Phoenix Part XXX Hulz, you gotta get a gimmick if you want to get ahead

[Blue Shakehead]

That's precisely the problem with the whole GWI thing. If they were actually open to working things out in order to keep hockey as they say and yet "protect taxpayers" couldn't the guy at least pick up the phone to clarify and not leave his "interpretation" to be blasted over every media outlet that will accept him? If this isn't grandstanding, I don't know what is..

Grandstanding would be threatening to sue but not backing it up. Like, say...the City of Glendale's public threat to sue Goldwater for $500 million. Speaking of which, whats the status of that?

 

[CoyotesinAZ]

It's not Goldwater's place to strike a business deal. The NHL, Glendale and Hulsizer can do that all on their own because they are the business parters; and Goldwater is not.

Goldwater's interest is constitutional validity, and there's no reason that can't be discussed in public.

Actually, since COG, the fans, and Hulsizer feel that GWI is obstructionist in their intentions and considering a lawsuit, maybe GWI could show their list of donors publicly, to determine the validity of that claim as well. That would be transparency on both sides and kill two court cases at once.

 

[Jeffrey93]

As a market, there is no shortage in corporate support and people that can support the franchise as fans in the stands. It's up to the owner(s) and his organization to make it work. They're just like any other business that sells a product. The onus is on the team to create a model that works and sells itself to the customers and gets them to return. All the basic requirements are there in Phoenix.

I have no idea if Hulsizer is the right guy to make it work for Phoenix. I'm also not opposed to relocation when local options have been exhausted...which it is about to be...I just disagree with some people's views on the Phoenix market and the events that have led to where it is currently.

Why do people totally ignore AN INTEREST IN THE PRODUCT as being crucial to the business succeeding and the market being capable of supporting the business???

Having loads of people and corporations doesn't mean if you run your business well you will automatically have a thriving business. People need to want your product and want it enough to pay a decent amount for it.

Go to the largest cities in the world and try opening up a 'BM on your chest service'. Sure...you might get a few clients...but there would be nowhere near the INTEREST IN THE PRODUCT (service in this case) to make your business thrive...even with cities of tens of millions and enormous corproate "support". It won't work...because those businesses and those tens of millions of people aren't interested in what yer sellin'.

Your entire first paragraph didn't even come close to hinting that demand for the product is needed. It isn't something an Owner can purchase or something that a market has by default.

We have people. We have businesses. We have a product. If you run this right...it can't fail!! What's the product? Who cares?!? We have people and corporations...they'll buy anything if we manage ourselves decently and have some well placed marketing! Just look at the Edsel, Betamax, New Coke, etc. All sold in large markets by capable businesses...and all huge hits! Demand? What's that?

 

[RAgIn]

Actually, since COG, the fans, and Hulsizer feel that GWI is obstructionist in their intentions and considering a lawsuit, maybe GWI could show their list of donors publicly, to determine the validity of that claim as well. That would be transparency on both sides and kill two court cases at once.

I think the GWI can accept whatever donation that comes through their door. I might be wrong on that. Feel free to object and clarify. Either way, im sure they get audited every year. Actually, I seen a TV report from Resnik showing their data and how much money they really have. Incase litigation occurs. But lucky for them, they often work probono. Not much in the bank.

 

[RECCE]

Actually, since COG, the fans, and Hulsizer feel that GWI is obstructionist in their intentions and considering a lawsuit, maybe GWI could show their list of donors publicly, to determine the validity of that claim as well. That would be transparency on both sides and kill two court cases at once.

If you happen to be an employee of one of these companies, they will match your donation.
http://goldwaterinstitute.org/companymatchinggifts

 

[Ciao]

Actually, since COG, the fans, and Hulsizer feel that GWI is obstructionist in their intentions and considering a lawsuit, maybe GWI could show their list of donors publicly, to determine the validity of that claim as well. That would be transparency on both sides and kill two court cases at once.

Sure. Why not?

But if they don't reveal their donors, they are still entitled express their opinion and bring legal action if they so choose.

 

[CoyotesinAZ]

I think the GWI can accept whatever donation that comes through their door. I might be wrong on that. Feel free to object and clarify. Either way, im sure they get audited every year. Actually, I seen a TV report from Resnik showing their data and how much money they really have. Incase litigation occurs. But lucky for them, they often work probono. Not much in the bank.

Yes, Resnick showed their revenues for the last few years which was not much. Goldwater stated that they however, were not obligated to show the list of donors and that their total collections from Canadian sponsors was $20.00 as far as she knew. LOL. I personally saw posted 2 Canadians that were touting that they donated $20 to the "bring home the jets" cause and urged more to contribute the cause. Heresay, I know, but come on.....

 

[peter sullivan]

I'll leave you with your thoughts on the matter regardless of its accuracy and meaning.

please....enlighten me....thats why we are all here.

 

[Ciao]

On account of all the attention Goldwater is getting, both positive and negative, I'd say it's doing it's job. Not everyone appreciates that, but challenging the decisions of government is one of the points of their existence.

Again, don't blame Goldwater if Glendale has neglected to put the issue before a court. They are the ones trying to sell the bonds, not Goldwater.

 

[PeaSouper]

if the NHL finds enough public bond buyers for the bond placement and if the COG is willing to pay whatever interest rate, then the transaction will immediately conclude and the deal is effectively done. It would be too late at that point for the GWI to file an injunction against the sale.

This generally isn't true; munis typically settle at T+3. Plenty of time for an injunction to be filed.

 

[Jet]

That isn't relevant to the point. Transactions aren't negotiated in the public for various reasons and there's no reason this one should either.

Of course there is a reason. This is between a private business, and a government body using taxpayers money. It is not a private business to private business deal. It is especially important that this negotiation is public because of the less than honest way numbers have been manipulated by the parties in order to skirt the law.

 

[yotesreign]

A conflict of interest would be: being that mayor that lead the charge to build a $180arena

For what it's worth, and not to nitpik because the "$180 million arena" idea is reported constantly everywhere and not just by one poster, and it's wrong but for all the expert analysis on NPVs and INTs and bonds and gifts, no one seems to care the arena is not a $180 million arena, so excuse the interruption but...

The cost of the Arena was not $180 million, but $230 million. The city of Glendale paid $180 million of the $230 million. The team paid $50 million. Together the city and
the team paid $230 million for the arena. Now it is several years old and I won't hazard a guess on its current value, but it cost $230 million, not $180 million.

Considering they didn't own the building, that could help explain $50 million of the losses they incurred since the move to Glendale. Doesn't seems like it would contribute to any NHL losses since purchasing the team though.

 

[Blue Shakehead]

For what it's worth, and not to nitpik because the "$180 million arena" idea is reported constantly everywhere and not just by one poster, and it's wrong but for all the expert analysis on NPVs and INTs and bonds and gifts, no one seems to care the arena is not a $180 million arena, so excuse the interruption but...

The cost of the Arena was not $180 million, but $230 million. The city of Glendale paid $180 million of the $230 million. The team paid $50 million. Together the city and
the team paid $230 million for the arena. Now it is several years old and I won't hazard a guess on its current value, but it cost $230 million, not $180 million.

That's fair. I actually knew the arena was more and that the $180 represented only the CoG's share, but was too lazy to go into the details.

Considering they didn't own the building, that could help explain $50 million of the losses they incurred since the move to Glendale. Doesn't seems like it would contribute to any NHL losses since purchasing the team though.

The team's portion of the building would be a classified as a capital purchase and amortized / depreciated over the life of the building. These generally aren't included in the calculation of the team's operating losses. Case in point, the team's reported losses in 08-09 were around $27 million, whereas the losses including depreciation were approx $67 million.

 

[Ernie]

If you happen to be an employee of one of these companies, they will match your donation.
http://goldwaterinstitute.org/companymatchinggifts

haha, the Arizona Republic is on that list.

After their editorial swings at the Goldwater Institute lately, would be funny if they were forced to match an employee donation.

 

[phamJET]

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/hockey/professional/article_3c616d00-bfcd-50ff-8d4a-6fc958abb40c.html

Don Maloney, Coyotes GM on the ownership saga:

"If you ask me now, I have no idea what our working conditions are going to be like next year, or where we're going to be playing," Maloney said

working conditions as in sunny phoenix, or winter winnipeg?

looks like the jets are gonna be back to shoot out the lights.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

For what it's worth, and not to nitpik because the "$180 million arena" idea is reported constantly everywhere and not just by one poster, and it's wrong but for all the expert analysis on NPVs and INTs and bonds and gifts, no one seems to care the arena is not a $180 million arena, so excuse the interruption but...

The cost of the Arena was not $180 million, but $230 million. The city of Glendale paid $180 million of the $230 million. The team paid $50 million. Together the city and
the team paid $230 million for the arena. Now it is several years old and I won't hazard a guess on its current value, but it cost $230 million, not $180 million.

Considering they didn't own the building, that could help explain $50 million of the losses they incurred since the move to Glendale. Doesn't seems like it would contribute to any NHL losses since purchasing the team though.

A lot of people (myself included) didn't know this ... there's definitely an assumption that the Coyotes didn't pay a nickel towards that building.

 

[Dolemite]

Watching the Glendale meeting. Glendale residents are blasting the Coyotes right now. A woman speaking at the moment is talking about how Sunday night's game was sold out....with Black Hawk fans! She said it was like a Black Hawk home game.
She also said people are trying to her sell tickets tonight and keep lowering the price to "almost free." So it appears not all Glendale residents feel their tax money should go to support the Coyotes.

Just an FYI. Both the MLB Chicago White Sox and Chicago Cubs have spring training homes in the Phoenix Area. The White Sox spring training home is literally a couple of miles away from the Jobing.com arena. I would have been shocked if this game wasn't sold out given how many fans from Chicago make the trip down here for Spring Training.

 

[Grumpz]

it seems to be a common misconception that population and corporate presence equals a viable hockey market.....

the five franchises that lost the most money last season are: (in order)

phoenix (pop 4.4 million)
florida (pop 5.5 million)
washington (5.4 million)
atlanta (pop 5.4 million)
tampa (2.7 million)


i am not really sure what the coyote owners could have done differently.....they chose not to monetize this $100m gold mine they were sitting on to protect the cost of going to a game for the fans....they charged the lowest ticket prices in the NHL....they built a decent team....they have a brand new beautiful facility.

i had been to games long before bankruptcy where on a saturday night i got a ticket, free parking, a beach towel and a free hot dog and drink for $25...seems like the owners were doing all they could to get me in that building.

i know coyote fans will say they could have won more, but in sports someone has to lose....support for a winning team isn't the sign of a good market...support for a losing team is.....you cant build a business plan around winning because every team eventually loses.

Well put indeed!

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Why do people totally ignore AN INTEREST IN THE PRODUCT as being crucial to the business succeeding and the market being capable of supporting the business???

Having loads of people and corporations doesn't mean if you run your business well you will automatically have a thriving business. People need to want your product and want it enough to pay a decent amount for it.

Go to the largest cities in the world and try opening up a 'BM on your chest service'. Sure...you might get a few clients...but there would be nowhere near the INTEREST IN THE PRODUCT (service in this case) to make your business thrive...even with cities of tens of millions and enormous corproate "support". It won't work...because those businesses and those tens of millions of people aren't interested in what yer sellin'.

Your entire first paragraph didn't even come close to hinting that demand for the product is needed. It isn't something an Owner can purchase or something that a market has by default.

We have people. We have businesses. We have a product. If you run this right...it can't fail!! What's the product? Who cares?!? We have people and corporations...they'll buy anything if we manage ourselves decently and have some well placed marketing! Just look at the Edsel, Betamax, New Coke, etc. All sold in large markets by capable businesses...and all huge hits! Demand? What's that?

How the Coyotes did leading up to the bankruptcy is enough evidence for me to say that there is definitely enough interest in the Phoenix area to run a franchise. When I said that there were plenty of people around to be the fans in the stands, that is referring to the demand that is in the market for a hockey team. But there was one thing you did get right here. You can't just send a team to an arena, let it run itself, and expect fans. That's kind of what happened in Phoenix. They showed up with a good team and after a few playoff appearances, they stopped icing competitive teams.

Do you think fans in San Jose just appeared out of nowhere? It took many years of good teams to develop a relationship with their base that they will compete. They will nosedive every now and then but the owners have done nothing but try to win and that's how you turn a bunch of casual observers into hockey fans and paying customers. Phoenix had the good start but failed to follow up on it for seven years.

Of course there is a reason. This is between a private business, and a government body using taxpayers money. It is not a private business to private business deal. It is especially important that this negotiation is public because of the less than honest way numbers have been manipulated by the parties in order to skirt the law.

And this is the first time that a private business and a government have performed a transaction ever? Interesting.

 

[jessebelanger]

it seems to be a common misconception that population and corporate presence equals a viable hockey market.....

the five franchises that lost the most money last season are: (in order)

phoenix (pop 4.4 million)
florida (pop 5.5 million)
washington (5.4 million)
atlanta (pop 5.4 million)
tampa (2.7 million)


i am not really sure what the coyote owners could have done differently.....they chose not to monetize this $100m gold mine they were sitting on to protect the cost of going to a game for the fans....they charged the lowest ticket prices in the NHL....they built a decent team....they have a brand new beautiful facility.

i had been to games long before bankruptcy where on a saturday night i got a ticket, free parking, a beach towel and a free hot dog and drink for $25...seems like the owners were doing all they could to get me in that building.

i know coyote fans will say they could have won more, but in sports someone has to lose....support for a winning team isn't the sign of a good market...support for a losing team is.....you cant build a business plan around winning because every team eventually loses.

Any time a poster includeds WSH as one of their "top 5 franchises losing money" - you need to call into question the accuracy of what is being posted. The capitals drew 100% capacity last year and hosted 4 playoff games - and you want to include them as a top 5 $ losing franchise? You may want to revisit those calculations. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you're quoting the oft-posted numbers from forbes. I wonder how the guys who are actually cutting the cheques here feel about forbes numbers

The Forbes numbers are the biggest [expletive] joke I've ever seen, But we bring it upon ourselves because we don't publish our numbers

We sell out every game.

We are situated in a top 5 media market.

We now own the building that we play in,too.

We are a top 6 paid admissions club in the league. Ahead of several teams mentioned here.

We drive great ratings for our media partners

But I no longer care what Forbes says– you shouldn’t either–we are a private company

-Leonsis

The point here is not that these franchises are or are not losing money, the point is the constant reference to flawed numbers as an evaluation of a market is silly. If you're going to use the real numbers, the numbers demonstrating Floridas terrible T.V. ratings, or Phoenix's operating losses as disclosed in the bankruptcy proceedings - that's one thing. But to make guesses and then draw conclusions from those guesses - I have a hard time swallowing that.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

How the Coyotes did leading up to the bankruptcy is enough evidence for me to say that there is definitely enough interest in the Phoenix area to run a franchise. When I said that there were plenty of people around to be the fans in the stands, that is referring to the demand that is in the market for a hockey team. But there was one thing you did get right here. You can't just send a team to an arena, let it run itself, and expect fans. That's kind of what happened in Phoenix. They showed up with a good team and after a few playoff appearances, they stopped icing competitive teams.

Do you think fans in San Jose just appeared out of nowhere? It took many years of good teams to develop a relationship with their base that they will compete. They will nosedive every now and then but the owners have done nothing but try to win and that's how you turn a bunch of casual observers into hockey fans and paying customers. Phoenix had the good start but failed to follow up on it for seven years.



And this is the first time that a private business and a government have performed a transaction ever? Interesting.

So 13,000 people for playoff teams is enough to make you think there is enough interest? The team was making the playoffs and has been competitive for most of its history and NEVER drawn well is enough evidence to convince people it is worth it. The argument doesn't make sense but I suppose if the Canadiens were in a suburb of phoenix and had won 5 stanley cups in 7 years people would come out....

BTW, this past weekend, the Chciago Wolves had over 14,000 people for their Saturday night game....

And there is nothing wrong, even in Arizona, with a government and business entering into a financial transaction. The caveat is that the transaction cannot violate the laws of AZ.

 

[cbcwpg]

Don Maloney, Coyotes GM on the ownership saga:

"If you ask me now, I have no idea what our working conditions are going to be like next year, or where we're going to be playing," Maloney said

If the team moves, I don't think Maloney or any of the hockey operations staff need to worry about the working conditions in Winnipeg. Chipman has been very public ( a rare thing for TNSE ) about his support for his current staff, as well, most people in the hockey world think rather highly of the GM, coaching staff, and training staff, that the Moose currently employ.

So I would say fairly confidently that if the Coyotes move to Winnipeg, the hockey operations staff ( GM, Coaches, trainers, etc. ) won't be asked to move with the team.

 

[Alberta Yote]

Don Maloney, Coyotes GM on the ownership saga:

"If you ask me now, I have no idea what our working conditions are going to be like next year, or where we're going to be playing," Maloney said

If the team moves, I don't think Maloney or any of the hockey operations staff need to worry about the working conditions in Winnipeg. Chipman has been very public ( a rare thing for TNSE ) about his support for his current staff, as well, most people in the hockey world think rather highly of the GM, coaching staff, and training staff, that the Moose currently employ.

So I would say fairly confidently that if the Coyotes move to Winnipeg, the hockey operations staff ( GM, Coaches, trainers, etc. ) won't be asked to move with the team.

If Maloney, Tippett and others were willing to go to Winnipeg and Chipman decided to go a different direction that would be his first very major mistake.

 

[frisland]

Don Maloney, Coyotes GM on the ownership saga:

"If you ask me now, I have no idea what our working conditions are going to be like next year, or where we're going to be playing," Maloney said

If the team moves, I don't think Maloney or any of the hockey operations staff need to worry about the working conditions in Winnipeg. Chipman has been very public ( a rare thing for TNSE ) about his support for his current staff, as well, most people in the hockey world think rather highly of the GM, coaching staff, and training staff, that the Moose currently employ.

So I would say fairly confidently that if the Coyotes move to Winnipeg, the hockey operations staff ( GM, Coaches, trainers, etc. ) won't be asked to move with the team.

I would think the GM, coaches and trainers on the Moose are employees of the Vancouver Canucks. and this teams winning with Tippett and Maloney, so lets just trash them and start from scratch ......

 

[Royale With Cheese]

Don Maloney, Coyotes GM on the ownership saga:

"If you ask me now, I have no idea what our working conditions are going to be like next year, or where we're going to be playing," Maloney said

If the team moves, I don't think Maloney or any of the hockey operations staff need to worry about the working conditions in Winnipeg. Chipman has been very public ( a rare thing for TNSE ) about his support for his current staff, as well, most people in the hockey world think rather highly of the GM, coaching staff, and training staff, that the Moose currently employ.

So I would say fairly confidently that if the Coyotes move to Winnipeg, the hockey operations staff ( GM, Coaches, trainers, etc. ) won't be asked to move with the team.

No offence, but this is fantasy. If the Coyotes were to relocate, the TSNE group would be really lucky to inherent GM of the year and Coach of the year.