Phoenix XL - Rich Man's World

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

Looks to be about 13,000 or so for tonight against the Blackhawks.

For the Blackhawks???

As a Coyote fan, I am personally disgusted at this point.

Me too.

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

As anyone who has followed this saga and the Thrashers saga knows, TSN has connections with the NHL (specifically Dreger with Bill Daly). If they wrote this, it's because they know something is more than likely forthcoming.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the NHL has another December 31st-ish deadline to get this thing done, which is why TSN anticipates the news to ramp up soon.

 

[Killion]

This is going to be tricky, I think.

I really cant see them paying out another $25M after this season Whileee. The optics' alone would just be bad combined with the very real possibility of a GW challenge. They, along with either Reinsdorf or Jamison are going to have to do their due dilly & come up with a sampling of what other municipalities with similar sized facilities with an NHL franchise & what their Arena Management firms are being paid; find a happy land. Secondly, Glendales' got a municipal election next year and if Scruggs' either doesnt run or goes down to defeat (along with some of the Councilors) we could have yet another serious game changer, which absolutely means this has got to get done & fast.

 

[Whileee]

I really cant see them paying out another $25M after this season Whileee. The optics' alone would just be bad combined with the very real possibility of a GW challenge. They, along with either Reinsdorf or Jamison are going to have to do their due dilly & come up with a sampling of what other municipalities with similar sized facilities with an NHL franchise & what their Arena Management firms are being paid; find a happy land. Secondly, Glendales' got a municipal election next year and if Scruggs' either doesnt run or goes down to defeat (along with some of the Councilors) we could have yet another serious game changer, which absolutely means this has got to get done & fast.

I tend to agree, but then what are the alternatives? Reinsdorf said he "stands by his MOU", which showed that he thought that it would be okay to pay about $100 million for the purchase, as long as there was another $97 million in subsidies (via the CFD) over the next 5 seasons. Otherwise, he wanted out.

It is hard to imagine what might have changed in the past 18 months to make the franchise look so much more attractive financially, especially with Westgate foreclosing. Maybe he'll see some boffo opportunity from a real estate perspective, but good grief, haven't we seen enough of the "real estate play with a hockey team thrown in ploy"???

Whoever buys this team better have a business plan that is sound based on the hockey team and the arena, and the revenue that they generate.

 

[TheLegend]

I really cant see them paying out another $25M after this season Whileee. The optics' alone would just be bad combined with the very real possibility of a GW challenge. They, along with either Reinsdorf or Jamison are going to have to do their due dilly & come up with a sampling of what other municipalities with similar sized facilities with an NHL franchise & what their Arena Management firms are being paid; find a happy land. Secondly, Glendales' got a municipal election next year and if Scruggs' either doesnt run or goes down to defeat (along with some of the Councilors) we could have yet another serious game changer, which absolutely means this has got to get done & fast.

...and on that note.

The local Tea Party has their boy lined up.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2011/10/17/20111017glendale-walt-opaska-mayor-candidacy.html

 

[Killion]

Maybe he'll see some boffo opportunity from a real estate perspective, but good grief, haven't we seen enough of the "real estate play with a hockey team thrown in ploy"???

He did say that of course, but that was then & this is now so ya, Id' say there are some
"boffo" (Rupert at Seaside or Noddy Visits The Toyshop?) real estate deals available.

I never get tired of reading those err, real estate/sports stories Whileee. You?...

 

[Killion]

...and on that note. The local Tea Party has their boy lined up.
http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2011/10/17/20111017glendale-walt-opaska-mayor-candidacy.html

Interesting. Mayor Scruggs' has yet to announce her intentions. Opaskas a political neophyte, Intellectual Property Lawyer, probably a pretty smart guy, and based on his comments & Tea Party status vehemently opposed to anything remotely approaching a subsidy to the arena let alone the team. I see my favorite, Phil Lieberman, has a challenger as well.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

...and on that note.

The local Tea Party has their boy lined up.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2011/10/17/20111017glendale-walt-opaska-mayor-candidacy.html

He's got my vote !!!! He sounds like a good man.

"He said he would work to cut taxes, put more police officers on the streets and restore city services, such as library hours." instead of in the BoG pockets.

"I rikey. I rikey arot!!!!"

 

[Fehr Time*]

He's got my vote !!!! He sounds like a good man.

"He said he would work to cut taxes, put more police officers on the streets and restore city services, such as library hours." instead of in the BoG pockets.

"I rikey. I rikey arot!!!!"

It is crazy that a city could give out huge handouts to an entity like the NHL but cut services without blinking an eye.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

It is crazy that a city could give out huge handouts to an entity like the NHL but cut services without blinking an eye.

I agree. Children do not have a safe place to study after school so a handful of fans can have hockey. Shameful!!!

 

[AllByDesign]

It is crazy that a city could give out huge handouts to an entity like the NHL but cut services without blinking an eye.

I agree. Children do not have a safe place to study after school so a handful of fans can have hockey. Shameful!!!

Now now... In all fairness, this hypothetical "kid" we are talking about could scrounge up enough change to buy a ticket to a Coyotes game, and have enough peace and quiet to do his homework at "The Job"



<I kid... I kid>

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

Now now... In all fairness, this hypothetical "kid" we are talking about could scrounge up enough change to buy a ticket to a Coyotes game, and have enough peace and quiet to do his homework at "The Job"



<I kid... I kid>

I laugh...I laugh.

As Homer Simpson would say... It's funny cause it's true.

 

[TheLegend]

Interesting. Mayor Scruggs' has yet to announce her intentions. Opaskas a political neophyte, Intellectual Property Lawyer, probably a pretty smart guy, and based on his comments & Tea Party status vehemently opposed to anything remotely approaching a subsidy to the arena let alone the team. I see my favorite, Phil Lieberman, has a challenger as well.

Well Killion my friend.... he's also pro-casino which fits in with the TP crowd because most of them need a new place to meet after Marie Callender's went under.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

I really cant see them paying out another $25M after this season Whileee. The optics' alone would just be bad combined with the very real possibility of a GW challenge. They, along with either Reinsdorf or Jamison are going to have to do their due dilly & come up with a sampling of what other municipalities with similar sized facilities with an NHL franchise & what their Arena Management firms are being paid; find a happy land.

You think they haven't done that? The NHL could supply them with that information (in basic outline if not in specific detail) in a matter of minutes.

The other thing which I think you are a bit out of touch with Killion is that very few NHL teams get paid to by the public entity owner of an arena to "manage" the arena for a municipality. You've really got this all backwards. The public entity is subsidizing the pro sports franchise by furnishing it with a free or next to free arena. In return the city gets a pro sports franchise and the supposed direct and indirect spin off benefits. The NHL team gets most of the revenue from the facility for hockey and non-hockey events, naming rights, concessions, etc. In return they manage the building for themselves NOT the city. That is, the NHL team takes the subsidized infrastructure and makes a go of it, typically paying some rent to the public entity which owns the arena. The NHL team holds the master lease and rights to profits (if any) and risk of any losses (if any) from managing the arena. Of course, there are variations on the above, but that type of arrangement is typical -- you won't find many cases where the public entity builds an arena for a private business (NHL team) and then pays the NHL team to manage the building for its own commercial purposes.

 

[Ciao]

I really cant see them paying out another $25M after this season Whileee. The optics' alone would just be bad combined with the very real possibility of a GW challenge. They, along with either Reinsdorf or Jamison are going to have to do their due dilly & come up with a sampling of what other municipalities with similar sized facilities with an NHL franchise & what their Arena Management firms are being paid; find a happy land. Secondly, Glendales' got a municipal election next year and if Scruggs' either doesnt run or goes down to defeat (along with some of the Councilors) we could have yet another serious game changer, which absolutely means this has got to get done & fast.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Killion, but I thought Glendale council approved up to 10 years of S25-million-flavoured ice-cream cones if the NHL wanted to eat them. Did I misread that, or did I get the council part right but miss out that it's the discretion of the City Manager and the NHL to renew? Please bring me up to speed.

 

[Mungman]

Correct me if I'm wrong, Killion, but I thought Glendale council approved up to 10 years of S25-million-flavoured ice-cream cones if the NHL wanted to eat them. Did I misread that, or did I get the council part right but miss out that it's the discretion of the City Manager and the NHL to renew? Please bring me up to speed.

I had this discussion in the last thread for just this occasion...(yay for shadow boxing)

Me:

My understanding (that I understand is not shared by many here) is that the 25MM subsidy is a year by year deal separate from the lease. The lease is renewable at the leagues discretion but the cash is separate.

CF:

Your understanding is absolutely correct. It's all public record so not sure how there can be any doubt:
- The subsidy is year to year; capped at $25MM; approved by vote of the Glendale City Council.
- The lease is an executed agreement which contains a provision that allows extension or transfer at the sole discretion of the NHL.

Killion:

Thats correct. I think most understand that no?... called "Arena Management Fee".
Big difference between a "subsidy" and an "Arena Management Fee" Mungman...

Me:

I've seen the error several times (usually after it hasn't been discussed for awhile) where people assume that the 25MM is part of the lease agreement and if the league extends a year they're automatically getting 25MM, now with the current make-up of the CoG council that may not be far from the truth.

 

[Mungman]

That sounds like a very generous estimate at 11,051. No way that many people actually showed up at the Job.

CNBC's Darren Rovell put up some tweets about attendance and linked some photos. I won't paste them here because that sort of thing seems to be frowned upon, but the implication was it was a very thin crowd. One of the photos shows a good chunk of the luxury boxes, which are completely empty. Not one person sitting in a box seat. Brutal.

Quite a few of the boxes are unsold (i.e. no one group/corporation owns the rights). I know quite a few people from The Peg that went down for the opener on the 15th, they rented the boxes for the game (at least three from the individuals I know of I assume there are more) and it worked out quite a bit cheaper than buying an equivalent number of tickets in the lower bowl. Now THAT is a huge amount of revenue missing over a whole season (can be seen as an opportunity or a risk from the perspective of a buyer).

 

[Mungman]

From the PHX Board (for some reason they don't like it when I post there (could it be my avatar???)):

...
Finally, no, not doubling ticket prices, gradual increases of app. 7-10% per annum over 5yrs while simultaneously beefing up the sales department, many of its employees' having left over the past few years. Pretty short staffed. Follow leads as per Yormark in Florida with specialty fan & corporate zone packages etc. Presentation & naming rights to various intangibles. All kinds of room there in Phoenix as neither Moyes nor the league have done anything much with them. There is a sizeable chunk of change just sitting on the table in sponsorship dollars alone. Speed through transition will be key; if they can, capitalizing on the NBA's difficulties etc...

I can see this working as part of the answer, but I could also see a potential owner borrowing the "Drive to XX" tactic as part of the solution (with a discresionary out if the goal is not achieved). As this team is already in the location I wouldn't push it to the point that the goal is overly ambitious. Maybe 9k or so to get a solid base to build on with the Yormark tactics, a hybrid approach like this could halve the timeline to stability.

(BTW K, i think TNSE was 15 min away for the 10-11 season from getting PHX, not 11-12. They also had a shot for 11-12 until Glendale offered to pony up all on their own. (again from the PHX thread))

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

From the PHX Board (for some reason they don't like it when I post there (could it be my avatar???)):

They don't like it when I post there either buddy and I don't even have an Avatar.

 

[LadyStanley]

Mod note - no need to continue discussion on the low attendance/empty seats - suite, lower or upper bowl. For. Any. Game.



Move along.

 

[Killion]

You think they haven't done that? The NHL could supply them with that information (in basic outline if not in specific detail) in a matter of minutes.... The other thing which I think you are a bit out of touch with Killion is that very few NHL teams get paid to by the public entity owner of an arena to "manage" the arena for a municipality. You've really got this all backwards.

Oh?. I see. Im driving Southbound in the Northbound lanes on Maroons Road (again) am I?. Well, its a Hell a lot quicker to get where Im goin and just look at all of the nice folks gettin outta my way?...

There are numerous examples of municipalities not only building arenas' for sports franchises but so too retaining the services of the teams associative arena management firms. The COG should not be relying upon a 5 minute telephone conversation with the National Hockey League to "determine" what an appropriate fee might be. Seems they've already done that, twice. Though I appreciate & respect your opinions, navigational assistance, there is an awful lot more going on here than meets the eye, and despite your postulations to the opposite Sir, there are many things...

... or wont, to my satisfaction.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Oh?. I see. Im driving Southbound in the Northbound lanes on Maroons Road (again) am I?. Well, its a Hell a lot quicker to get where Im goin and just look at all of the nice folks gettin outta my way?...

There are numerous examples of municipalities not only building arenas' for sports franchises but so too retaining the services of the teams associative arena management firms. The COG should not be relying upon a 5 minute telephone conversation with the National Hockey League to "determine" what an appropriate fee might be. Seems they've already done that, twice. Though I appreciate & respect your opinions, navigational assistance, there is an awful lot more going on here than meets the eye, and despite your postulations to the opposite Sir, there are many things...

That is not how it works Killion - not in the vast majority of cases. How about giving some example? It certainly doesn't happen in the NHL with the possible exception of Nashville where the city government was doing whatever they could to stave off relocation of the Predators a few years ago. Remember this is the same Nashville that paid part of the expansion fee for the owner of the team on top of building and renovating the arena with tax payer funds. Crazy stuff in a supposed free market.

 

[Fugu]

Mod note - no need to continue discussion on the low attendance/empty seats - suite, lower or upper bowl. For. Any. Game.

We've had this conversation before. Lots of folks refuse to pay one cent to league while they are owners.


Move along.

I'll add some clarification to this Mod Redirect because not everyone posts here routinely, who may choose to join in at various points, and thus won't have had all the previous discussions.


At this stage, the discussion should focus on the NHL's efforts to find a new owner for the franchise. There are several factors that in general can/may affect:

• The asking and selling price;
• The subsidy level being sought from Glendale;
• Arena management issues and the lease with COG
• Arizona law
• Ticket prices (in general) and overall attendance rates (no game by game attendance and photos are needed... everyone knows the score off the ice)

If it's relevant to the overarching discussion on the franchise's situation and ultimate fate, it is fair game.

If you need clarification, send a PM to any of your friendly business board moderators. If you don't want friendly, send a PM to me.

 

[Fugu]

A lot are. Salaries are paid in USD. Revenues come in at the local currency. As we approach a 10% difference, US teams will have a competitive advantage.

I think the point only stands at a greater variance than 10%. Canadian teams make more money per customer than most US teams. So if the baseline for a Canadian team is Cdn $90-100 million (before playoffs to keep things equal), a 10% variance still keeps them in the respectable range. 20-40% like the bad years of the prior decade..... and yes, we have an issue that is almost strictly currency related.

 

[Fugu]

With such a strong Canadian dollar there is added incentive to move the Coyotes back to Canada. Oops. 98.3 US Perhaps continued currency weakness will turn the current south once again.

If only all the issues facing teams, Canadian or not, were currency related.