that by selling to an owner in KC or Vegas or even QC? Those numbers don't work out. ;)
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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Oh yeah? Recognized by whom? You just waltz in and say so, so now it's true? There are no semantics here, Killion...

Well I never!. :laugh:

Of course Im "paying it forward" Fugu. The medias' lack of coverage has as much to do with their own systemic populist problems as the league has (along with any number of clubs) in their ill mannered media relations & communications. Of course its a problem, and your dancing analogy is quite appropriate; they've been hooking up with the wrong partners and falling over each other feet since about 1917. I mean, someone should tell them that a Choreographed Line of Foxtrotters doesnt quite cut it at a Kid Rock Concert. Who the Hell wants to watch that?!.

Now, are you suggesting Jerry Moyes was just an innocent bystander, the victim of a drive-by?. That a Donald Trump wannabee like Steve Ellman or Carpetbaggers like Gluckstern & Burke were somehow taken advantage of by the NHL?. Pllllease. You can lay a lot of garbage at the NHL's doorstep but not this one. Was the NHL negligent in its handling of this franchise virtually since 1996?. Absolutely. Do they too have blood on their hands as a result?. You betcha. No one deserves exoneration. Its a case of Murder on the Orient Express. Every passenger on the train is guilty.

As for Contraction, well, in as much as that makes complete sense, I dont see the BOG's voting that one up, not unless they immediately turn around & sell an Expansion Franchise to PKP & QC for $200M+ in order to recoup their losses in Arizona. Why do that when you could just sell him the team for the same price?. Or are you thinking they might be able to squeeze even more out of him based on an Expansion Fee?. Nice. There may be a job waiting for you at league offices... I dont see how, not with precedents set in Tampa, Atlanta & Dallas. If someone wants to buy a distressed asset in the Yotes & give it a whirl, I say go for it. A lot can change in a year or three, a market that provides a "soft landing" can be found if relo's required. Call me delusional. The Boys just gotz too much Hubris in him for his own good. G'head.

Heard it plenty already I can assure you...
 

RandR

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May 15, 2011
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From Elliotte Friedman's 30 Thoughts, here is an update on Phoenix:

3. Phoenix: The NHL wants to keep the Coyotes in Arizona and will likely adopt the "Atlanta timeline," ie. waiting until the last possible minute before announcing any move. It's been reported the four potential sites are Seattle, Las Vegas, Quebec City and Kansas City. (Technically, the league can't talk to another city until Jan. 1). If it is one of the first two, the team wouldn't have to switch conferences. If it's Quebec, you're looking at the Montreal grouping. Kansas City? No idea.

Travel key to realignment + 30 Thoughts

Does anyone know the reason why the league can't talk to another city until January 1? Is this an agreement or promise made with one of the prospective buyers (you know, the people who might buy the team for a song and a dance if they had to keep it in Phoenix) or the City of Glendale?
 

GordonGraham

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Sep 12, 2009
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From Elliotte Friedman's 30 Thoughts, here is an update on Phoenix:

3. Phoenix: The NHL wants to keep the Coyotes in Arizona and will likely adopt the "Atlanta timeline," ie. waiting until the last possible minute before announcing any move. It's been reported the four potential sites are Seattle, Las Vegas, Quebec City and Kansas City. (Technically, the league can't talk to another city until Jan. 1). If it is one of the first two, the team wouldn't have to switch conferences. If it's Quebec, you're looking at the Montreal grouping. Kansas City? No idea.


Travel key to realignment + 30 Thoughts

From those 4 cities is it fair to assume

Quebec city temporary old building = yes
owner =yes
new building =yes

Las vegas temporary old building = yes
owner =no
new building =no

Seattle temporary old building =maybe
owner =no
new building =no

Kansas city new building = yes
owner =no
 

GKJ

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Feb 27, 2002
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We're only assuming that Vegas, Seattle, and KC don't have owners, because no one is talking. It's well known that Bettman has a personal gag order on any prospective owners interested in relocation.

If those three plus Quebec is a 'Final Four,' owners have to be lined up. Even if the league announced they want to move the Coyotes to Las Vegas, someone will buy them. Vegas is just too Vegas to not have it be.
 

Ugmo

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Oct 24, 2011
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"It's been reported the four potential sites are..."

What does it's been reported mean? He could just be putting together all the same rumors that have been discussed here. Vegas and Seattle seem like they'd be riddled with negative issues that Quebec doesn't have.

Plus, we have seen quotes from actual sources within the league that the league's priority is to get a team in Quebec. If I were a betting man, I'd sure be betting against Vegas right now.
 

MAROONSRoad

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Feb 24, 2007
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From Elliotte Friedman's 30 Thoughts, here is an update on Phoenix:

3. Phoenix: The NHL wants to keep the Coyotes in Arizona and will likely adopt the "Atlanta timeline," ie. waiting until the last possible minute before announcing any move. It's been reported the four potential sites are Seattle, Las Vegas, Quebec City and Kansas City. (Technically, the league can't talk to another city until Jan. 1). If it is one of the first two, the team wouldn't have to switch conferences. If it's Quebec, you're looking at the Montreal grouping. Kansas City? No idea.

An "Atlanta timeline"? In retrospect, does anyone actually believe that the 'timeline' as scripted by the NHL and presented by some in the media for the relocation of the Thrashers to Winnipeg? That the NHL and TNSE weren't aware of the very strong likelihood -- if not certainty --of a relocation months and months before the supposed official 'negotiations' were taking place?

That's point one. Point 2 is that TNSE/Winnipeg was a special case in that they were one of the few organizations/places in North America that could pull off a relocation of an NHL team that fast. They already had a full staff in place running an AHL team -- almost to the standard of an NHL team -- and the MTS Centre as a sports and entertainment venue. They had people that head up all the various departments -- ticket sales, corporate sponsorships, HR, financial, players relations, etc. They had a fan base that they didn't need to advertise to in order to sell tickets. They had their own AHL farm team, team doctors, Etc. Now, some of these things can be inherited from the Coyotes, but still...

And even then, with all those advantages, they were working overtime all summer to pull it off.

It seems unlikely that an NHL team could be relocated to Las Vegas or even Seattle at the last minute -- they don't even have proper venues. At this time last year TNSE was already renovating the MTS Centre for an NHL team. They had already built a new players training facility. Anyone expecting an NHL team for next year has to begin plans well in advance and have a good idea they will be getting a team - in some cases, they would have to know for sure.

For these reasons, I think the NHL has to choose a new location and new owner very soon -- most likely it has already done so. And I am fairly certain the location will be QC and the owners will be PKP/Quebecor. It would be stunning if the GTA got the team at this point. Seattle or KC more so. Las Vegas -- seriously?!? :laugh:
 
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Jesus Christ Horburn

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Aug 22, 2008
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FWIW, Dreger mentioned on TSN that the BOG has an unofficial contingency alignment prepared in case the Coyotes move to Quebec City. He didn't mention any other cities though.
 

Bob1321

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Feb 13, 2008
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FWIW, Dreger mentioned on TSN that the BOG has an unofficial contingency alignment prepared in case the Coyotes move to Quebec City. He didn't mention any other cities though.

garylawless gary lawless
One governor told us heading into meeting - "Phoenix isn't going anywhere. There's no where for them to go." #winnipegjets


They want to kill the rumours ;)
 

Puckschmuck*

Guest
Las Vegas -- seriously?!? :laugh:

Las Vegas :facepalm:

We are talking about city that has little sports history to it, and as a result has no professional sport team, other than University/College sports and even that appears minimal at best. Now, knowing the troubles Phoenix has had with the NHL, does anyone actually expect a team to do well in Vegas? I would think that if any of the "big four" were to try and crack the Vegas market, that hockey would likely be last on the list. Even football or basketball would have a hell of a time competing with the gambling/entertainment scene in Vegas.
 

Nordskull

WAITING FOR NORDS
Sep 29, 2011
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Ah, Vegas! Money! Chicks! Limousines! Hockey?

Ice hockey?

Since the beginning of this place, this name always been brought back in any sort of rumours...

Don't know why, I feel as I am typing, Quebec city is now back in the league. Hope I am not wrong.
 
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dronald

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Mar 4, 2011
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Las Vegas :facepalm:

We are talking about city that has little sports history to it, and as a result has no professional sport team, other than University/College sports and even that appears minimal at best. Now, knowing the troubles Phoenix has had with the NHL, does anyone actually expect a team to do well in Vegas? I would think that if any of the "big four" were to try and crack the Vegas market, that hockey would likely be last on the list. Even football or basketball would have a hell of a time competing with the gambling/entertainment scene in Vegas.

Besides, LV is a desert and I really can't see Hockey working in a desert. I guess they could try it though.
 

Jaeger03

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Nov 14, 2008
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An "Atlanta timeline"? In retrospect, does anyone actually believe that the 'timeline' as scripted by the NHL and presented by some in the media for the relocation of the Thrashers to Winnipeg? That the NHL and TNSE weren't aware of the very strong likelihood -- if not certainty --of a relocation months and months before the supposed official 'negotiations' were taking place?

That's point one. Point 2 is that TNSE/Winnipeg was a special case in that they were one of the few organizations/places in North America that could pull off a relocation of an NHL team that fast. They already had a full staff in place running an AHL team -- almost to the standard of an NHL team -- and the MTS Centre as a sports and entertainment venue. They had people that head up all the various departments -- ticket sales, corporate sponsorships, HR, financial, players relations, etc. They had a fan base that they didn't need to advertise to in order to sell tickets. They had their own AHL farm team, team doctors, Etc. Now, some of these things can be inherited from the Coyotes, but still...

And even then, with all those advantages, they were working overtime all summer to pull it off.

...

For these reasons, I think the NHL has to choose a new location and new owner very soon -- most likely it has already done so. And I fairly certain the location will be QC and the owners will be PKP/Quebecor.

Those are very important points in my opinion. It's not realistic for a team to come into being in May. It's not fair to the new owners and it's a crippling factor from the get-go. I agree that whoever is Plan B for the Coyotes will almost certainly know that by now and be fully appraised of developments. I definitely buy into the "wink wink, nudge nudge" theory that QC is on the docket. It's the only option that makes sense.

That said, with the new alignments being tossed around, the NHL is definitely going to look to expand to 32 teams as soon as feasible to even out the conferences. Hello Seattle and ...?? Just a matter of time.
 

GordonGraham

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Sep 12, 2009
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What building? UNLV Thomas & Mac? ECHL Wrangler's home arena (seats ~5k)?

Owner - there has been discussion that Jerry Bruckheimer might be "the guy".


3 possible temporary venues i doubt the 1st 2 would allow 45 nights for NHL hockey

MGM grand can sit 16800
mandalya 12000
Thomas and mack 16000
 

HansH

Unwelcome Spectre
Feb 2, 2005
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Las Vegas :facepalm:

We are talking about city that has little sports history to it, and as a result has no professional sport team, other than University/College sports and even that appears minimal at best.
For the love of PETE people, can we PLEASE try to maintain a little understanding about the difference between "professional" and "Major League"?!?!?

Las Vegas has had a PROFESSIONAL hockey team 15 of the last 19 years - six years in the IHL, and currently in the ECHL team's ninth season. They have had PROFESSIONAL baseball for much longer than that.

What they lack is not PROFESSIONAL sports, but MAJOR LEAGUE sports. It makes a freaking difference, people -- let's TRY to be accurate here. It's not that hard.
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
Nov 26, 2004
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garylawless gary lawless
One governor told us heading into meeting - "Phoenix isn't going anywhere. There's no where for them to go." #winnipegjets


They want to kill the rumours ;)

I actually believe that as of this moment, there is nowhere for them to go.


Like GHOST mentioned above and I mentioned earlier, Atlanta may have caught some people by surprise, but those of us who entertained the rumors that just wouldn't go away when coupled to an active upgrading of MTS and owners we KNEW were waiting for a team and who had the MONEY, no, no surprise at all.

None of that is happening at the moment, and I don't know that QC can be ready that soon.


With regard to Vegas? Seriously. The economy is in worse shape than Phoenix, and you have to import Hollywood types to find an owner. Why anyone in the NHL ever thought Vegas was a good idea in before the economy fell apart will remain as one of the great mysteries of the universe.

Futhermore, if KC had an owner lined up, Winnipeg wouldn't have a team right now. AEG would have seen to that.
 

CBJ goalie

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May 19, 2005
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garylawless gary lawless
One governor told us heading into meeting - "Phoenix isn't going anywhere. There's no where for them to go." #winnipegjets


They want to kill the rumours ;)

A pretty ignorant thing for that governor to say - is he aware that
a) the COG isn't covering losses anymore?
b) the NHL is not owning the Coyotes after this season?
c)the Coyotes are losing $30M a season?
d) the NHL & especially the NHLPA would never allow contraction?

Therefore, something is happening to this team -someone will buy this team when it goes on the market.
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
Nov 26, 2004
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A pretty ignorant thing for that governor to say - is he aware that
a) the COG isn't covering losses anymore?
b) the NHL is not owning the Coyotes after this season?
c)the Coyotes are losing $30M a season?
d) the NHL & especially the NHLPA would never allow contraction?

Therefore, something is happening to this team -someone will buy this team when it goes on the market.


Why is it ignorant? I'm sure he knows the NHL doesn't want to cover costs one more year, and Glendale has already said they won't won't cover any more.

NHLPA has nothing to say about a contraction. It's an ownership issue, just like expansion or relocation.

If a governor did say it, that means there are no secret owners behind door number one, two or three.
 

GordonGraham

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Sep 12, 2009
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I actually believe that as of this moment, there is nowhere for them to go.


Like GHOST mentioned above and I mentioned earlier, Atlanta may have caught some people by surprise, but those of us who entertained the rumors that just wouldn't go away when coupled to an active upgrading of MTS and owners we KNEW were waiting for a team and who had the MONEY, no, no surprise at all.

None of that is happening at the moment, and I don't know that QC can be ready that soon.


Futhermore, if KC had an owner lined up, Winnipeg wouldn't have a team right now. AEG would have seen to that.

But Quebec city does have that owner with money, he's on the record on numerous occasions, the city already has the plan and is ready to renovate the old barn as soon as they get the go ahead, theres not much to do (new boards, glasses, a/c and dressing rooms)the budget is ready and they already figure in some extra money cause this will have to be done quicker than usual. All the rest the seats, boxes, scoreboard, press area is more than ok for a couple of seasons
 

Material Defender

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Mar 22, 2011
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But Quebec city does have that owner with money, he's on the record on numerous occasions, the city already has the plan and is ready to renovate the old barn as soon as they get the go ahead, theres not much to do (new boards, glasses, a/c and dressing rooms)the budget is ready and they already figure in some extra money cause this will have to be done quicker than usual. All the rest the seats, boxes, scoreboard, press area is more than ok for a couple of seasons

Agree: new boards, glasses and a/c are already planned for next spring.
 
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