Phoenix XIXth: Nervous Breakdown

[bacon25]

So was anything of note said in this City council meeting??? Is there light at the end of the tunnel or is everyone still in the dark?

 

[Dado]

No discussion or voting on the lease changes?

Maybe they're just gonna ignore the issue and count on nobody noticing the team is gone...

Weird.

 

[blues10]

Share the comment from Lieberman please

I beleive that was the comment that he made. Once the video is posted on the COG website I will watch it again and have an exact quote. I was just wondering if anyone else heard that. It may just be nothing but sounded a little intiguing.

 

[Coach]

Did anyone catch the comment tonight from Phil Lieberman at the COG council meeting about the 5500 parking spots that they already own. Was he referring to the spots that they are purchasing from Mr. Hulsizer or does the COG own other parking lots at Westgate?

Perhaps this explains why the bonds haven't been sold. The COG realized after talking to Goldwater that they actually own the parking rights so the bonds no longer need to be sold and now MH is trying to find an extra 100 million to buy the team.

 

[Dado]

The COG realized after talking to Goldwater that they actually own the parking rights...

That's ridiculous!

But entirely plausible, given how everything else has gone.

 

[smokes]

I might add there was a good Oiler Nation contingent there tonight. As seen on TV.

Must have been the Poutine and Canadian Beer marketing ploy.

 

[RAgIn]

I beleive that was the comment that he made. Once the video is posted on the COG website I will watch it again and have an exact quote. I was just wondered if anyone else heard that. It may just be nothing but sounded a little intiguing.

Let's hope that they don't edit out that comment

 

[Bruinbear]

If they honestly already own the lot they cant pay 100 million for it. This could be huge

 

[danishh]

how can they possibly not already own the lot. They own the land and own the building. They are negotiating a lease where they give this all to yotes as tenants, and then are buying back the rights to use the lot. It's a stupid way to try to gift 100M to hulsizer without making it look too obvious.

 

[Bruinbear]

how can they possibly not already own the lot. They own the land and own the building. They are negotiating a lease where they give this all to yotes as tenants, and then are buying back the rights to use the lot. It's a stupid way to try to gift 100M to hulsizer without making it look too obvious.

Too bad GWI seems to have noticed and can point this out in a lawsuit.

The moment a lawsuit is filed i bet Hulsizer will walk and the NHL with him. Hulsizer might already be out knowing he cant get 100 million from a parking they already own

 

[Fourier]

I might add there was a good Oiler Nation contingent there tonight. As seen on TV.

Phoenix is a very popular January road trip for Oiler fans.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

I might add there was a good Oiler Nation contingent there tonight. As seen on TV.

Can't blame 'em - 2006 aside, how much playoff success have the Oilers had without having the Jets to kick out of the playoffs in the first round?

 

[CBJ goalie]

If they honestly already own the lot they cant pay 100 million for it. This could be huge

Wanna know a really good way to find out who legally owns the parking lot?
Sue them. Have someone slip and all, and believe me a lawyer WILL find out how legally owns the land to sue them.

Right now, it's just semantics - COG is beating around the bush about who may own the parking lot, just to somehow draw artificial revenue from it.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

Video works fine for me.

Beasley is on right now.

And while the council is in session, a hockey game is on. It's almost sold out

http://twitpic.com/3tfoes

10,057 attendance for tonights game.

Wow, that is a sold out game, if you have the upper bowl curtained off like many AHL teams do when playing in large stadiums.

I think they already own the parking rights because they get the money from the parking when it is used for football games.

 

[ATHF]

So end of January.......right? Isn't that what the Coyote PR flak said? Wonder when the new "deal will be done" date will be when that one passes too...

 

[Coach]

Going back to a January 18th post by wpgjetsfan and the believed quote last night by Lieberman and the non sale of the bonds thus far really has me wondering if this is important.

Post:
So I emailed Carrie from Goldwater a few days ago and asked the following questions:

1) Who owns the parking around Jobing.com arena?
2) Does the COG own it or does the Coyotes hockey team?
3) If it is the Coyotes hockey team and the team relocates, does the new owner keep the parking rights around the Jobing.com arena?

Now if the parking rights are given to the hockey team from the COG as per the existing lease, then how does the new lease change things? Meaning, how can the COG in one lease give the hockey team the parking for free and then in another way buy the parking back from the team for 100 Million? Wouldn't that go against the Gift Clause? Because they are circumventing the gift clause by offering something for nothing and then paying to get it back.


As per her response:
We’re researching those very questions and agree the answers may present a Gift Clause issue. It is my understanding that the City retains the parking rights permanently, but we’re still trying to find out whether the City owns those parking rights in the first place


So it appears no one here knows if the COG really owns the parking or if the hockey team owns it.

Also, MH and the COG drafted that new lease and therefore the OLD one would become Null and Void the moment it's signed. But here is the kicker, If the COG did give parking free for the old lease and now gives it for free to buy it back is against the Gift Clause. Even more so in their current economy.

 

[Whileee]

One of the things that struck me about the discussions about the amendment of the MUDA and "finding" the $12.5 million instead of using it for building a parking garage is how often Beasley and others said that there was "no way of predicting" future parking arrangements and needs 7-10 years in the future. That's interesting, considering that they are willing to pay $100 million for parking revenue rights over the next 30 years. There is a logical contradiction in that thinking.

 

[MaskedSonja]

"Parking...we're talking about parking....not the games, about parking.....parking!"



Yea, I got nuttin....


I agree if CoG does in fact own the parking outright, and can't pay 100 million dollars-where to get that money from.

I'm getting the feeling that everything they try, they're hitting up against potential GWI lawsuit, and the reason they haven't said anything, is because...well....there's nothing to say at the moment.

I too would like the NHL to at least come out and give an absolute drop dead date for a deal to get done-but I don't think that's going to happen.

 

[borno87]

It appears that 2 key issues have held up the "imminence" of this sale.

1) GWI meeting with Glendale and rattling their cages regarding the uncertainty about who actually owns the lots. This has clearly spooked CoG which explains the rhetoric we have been seeing in the Arizona media the last week or so.

2) Potential Underwriters for the parking lot bond have scrutinized the CoG parking studies that were based on more favorable rates and pushed back on CoG to come back with a plan to service the debt on the bond that accounts for the less favorable bond rates they are likely to see. The CoG may have been able to sneak the parking studies by the clueless city concellors, but you can be sure that a bond underwriter is not going to gloss over the type of details that the councellors did, especially when it comes to a bond issue as large as this.

In business, things rarely go according to plan so MH and the NHL aren't as worried about this as many of us espect them to be (which explains the lack of "the deal is in trouble" leaks from national media). The issues mentioned can and should be worked out to close the deal, however I don't think anyone on these boards would be suprised if they didnt work out.

RE: TNSE's deadline. Keep in mind that the NHL was minutes away from moving the team to Winnipeg around playoff time last year, so I wouldnt worry about TNSE deadlines or anything like that. If the team is moving, TNSE will do what's necessary to be ready, and so will the NHL

 

[Coach]

Last night both Alverez and Lieberman voiced concern that public monies would need to go into servicing the parking debt. Even the Mayor, wouldn't confirm that public money wouldn't be used. So getting harder to argue the gift clause won't be violated.

 

[Dado]

It's January 26.

There's still no lease, there's still no pile o' cash, we're at the all star break and the new Manitoba Moose jerseys have NHL tags on them.

Are we waiting for something that's already happened?

 

[Killion]

The COG owns the Parking lots, no question about it, along with Glendale Arena. The concepts not hard to follow; they've leased the arena AND the lots to MH. They intend to "buy back" the rights to the lots for $125M, and as we all know, intend to pay for the purchase through bonding & the latest wrinkle, the inclusion of a CFD within Westgate to meet their obligations in servicing the issuance should parking revenues fall short of the obviously highly optimistic & contentious revenue projections...... The question seems pretty simple;does including the lots in the lease (Moyes & Ellman owned the rights to the lots through the lease), then assigning a value, ANY value to the lots potential revenue streams, a Muni then paying the lease holder a fee to buy back the rights to land they own breach the Gift Clause?.

According to legal minds here & elsewhere, its debatable & likely winnable. Should GW challenge, its frontal attack wont be over the parking lot issues, I beleive it'll be over the lack of transparency & release of documentation, the arena management contract, and, they'll likely include the parking lot issue in any suit, but just for good measure, as on its own its 50/50 at best that they could make it stick. Needless to say, the threat alone would make any bond underwriter nervous to proceed until such time as the threats have been completely eliminated, the AMULA & ownership in place. What boggles the mind is Glendales apparent strategy here, in leaving everything until the last possible second to force GW's acceptance & submission, to just let it go and turn the other cheek, look the other way, when they've been nothing short of contemptuous towards the institute & the process. Hulsizers' not going to accept anything less than whats been promised, so whats left?. What next?.

 

[Whileee]

The COG owns the Parking lots, no question about it, along with Glendale Arena. The concepts not hard to follow; they've leased the arena AND the lots to MH. They intend to "buy back" the rights to the lots for $125M, and as we all know, intend to pay for the purchase through bonding & the latest wrinkle, the inclusion of a CFD within Westgate to meet their obligations in servicing the issuance should parking revenues fall short of the obviously highly optimistic & contentious revenue projections...... The question seems pretty simple;does including the lots in the lease (Moyes & Ellman owned the rights to the lots through the lease), then assigning a value, ANY value to the lots potential revenue streams, a Muni then paying the lease holder a fee to buy back the rights to land they own breach the Gift Clause?.

According to legal minds here & elsewhere, its debatable & likely winnable. Should GW challenge, its frontal attack wont be over the parking lot issues, I beleive it'll be over the lack of transparency & release of documentation, the arena management contract, and, they'll likely include the parking lot issue in any suit, but just for good measure, as on its own its 50/50 at best that they could make it stick. Needless to say, the threat alone would make any bond underwriter nervous to proceed until such time as the threats have been completely eliminated, the AMULA & ownership in place. What boggles the mind is Glendales apparent strategy here, in leaving everything until the last possible second to force GW's acceptance & submission, to just let it go and turn the other cheek, look the other way, when they've been nothing short of contemptuous towards the institute & the process. Hulsizers' not going to accept anything less than whats been promised, so whats left?. What next?.

Yup...

In my view, if the GWI does decide to take this to court they would likely include the whole enchilada, since it tells a coherent story of what actually happened. Glendale is desperate to keep the Coyotes, so they have been trying to come to a lease agreement with a few suitors. However, the NHL's intransigence on the price and the lack of confidence in the market by potential owners meant that each and every one of the potential owners has demanded financial support to help with the purchase price and to cover losses. In the earlier negotiations, the COG proposed that these subsidies be provided by a CFD, rather than directly by the COG. In fact, they rejected one MOU (with IEH) for contemplating that the COG backstop the CFD subsidies. When these previous ownership candidates stepped aside, Hulsizer arrived wanting the same subsidies for purchasing the club, but since the CFD wasn't flying they needed to provide these subsidies directly. Since they could not do that legally with the gift clause, they developed financially questionable deals for the parking and arena management fees to disguise the subsidies as legitimate payments. Throughout all of this, they have assiduously kept information about their dealings from the public and went so far as to conceal parking revenue studies from city councilors and the public before the vote. The lack of transparency and misleading the public is not just a side issue, but central to Glendale's strategy to get the deal approved in the face of the gift law.

This is a tasty legal repast for the GWI, mostly because the narrative is true, and almost everyone knows it.

 

[Killion]

Last night both Alverez and Lieberman voiced concern that public monies would need to go into servicing the parking debt. Even the Mayor, wouldn't confirm that public money wouldn't be used. So getting harder to argue the gift clause won't be violated.

On top of servicing the arena bonds. In my limited understanding of municipal, state & federal accountancy practices, I would assume that whenever public monies are used to service bonds theirs likely a 1000 ways to hide the pea. Thats a problem for another Council & new Mayor to deal with down the road.

 

[Whileee]

One more thing... I am sure that Beasley, Mayor Scruggs and the councilors know that a court case will result in the unpleasant task of having all of the documents on the table, and having to testify under oath. I am quite certain that they would like to avoid that at all costs, and that they do not view this as a frivolous threat.