Phoenix LXXXIV: Planespotting Edition

[danishh]

Was much more Stern using his bully pulpit to try and make Daniels look bad. He was right about Stern, though, despite the Commissioner's protest.

the commissioner was 100% right and Daniels was being an idiot. The Sonics moved because they wanted (maybe or maybe not needed) an arena and the government didnt pay for one, this after they just paid for new stadiums for all the other teams. They had no choice but to move or pony up 400M themselves to build a new arena, which would be stupid considering their business model (and the NFL's, and the NHL's, and the MLB's) relies on bullying cities into building their venues.

I mean, a less ornery stern might have better phrased an answer along the lines of "Now Seattle is willing to work with us to build a stadium", but everything stern answered was accurate.

 

[Killion]

"Deborah Daoust, a spokesperson for Seattle Center and Key Arena, said Tuesday night that the ice making equipment and chilling system are still operational and have been used in the past for events like the Ice Capades and Disney on Ice. However, she said there had been no discussion, that she was aware of, concerning use for a hockey team. The arena recently freed up the dates that were held for an NBA franchise.

An engineers report was commissioned by Hansen over a year ago with plans & costs to retro-fit Key & bring it up to at least semi-speed as a temporary home for both an NBA & NHL franchise. That this Deborah Daoust is unaware of it? No idea what thats all about. Hansen had engineers crawling all over the place, discussed by the City, and I believe the allocation of funds split between Hansen & the municipality earmarked, doable. Discussed at length here on an earlier Seattle thread.

 

[Brodie]

well that and the people who owned them only really ever intended to move them to OKC in the first place

 

[madhi19]

An engineers report was commissioned by Hansen over a year ago with plans & costs to retro-fit Key & bring it up to at least semi-speed as a temporary home for both an NBA & NHL franchise. That this Deborah Daoust is unaware of it? No idea what thats all about. Hansen had engineers crawling all over the place, discussed by the City, and I believe the allocation of funds split between Hansen & the municipality earmarked, doable. Discussed at length here on an earlier Seattle thread.

Refresh my memory how much and how long for the work to be done.

 

[Habs05]

The arena situation in Edmonton was weak enough (at that time) to make us worry for the Oilers future...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...ar-after-new-arena-deal-nixed/article4621500/

So in Canada, if a new arena isn't 100% confirmed you might lose a franchise. But for the USA it's ok to put a team in a city, where they'll have to play in an awful arena with no confirmation of a new one...

Double standard indeed...

I know the world isn't fair, but it's really sickening. I said it many times, I have nothing against adding a new team in the US. But they should not give a team to a market who might like it at the expense of one who will cheer like crazy for them.

 

[TheTakedown]

Refresh my memory how much and how long for the work to be done.

Yeah, you've have to have double the workers to get the entire project done in... at best half the time. I'm guessing the work is at least 1 offseason, if not 1 entire year... which means anywhere from 1.5-6 months...

Not to mention this would be double the cost...

Then factoring we are looking at an arena pretty much equal to America West Arena... that's basically Phoenix Coyotes BEFORE they moved...

Now factor in this is a brand new market... There is no team name, no team logo, no jerseys, no color scheme for a jersey (lol?), no sponsors, no fans, minimal-to-no corporate following (although this would be pretty easy to grasp i assume)?

I mean.. how on this earth is this a feasible plan? Much less a PROFITABLE one?

 

[madhi19]

Yeah, you've have to have double the workers to get the entire project done in... at best half the time. I'm guessing the work is at least 1 offseason, if not 1 entire year... which means anywhere from 1.5-6 months...

Not to mention this would be double the cost...

Then factoring we are looking at an arena pretty much equal to America West Arena... that's basically Phoenix Coyotes BEFORE they moved...

Now factor in this is a brand new market... There is no team name, no team logo, no jerseys, no color scheme for a jersey (lol?), no sponsors, no fans, minimal-to-no corporate following (although this would be pretty easy to grasp i assume)?

I mean.. how on this earth is this a feasible plan? Much less a PROFITABLE one?

Am sold Seattle it is then! lolll Holy crap we burned another thread!!!

 

[TheTakedown]

A silly question, but perhaps someone can answer it...

Though it isn't fit for hockey, what are the chances of Phoenix moving... Back to Phoenix?

- They would be reunited into a downtown area
- They would be within major transportation huba
- Dealing with a different city
- Arena has been used before

I don't know how bad the sightlines actually were, but i'm very curious about this

Again, i'm not suggesting this... just asking

 

[Killion]

How is that flaming Killion? It's been said on here for years, by QC fans even, that the team was going to QC because "there's nowhere else to go". If there's somewhere else to go, that logic flies out the window. So now we're left with your contention that QC is going to be a top 8-10 market... for years we've heard they'd be middle of the pack, just like Winnipeg. We're moving the goalposts now to justify what we want to see happen. I don't think we're dealing with honorable people at all, K. But the whole thing strains credulity. The NHL is using a guy with more money than any of their current owners save two and a city of 2.5 million people to extort more cash out of a guy worth $700 million and a city of 700k?

Because of the abbreviated season, we dont know what Winnipegs numbers mightve been unfortunately, but in year one, easily a Top 10-12, and creeping up the charts like a Bullet. Crank up Winnipegs rabid fan base by about 3-5 notches, and your looking at Quebec City. The game beyond a religion. So ya, absolutely a Top 10, blowing the doors right off 2/3rds of the league, and in a market 1/4 to 1/7th the size of an LA or wherever else. Small, but beyond high-end. In fact, that might be part of the problem. They be so successful HRR's would be boosted to the point that the teams living on the edge couldnt keep up to meeting the basement cap.... So, where else could the Coyotes go?... no idea. How about Hamilton? Tulsa with the beautiful new BOK Centre? Maybe Alexander or Allens pulled a 180 and we dont know about any of it. Maybe the NHL's just crazy enough to rush madly into Seattle, these guys with more money than common sense, no problem losing $20-$30-$40M a year playing out of Key Arena. No idea. But to state anything authoritatively, definitively, with everything liquid & in-flux, then yes, it upsets members posting be they residents of Phoenix, Washington or Quebec. It raises expectations, deflates & demoralises others needlessly. We just dont know my friend.

 

[Brodie]

A silly question, but perhaps someone can answer it...

Though it isn't fit for hockey, what are the chances of Phoenix moving... Back to Phoenix?

- They would be reunited into a downtown area
- They would be within major transportation huba
- Dealing with a different city
- Arena has been used before

I don't know how bad the sightlines actually were, but i'm very curious about this

still no owner

no prospect of a replacement arena in a better location

no subsidy coming from Phoenix because they don't need the team

NHL won't pay rent themselves

 

[GF]

The arena situation in Edmonton was weak enough (at that time) to worry for the Oilers future...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...ar-after-new-arena-deal-nixed/article4621500/

So in Canada, if a new arena isn't 100% confirmed you might lose a franchise. But for the USA it's ok to put a team in a city, where they'll have to play in an awful arena with no confirmation of a new one...

Double standard indeed...

I know the world isn't fair, but it's really sickening. I said it many times, I have nothing against adding a new teams in the US. But they should not give a team to a market who might like it at the expense to one who will cheer like crazy for them.

Totally agree.

In QC, the old colisee that hosted many NHL games in the past, seemingly had to be revamped to get a chance to be deemed a good temporary arena. The city had to invest millions (and still is as there's a RFP to complete the work) just to have a chance at being considered. That was the NHL requesting those upgrades.

Fast forward, the NHL is ready to go to Key Arena even if it is clearly not up to NHL standards and has no chance of being ready for october. Plus, no new arena in sight, another absolute perequesite according to the NHL.

Well we now know for sure how full of poo the NHL is.

 

[TheTakedown]

Totally agree.

In QC, the old colisee that hosted many NHL games in the past, seemingly had to be revamped to get a chance to be deemed a good temporary arena. The city had to invest millions (and still is as there's a RFP to complete the work) just to have a chance at being considered. That was the NHL requesting those upgrades.

Fast forward, the NHL is ready to go to Key Arena even if it is clearly not up to NHL standards and has no chance of being ready for october. Plus, no new arena in sight, another absolute perequesite according to the NHL.

Well we now know for sure how full of poo the NHL is.

So ridiculous, that I think it's a ploy to either distract the real reports (everyone claims the info leaks regarding Winnipeg's move we're so out in the open... Perhaps the NHL has learned to do differently this time?), or it's being used to drive the price of the franchise up, since RSE would be buying with the NHL's money, while PKP is using his own...

Still think it's a load of hogwash though

 

[metalfoot]

To misquote the Gregory Brothers (one of my favourite political satire youtube channels) "The more I drink the more this whole thing's starting to make sense."

So, Seattle's Key Arena which was too crappy for the WHL is now an acceptable NHL arena on short notice with no new arena currently in the pipeline while the Colisee, which is currently being replaced with a new NHL-ready arena is not?

I'm thinking a severe bluff on the part of the NHL, or maybe a team in the Eastern Conference (NJD? Florida?) is moving to QC unbeknownst to us (like Atlanta coming to Winnipeg after years of the Phoenix expectation) and the NHL is desperate for a landing site for the Coyotes because their safe landing place is already taken.

Otherwise, pass the 12-year-old single malt, because it'll take a fair bit to figure this all out.

 

[Brodie]

there absolutely are arena plans in Seattle

 

[Killion]

Refresh my memory how much and how long for the work to be done.

Honestly I cant remember because I wasnt paying attention as I couldnt take it seriously enough to give it much more than a cursory glance. Six months seems to trigger a bell, possibly 10mnths to a year. Now that was going full-on with extensive reno's and certainly theoretically & practically speaking Key Arena could in fact be made game ready for October. We have the technology. No problemo. So. Provided the owners dont mind losing tens of millions for the next few years, or perhaps Gary softens the blow with promises of Maximum Revenue Sharing & money from his Development Fund to offset their losses, it is possible that they try & pull it off. I think its "silly", that they should do it properly, lead-time, get it setup properly, but this is the NHL, and they just might try it on. This is whats so annoying about these guys. Could be an empty bluff to gain leverage, then again, maybe not.

 

[Habs05]

there absolutely are arena plans in Seattle

but no confirmation

 

[madhi19]

there absolutely are arena plans in Seattle

Plans are one thing but since we heard that argument from all sort of pundit until a year ago am going to enjoy saying it. "Call me back when they broke ground!"

 

[TheTakedown]

there absolutely are arena plans in Seattle

There are plans, but the requirements for those plans are not met (Sonics returning to Seattle)

 

[metalfoot]

there absolutely are arena plans in Seattle

Plans, but no environmental assessment done. No shovels in the ground. No NBA team to get the lion's share of the gov't subsidy on construction according to the MOU, etc.

 

[Brodie]

There are plans, but the requirements for those plans are not met (Sonics returning to Seattle)

really easily changed

 

[Slashers98]

there absolutely are arena plans in Seattle

Stop it already Brodie. There is no shovel in the ground and there is still a lot of work before anything begins. Environmental study, modified MOU, etc.

 

[Brodie]

Stop it already Brodie. There is no shovel in the ground and there is still a lot of work before anything begins. Environmental study, modified MOU, etc.

Neither of those things seem to be an issue, though. Seattle's arena is as good as done as soon as a team actually lands there in either league

the NHL doesn't go there unless they KNOW there won't be any hangups

 

[Ugmo]

Was there this much animosity between Winnipeg and Quebec City two years ago? Yowzers!

 

[Muf]

there absolutely are arena plans in Seattle

But no Schedule... for the first dig

 

[Slashers98]

Neither of those things seem to be an issue, though. Seattle's arena is as good as done as soon as a team actually lands there in either league

the NHL doesn't go there unless they KNOW there won't be any hangups

Hansen and the city council told you personally?