Phoenix LXXXIV: Planespotting Edition

[Major4Boarding]

Previous Thread - "Stuff's Gonna Happen"

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1446443

Click to read more...

 

[kdb209]

What a Long Strange Trip It's Been ...

12-08-2008 Hockey in The Desert (Phoenix franchise and finance/business matters)
02-04-2009 Hockey in the Desert II (Phoenix Coyotes franchise and business matters)

05-05-2009 Balsillie puts in $212.5 mil offer for the Coyotes
05-07-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part II
05-18-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part III
05-22-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part IV
06-03-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part V
06-09-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VI
06-12-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VII: I'm just waitin' on a judge
06-16-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VIII: It's dead, Jim
06-24-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part IX: 'Dorf on Hockey
07-25-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part X: The Truth? You Can't Handle The Truth!
08-03-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XI: A Fistful of Dollars?
08-07-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XII: For a Few Dollars More
08-12-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XIII: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly
08-21-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XIV: The Wrath of Baum
08-27-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XV - SITREP: SNAFU
09-02-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVI: Barbarian at the Gate
09-08-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVII: Wake Me Up When September Ends
09-10-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVIII: Is that a pale horse in the distance?
09-12-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy Part XIX: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Baum
09-21-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XX: There Will Be Baum
09-28-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XXI: 2009 -- A Sports Odyssey
10-26-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XXII: Long and winding road

11-24-2009 Keeping up with potential owners for NHL Phoenix Coyotes (UPD: Ice Edge signs LOI)
03-14-2010 Part II. Potential owners of NHL's Phoenix Coyotes
03-26-2010 Part III. Prospective Owners - Phoenix Coyotes (UPD Lease vote 4/13; IEH signs MOU)
04-10-2010 Part IV Phoenix Coyotes post bankrtuptcy; UPD COG approves Reinsdorf MOU, not IEH MOU
05-02-2010 Part V Phoenix Coyotes post bankruptcy UPD Reinsdorf out? IEH back in? else Winnipeg?
05-11-2010 Part VI Phoenix Coyotes post bankruptcy
05-23-2010 Part VII Phoenix Coyotes post bankrtuptcy
06-07-2010 Part VIII: Phoenix Coyotes Post-bankrtuptcy
06-22-2010 Part IX: Phoenix Coyotes Post-bankruptcy UPD: Pres Moss fired 6/30 with IEH input
07-26-2010 Part X: Phoenix Coyotes - Between Scylla and Charybdis
08-27-2010 Part XI: Phoenix Coyotes -- Greetings, Starfighter, You have been selected ...
09-16-2010 Part XII: Phx Coyotes - Still haven't found what I'm looking for
10-12-2010 Part XIII: Phoenix Coyotes - The Final Cut?
10-27-2010 Part XIV: Phoenix Coyotes - To Infinity And Beyond....
12-05-2010 Part XV: Phoenix - the battle of evermore
12-14-2010 Part XVI: Phoenix -- Money for Nothing
12-20-2010 Part XVII: Phoenix -- Thread Title Available For Lease
01-09-2011 Part XVIII: Phoenix -- Imminence Front
01-24-2011 Phoenix XIXth: Nervous Breakdown
02-02-2011 Phoenix XX: Two weeks
02-11-2011 Phoenix XXI: When will then be now?
02-22-2011 Phoenix XXII: It's Now or Never
02-28-2011 Phoenix XXIII - Bond: The Phoenix Project
03-03-2011 Phoenix XXIV: How many twists does the scriptwriter have left?
03-07-2011 Phoenix XXV: Anyone in the theatre seen a pale horse?
03-08-2011 Phoenix XXVI: Pain in the AZ
03-11-2011 Phoenix XXVII: Can we all get along?
03-16-2011 Phoenix XXVIII: Lawyers, Bonds and Money
03-20-2011 Phoenix XXIX: What's the next act? I'm tired of the dog & pony show
03-22-2011 Phoenix Part XXX Hulz, you gotta get a gimmick if you want to get ahead
03-27-2011 Phoenix Part XXXI: I feel I'm in a time loop
04-05-2011 Phoenix Part XXXII: Bridge over Troubled Goldwater
04-14-2011 Phoenix XXXIII: Sound of Silence
04-20-2011 Phoenix XXXIV: Project Mayhem
04-25-2011 Phoenix XXXV: Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave...
05-03-2011 Phoenix XXXVI - There's got to be a morning after
05-10-2011 Phoenix XXXVII - The Heat is On

Followed by the Interregnum between Kings Phoenix the XXXVII-th and Phoenix the XXXVIII-th:

[PYTHON]
The most interesting thing about King Charles, the first
Is that he was 5 foot 6 inches tall at the start of his reign
But only 4 foot 8 inches tall at the end of it because of
Oliver Cromwell, Lord Protector of England Puritan
Born in 1599 and died in 1658 September
[/PYTHON]

06-09-2011 ESPN's Burnside: Hulsizer submitted new deal; COG city manager dragging it out
06-20-2011 Coyotes related: Westgate faces foreclosure
06-21-2011 Phoenix, worst case scenario

Finally, the realm was restored ...

06-27-2011 Phoenix XXXVIII: Hulsizer Pulls Bid For Coyotes
08-16-2011 Phoenix XXXIX: You Never Give Me Your Money
10-18-2011 Phoenix XL: Rich Man's World
12-07-2011 Phoenix XLI: Bongo Fury
01-06-2012 Phoenix XLII: The Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything
02-02-2012 Phoenix XLIII: How to Bake Cupcakes in Less Than Two Weeks
02-28-2012 Phoenix XLIV: Ignorance & Apathy (or I Doan't know & I Doan't Care)
03-28-2012 Phoenix XLV: You can't YANDLE the truth!
04-11-2012 Phoenix XLVI: (Tre)living on a prayer
04-21-2012 Phoenix XLVII: More Threads than Superbowls
05-01-2012 Phoenix XLVIII: Of Mice and Lieberman
05-08-2012 Phoenix XLIX: Smoke & Mirrors
05-21-2012 Phoenix L: AllByDesign?
05-30-2012 Phoenix LI: es, Damn Lies, and Arena Management Fees
06-06-2012 Phoenix LII: Goodnight, Sweet Lieberman
06-08-2012 Phoenix LIII: How the GWInch Stole Phoenix
06-12-2012 Phoenix LIV:E and Let Die
06-19-2012 Phoenix LV: is Has Left the Building
06-26-2012 Phoenix LVI: s is Still Dead (or Maybe Working at a 7-11 in Glendale)
07-04-2012 Phoenix LVII (or MDCCLXXVI): Declarations of (In)Dependence
07-13-2012 Phoenix LVIII; Will jobbing get jobbed?
07-30-2012 Phoenix LIX: The JIG is up?
08-18-2012 Phoenix LX: Pinocchio's Furniture
09-07-2012 Phoenix LXI; We agreed to pay HOW MUCH‽
09-26-2012 Phoenix LXII: Abandon Hope all Ye Who Enter Here
10-16-2012 Phoenix LXIII: Have Become, Comfortably Numb;
11-06-2012 Phoenix LXIV: Will You Still Need Me, Will You Still Read Me, on Thread LXIV?
11-21-2012 Phoenx LXV: The word is... give me a minute.... "Omnishambles"... "Omnishambles"
11-27-2012 Phoenix LXVI: Get Your Kicks On Thread LXVI
12-18-2012 Phoenix LXVII: Route66 - Aftermath
01-15-2013 Phoenix LXVIII - "Watch out for that Tree"
01-25-2013 Phoenix LXIX: Thread of LXIX
01-30-2013 Phoenix LXX: Should they stay or should they go now?
02-01-2013 Phoenix LXXI: Daydream Belever
02-12-2013 Phoenix LXXII: Send in the Clowns
03-14-2013 Phoenix LXXIII: "This Space Available"
04-04-2013 Phoenix LXXIV: Be Seeing You
04-22-2013 Phoenix LXXV: It's Like Deja Vu All Over Again
05-02-3013 Phoenix LXXVI: Renaissance Men
05-13-2013 Phoenix LXXVII: Tired of Waiting For You
05-19-2013 Phoenix LXXVIII: Know When To Hold 'Em, Know When To Fold 'Em
05-25-2013 Phoenix LXXIX: This is The End, We Hope Not
05-29-2013 Phoenix LXXX: Is there another way out?
06-01-2013 Phoenix LXXXI: I'll Gladly Pay You Tuesday for Your Franchise Today!
06-08-2013 Phoenix LXXXII: "Waive Reading Beyond the Title"
06-12-2013 Phoenix LXXXIII: "Stuff's Gonna Happen"
06-14-2013 Phoenix LXXXIV: Planespotting Edition

A couple whole bunch of Phoenix uThreads have popped up in the wake of the "To close, or not to close" mega-thread discussion:

03-16-2012 COG to spend more on Coyotes than public safety?
03-22-2012 Dreger (3/22): NHL to investigate "plan b" for Phoenix
03-23-2012 Sunnicks strikes again "will they stay or will they go now?"
03-28-2012 G&M: Architects of Glendale pro sports disaster won't be around for fallout
03-30-2012 Shoalts: Ice Edge talking about bringing (minor) hockey to the Job should Yotes leave
04-04-2012 Shoalts: Glendale Mayor Scruggs wants city's $$ back
04-05-2012 Coyotes CEO 'confident' team is staying in Glendale
04-05-2012 Puck Daddy: Coyotes battline relocation worries with public optimism
04-06-2012 A strong PHX team in the playoffs may bring a new owner.
04-10-2012 Father of PHX AGM Brad Treliving involved in keeping Coyotes in Glendale?
04-10-2012 PKP offer for Coyotes may be 230 million (mod: to QC w/relo $$)
04-10-2012 Beasley: Coyotes deal within a month
04-11-2012 Glendale, NHL trying to close Phoenix Coyotes deal with Jamison group
04-11-2012 Bettman: no timeline on Phoenix situation (AP)
04-13-2012 Adding up the Numbers in the Phoenix Jamison Bid
04-16-2012 COG's Lieberman calls for demonstration against Coyote deal
04-17-2012 COG - budget payment to Jamison group not to exceed $20m?
04-17-2012 GWI ready to scrutinize new deal
04-18-2012 Coyotes sale soon, five things to watch
04-21-2012 Jamison looking for more investors on Coyotes bid, could be 1-2 months away from deal
04-21-2012 Greg Jamison finally goes public with potential purchase of the Coyotes
04-24-2012 Glendale Busts its Budget; Pledges More Money for Yotes
04-27-2012 Coyotes working to convert bandwagon fans to full time fans
04-28-2-12 4/28: Coyote sale deal getting closer
04-30-2012 Phoenix Coyotes sale finalized May 8th? Hulsizer back in?
05-03-2012 Phoenix CEO/Pres Nealy - something could happen next week
05-04-2012 Feschuk: Phoenix Coyotes doing just fine, thanks
05-04-2012 If the yotes make the finals
05-04-2012 Former Coyotes owner Jerry Moyes assails NHL over Coyotes’ operations
05-07-2012 NHL to announce tentative deal re: sale to Jamison
05-08-2012 Sportsnet: COG promising $306mm over next 21 years
05-08-2012 Wall Street Journal: 'Glendale's Public Hockey Project' = Loss
05-17-2012 Phoenix saga: 5/22 end date
05-17-2012 Jamison signing preliminary sales docs with NHL 5/17 or 5/18
05-21-2012 Goldwater Inst. ready to sue Glendale over arena management deal
05-23-2012 COG council approves preliminary budget with $17m payment for arena management
05-25-2012 Preliminary draft of lease agreement for Jobing.com in hands of COG board
06-04-2012 Phoenix lease details
06-05-2012 Bettmans plan may unravel in Phoenix (vote coming 6/8)
06-06-2012 The angst of Phoenix -- from three major league teams to one (that use city name)
06-06-2012 Forbes: Jamison having trouble raising funds
06-07-2012 GWI letter to Glendale Mayor and Coucilmembers
06-07-2012 Arizona Free Enterprise Club opposes COG deal
06-07-2012 Goldwater Institute Files for Restraining Order
06-11-2012 Coyote name change on hold?
06-13-2012 13 June, Goldwater files suit
06-14-2012 Halverstadt on NHL Home Ice talking Coyotes
06-14-2012 Coyotes deadline "now"? NHL schedule releasing soon
06-15-2012 PBJ: CoG says they'll withstand GWI legal challenge
06-15-2012 AFEC considering ballot (referendum) and COG concil recall
06-18-2012 Phoenix Coyotes, NHL looking for legal counsel to represent team, arena
06-19-2012 Coyotes deal not immediately effective - Referendum to follow?
06-26-2012 COG + GWI agreement on non-emergency status
06-28-2012 Jones/Cobb v Glendale (Coyotes Court Case)
07-04-2012 Coyotes PAC formed
07-04-2012 COG city council candidates voice opposition to Coyotes deal
07-05-2012 Shoalts 7/5 update on Coyotes situation
07-09-2012 Coyotes lease referendum petition not submitted by 7/9
07-11-2012 Glendale rejects group's attempt to overturn sales-tax increase
07-12-2012 PBJ: Jamison group has funding for purchase of Coyotes
07-16-2012 2 COG referendum proponents gearing up for legal battle
07-26-2012 Jones & Cobb decide to NOT file lawsuit after their lease referendum rejected
07-26-2012 PBJ: 7/27 deadline for Coyotes sale?
07-28-2012 PBJ: 7/28: Jamison short $20mm?
07-31-2012 Glendale arena proposal scheduled to expire 7/31, extended another 31 days
08-01-2012 Mayoral candidates speaking out on Coyotes prospective owner
08-08-2012 PBJ: 8/8 Jamison group apparently now has the funds to buy Coyotes
08-10-2012 SBN's Five for Howling: Coyotes sale a done deal
08-16-2012 COG mayoral candidate: Rework proposed lease due to lockout
08-18-2012 CBA uncertainty delaying Coyotes sale?
08-24-2012 8/24: Appeals Court Orders Glendale Sales-Tax Measure to be put Back on Ballot
08-27-2012 8/27 COG extends lease (with NHL) again (pending sale to Jamison group)
08-29-2012 COG seeking change to negotiated proposed arena deal with Jamison
09-04-2012 ESPN Burnside has source that says Jamison's got funding, arena deal to be done
09-11-2012 PBJ: O’odham tribe now involved in Jamison's deal to buy team?
09-29-2012 Final details on Coyotes lease to be settled 10/3?
10-07-2012 Final vote on reworked Jobing.com lease coming 10/23?
10-08-2012 Deja vu, redux = COG talk about extending agreement with NHL another 30 days
11-01-2012 Dater: Phoenix reason for lockout
11-07-2012 Impact of Glendale election on fate of Phoenix Coyotes future
11-26-2012 COG to vote on revised lease 11/27
11-30-2012 Referendum starts process (against) Glendale arena deal with Jamison
12-21-2012 Jamison officially signs Jobing.com lease agreement
12-26-2012 Coyotes could break even, or even profit, if there are no games
12-27-2012 Shoalts: Jamison using US Green Cards to lure investors in Coyotes
01-06-2013 Sportsnet: Jamison group about to finalize Coyotes purchase
01-30-2013 Burnside, LeBrun: Sale of Coyotes to Jamison in Question
01-31-2012 NHL no longer denying relocation a possibility for the Coyotes?
02-01-2013 USA Today's Allen: NHL must continue committment to Phoenix
02-02-2013 Phoenix - Glendale vs Scottsdale
02-08-2013 Grant Woods leading (new) ownership group to (try to) buy Coyotes
02-12-2013 Hulsizer back to looking at buying Coyotes?
03-28-2013 Report: NHL may soon consider relocation for Coyotes; Ice Edge back in picture?
03-29-2013 Bettman: Hey COG, expect something in about a week
04-07-2013 Bettman: Interest in Phoenix franchise "higher than ever"
05-06-2013 Arizona Republic: True cost of running Jobing.com below what COG has paid
05-06-2013 COG Mayor: waiting on NHL to approve owner
05-11-2013 Californian Darin Pastor looking to finalize "premium" purchase of Coyotes
05-27-2013 5/28 NHL, COG, Renaissance meeting in Glendale
05-30-2013 Forbes: Phoenix Coyotes $170 Million Sale To Be Partially Funded By NHL
06-05-2013 4 firms submitted bids to run Jobing.com arena by deadline
06-12-2013 The Hockey News: Will the Coyotes move to Seattle this Summer?
06-13-2013 Glendale announces 4 bidders for Jobing.com management
06-14-2013 Yet another mystery buyer courting Glendale directly

And, hey, why not, for completeness:

03-05-2010 NHL sues Jerry Moyes

 

[Ugmo]

No, through Expansion he's not given the luxury of negotiating. This is the price. You want in? You pay it. Just ask Ron Joyce, one time wannabe franchisee in Hamilton how that worked when he offered $25M instead of the $50M the league was demanding for an Expansion Team. Deny him the option of buying a distressed asset & moving it. This was part of the biggest problem with Balsillie. He wanted to buy the Penguins, Nashville & Phoenix on the cheap, then move them to a Grade 'A' Market.

Wouldn't that imply that the NHL will get from QC what that market is worth? The seller is the same in each case.

It's one thing if you make the case that the NHL will have more options by the time expansion rolls around... but that would surprise me too.

(Not sure if I jumped the gun on this thread... figured the other one would be closed really soon.)

 

[GF]

Why would PKP pay 300+m$ when St-Louis sold for 150m$, Thrashers for 110m+60relo, Habs for 500m$ + one of the best venue in north america. QC is not exactly Montreal... There's no way Qc is worth even close to that imho.

Plus why pay 300m$ expansion fee with so many struggling franchises. If I was PKP, assuming the NHL relocates the Yotes to Seattle, I'd just pass on the (supposedly coming) expansion and wait for a struggling franchise to go belly up.

You guys gotta pass whatever you're smoking, north of 300m$ for expansion? Maybe in Toronto, and even then... QC? Never. I don't believe it. You can have enough money to buy a Ferrari, doesn't mean you're willing to pay Ferrari money for a BMW...

 

[David_99]

I could see them getting $300M for QC, tho.

If that's what they're asking for the Coyotes, I'd LOVE for PKP to turn it down, just to see the headlines.
"New Owner Willing to Put up $1 Million of Own Money for Coyotes Franchise to Keep in Glendale, if City Accepts 1 year, $169M *Subsidanagefee.

2014 Websters Dictionary:
*Subsidanagefee - When a City (or town) pours gasoline all over ones self, while introducing an inflammatory substance (ex. a spark or ego).

 

[DyerMaker66*]

Hope you're right, but I'll believe it when I see it.

The NHL wants that market and has already tried twice. They'll wait a decade or so and try again (imo).

 

[Donwood]

The NHL wants that market and has already tried twice. They'll wait a decade or so and try again (imo).

Atlanta won't get another chance until every other semi viable market is pursued.

 

[cbcwpg]

Atlanta won't get another chance until every other semi viable market is pursued.

1996 quote from Bettman:

Post: It's been said Atlanta and Portland, Ore., are slam dunks for expansion.

Bettman: Would it be great to have Atlanta and Portland and maybe some other cities in this league? Yes, at some point. But there is no list.

Well, Portland never happened, and we all know Bettman doesn't like to be wrong, so maybe one day Atlanta will be back on the radar.

 

[JB52]

If I was PKP, assuming the NHL relocates the Yotes to Seattle, I'd just pass on the (supposedly coming) expansion and wait for a struggling franchise to go belly up.

I'm not a millionaire businessman, but if I was lead to believe that I was on a potential buyer list and that I just have to wait my turn, only to see the franshise move to Seattle because they want me to pay the big expation fee instead of the smaller reloctaion fee, I would go one step further and say screw you NHL. I will invest in the LHJMQ instead.

 

[Major4Boarding]

Refresher of the previous thread's last 2 pages of discussion

He did but it was in the same breath as "maybe we should go somewhere new" ...he was just listing hypotheticals.

You can see a glass as half full or half empty ...

By itself, a little victory..

But, as Killion said, if you relocate to Seattle for $175M and then expand to Toronto and QC for $800M, the league is miles ahead.

It's been said before, but what's the difference? PKP will pay what he's willing to pay. The league already owns the Coyotes, so I see no logic as to why he would supposedly be willing to pay more for an expansion team than for an existing team. In either case he's just negotiating a price with the league itself.

I think this has been mentioned before, but I sometimes wonder if there are mid-level members of the BoG who don't want to see a massive sudden increase in league-wide revenue for payroll purposes.

It is an issue to their bottom line. But it would be a stretch to say the NHL is deliberately fighting to keep teams in weak(er) markets just to keep the payrolls down. If you are a mid-level team it helps to have teams below you I would think.

You know, PKP almost bought the Habs. He wants a hockey team and I don't think he'd mind paying the expansion money for the Coyotes.

QC would sell, as a relocation franchise, somewhere in the neighborhood of 170M to 230M. As an expansion franchise, with the league having much more leverage, yes I could see QC overpaying to about that to get their franchise. I don't know where people get the idea where expansion franchises in Canada are worth 500M a pop. There are only three teams that have that kind of value in the nhl currently. Considering that the Winnipeg Jets sold for 170M, increased their value to 200M after y1, and have probably have increased their value again this year, I think the sale price will be $170M + 60M for relocation or 230M. Also remember that you also have to factor in Phoenix's/Seattle's expected losses into the equation as well. So really, there isn't much of a monetary reason to not go to Quebec right now. People don't overpay by multiples guys...

Why is the expansion team worth more than the existing team - somebody? Anybody? Bueller?

If anything it should be the opposite. The established team comes with a roster of players, existing staff, trademarks, its history, the team equipement, leftover merchandise...etc... expansions start from scratch.

From what I've been reading here the past couple of pages, it's sounding less like "if the Yotes will stay" and more a question of "Where will they go"-it sounds like Bettman was not exactly saying the glass was half full.

EDIT: IN before the thread lock

 

[cbcwpg]

I'm not a millionaire businessman, but if I was lead to believe that I was on a potential buyer list and that I just have to wait my turn, only to see the franshise move to Seattle because they want me to pay the big expation fee instead of the smaller reloctaion fee, I would go one step further and say screw you NHL. I will invest in the LHJMQ instead.

Definitely a tough call. Winnipeg got the Thrashers for being patient, showing the NHL you have a good business plan, having a leaked memo from Bettman basically saying if relocation ever happens Winnipeg should get first crack... but, most importantly, just being at the right place at the right time.

If Bettman had asked TNSE / Winnipeg to pony up $300M - $500M for expansion, well, Winnipeg would never get NHL hockey back, because they were never going to pay that.

For QC, yes it bites to be on the short relocation list and then be told, no you have too much value so we want more from you. It's like buying a car and having to pay more than the other guy because you look like you can pay more. But the question you have to ask... do you turn down what could be your only chance, even if its by expansion?

 

[Ciao]

Why would PKP pay 300+m$ when St-Louis sold for 150m$, Thrashers for 110m+60relo, Habs for 500m$ + one of the best venue in north america. QC is not exactly Montreal... There's no way Qc is worth even close to that imho.

Plus why pay 300m$ expansion fee with so many struggling franchises. If I was PKP, assuming the NHL relocates the Yotes to Seattle, I'd just pass on the (supposedly coming) expansion and wait for a struggling franchise to go belly up.

You guys gotta pass whatever you're smoking, north of 300m$ for expansion? Maybe in Toronto, and even then... QC? Never. I don't believe it. You can have enough money to buy a Ferrari, doesn't mean you're willing to pay Ferrari money for a BMW...

PKP is no fool: he does not overpay for assets. If anything, he always wants to pay less than fmv.

If the NHL wants $300MM to go to QC, it will not be going to QC. Full stop. PKP would let it go to Seattle instead, and maybe that's what the NHL would prefer anyway, even if that brings its' own set of problems.

Kind of makes you wonder when, if ever, the NHL will get some respite from dealing with franchise problems.

 

[Major4Boarding]

Oooops forgot Killion's

$ Now that is what I call a compelling argument for ignoring QC, rather than the alignment and scheduling.

B$NGO. Dont ignore them, just refuse to sell them a team through Relo and on the cheap. Why would you leave $300M+ of completely unencumbered dollars left un-tapped?

Sad but true - altho, I think Hamilton will never get a team. God, I hate Bettman and the NHL.

Well Kevy, as you know Hamiltons' my number one destination period, so sorry Seattle & QC, Markham, but Im firmly in Hamiltons camp here and openly admit my biases. Gross negligence by the NHL since 1985 when Copps opened its doors, literally billions of dollars left un-tapped in southwestern Ontario over the last 28yrs. Easily a top 5 money making machine of a franchise. Im certain the NHL winds up there finally, be it through the implosion of Copps and a massive redevelopment or whatever, that trains coming, cant stop it.

It's been said before, but what's the difference? PKP will pay what he's willing to pay. The league already owns the Coyotes, so I see no logic as to why he would supposedly be willing to pay more for an expansion team than for an existing team. In either case he's just negotiating a price with the league itself.

No, through Expansion he's not given the luxury of negotiating. This is the price. You want in? You pay it. Just ask Ron Joyce, one time wannabe franchisee in Hamilton how that worked when he offered $25M instead of the $50M the league was demanding for an Expansion Team. Deny him the option of buying a distressed asset & moving it. This was part of the biggest problem with Balsillie. He wanted to buy the Penguins, Nashville & Phoenix on the cheap, then move them to a Grade 'A' Market.

Yes, but that just keeps reinforcing the Canadian Ugly Sister complex.

Well, hockey being a religion with the vast majority, you want a seat on the pew, dig, and dig deep. Its all about the $$$. If for example in some crazy upside down world the State of Alabama & Birmingham was beyond hockey-insane, damn straight your going to charge them through the nose when your effectively running a monopoly with the best product on the planet.

 

[Ciao]

. . . For QC, yes it bites to be on the short relocation list and then be told, no you have too much value so we want more from you. It's like buying a car and having to pay more than the other guy because you look like you can pay more. But the question you have to ask... do you turn down what could be your only chance?[/

Yes. PKP would easily pass on that, and no-one could blame him.

The NHL will always have unstable franchises, and one of those will eventually fall his way when the price is right. When franchises are failing, it's a buyer's market.

 

[Killion]

Wouldn't that imply that the NHL will get from QC what that market is worth? The seller is the same in each case. It's one thing if you make the case that the NHL will have more options by the time expansion rolls around... but that would surprise me too.

Well this is whats weird about it Ugmo, as in the past when they opened for Expansion the prices were fixed, set rate, LA paying the same entry fee as Minnesota & so on. So, how do they pull off another Expansion using 2000 teens sensibilities? What criteria? Obviously a Toronto2 would be worth more than a Quebec City or do you use the population of Markham exclusively as your parameters? Because if you did that, then Markham would be at about the same level as Quebec. Same thing with Hamilton. Actual population of Hamilton itself excluding the 2M+ in the surrounding areas is I think like maybe 500,000-600,000 residents. Now, if the average franchise value is app $200M, and take other factors into consideration, then absolutely, I could see the NHL asking $400M for Southern Ontario X's 2 (excluding indemnification fee's) and $300M for QC.

The situation in Winnipeg, using TNSE's purchase of the Thrashers as a measuring stick I dont think is entirely accurate as it was an anomaly, well outside the norm. Comparatively to QC, both markets of equal size, roughly the same in terms of corporate heft, history & so on. A smaller boutique but very much upscale hockey market. So you have to ask yourself, if Winnipeg was confronted with an Expansion prior to procuring the Thrashers and it was the only way in, to join the league, and the Expansion Fee was $300M or even $350M, would TNSE have paid it? I believe they would have. Take the option of buying & relocating a team away, only one way in & thats through Expansion, pay it or have fun in the AHL, ECHL, whatever.... Im just throwin this out there as it may explain what the NHL's thinking is here. The fact is they have a distressed asset that needs to either be sold to someone other than RSE in Phoenix or sell it off-site. If urgent, if indeed they cant stomach another year in Glendale & wait it out, absolutely this is it, then sell it to PKP immediately for what theyve got into it and perhaps a small relo fee. But if concerned with a bigger picture, then maybe they do wait it out, QC earmarked for Expansion instead, free money for all.

Note; I disagree with just about every post above that Winnipeg or QC wouldnt pay $300M for an Expansion Franchise... go figure huh?

 

[Major4Boarding]

Why is a new house sometimes more than an old house?

I don't think this parralel holds... the new house is supposed to be of better quality than the old one and such, sells for more.

A better comparison would be the price of an old house VS the price of an empty field on which you want to build a house using discarded pieces of wood your neighbors let you pick from a pile.

Yeah, that was another poor attempt at humor. Should I have said "Why does a new car cost more than a used one?" then?

Funny thing about land... they stopped making it a long time ago

 

[Ernie]

The idea that TNSE would have paid $350m for the franchise goes against everything they've done so far.

 

[Hawker14]

PKP has been playing the game according to Bettman's rules... quietly, and getting all his ducks in a row. He will be rewarded with the Coyotes when they are relocated... and at a price relative to QC's 700,000 population, as talk of any more than a $200m value for a franchise in QC is crazy, imo.

That's my story, and I'm sticking with it.



Seattle, mystery buyers, Hulsizer, Sherwood, $500 million, CFDs, saving Westgate from the apocalypse ... all just static to distract us from the only issue that matters - this is a business that loses $30 million a year, and nobody that can afford that wants to own the team.

 

[MaskedSonja]

So I guess NHL is waiting for CoG to announce their choice for arena manager, and Daly seems to want the answer sooner than later. Would they have told NHL/RES quietly already that they aren't in the running (assuming the "short list" wasn't enough of a statement)? I'm assuming if RSE isn't in the running, are the Yotes even an afterthought in CoG's mind now? Just wonder if they are waiting for something from the NHL-perhaps the NHL to say "we're pulling out"?

Still seems weird that both sides at this point even seem to "care" about the optics at this point, if indeed this is all done like dinner.

 

[cbcwpg]

So you have to ask yourself, if Winnipeg was confronted with an Expansion prior to procuring the Thrashers and it was the only way in, to join the league, and the Expansion Fee was $300M or even $350M, would TNSE have paid it? I believe they would have.

Not to disagree with you because things do change, but based on a conversation I had with a member of TNSE at a Manitoba Moose game in Orlando of all places ( maybe 1000 people at the game, easy to find another Winnipeger ) , the plan for TNSE, at the time again, was to never pursue an expansion team given what they believed the costs of expansion vs relocation.

They knew first hand that things in the NHL were happening that were going to be putting some franchises at risk that were going to result in relocation possibilities. They set the cornerstone with the NHL and all they had to do was wait. They also assumed that once they had a team, that changes would be coming via the CBA that would help teams like Winnipeg survive. Just based on that conversation, if expansion was the same price as relocation, then for sure, but not when expansion is 2 or 3 times relocation.

Again, things change. Maybe if the Thrashers never moved they would be looking at expansion now. Just doubting it..

 

[LeafShark]

Well this is whats weird about it Ugmo, as in the past when they opened for Expansion the prices were fixed, set rate, LA paying the same entry fee as Minnesota & so on. So, how do they pull off another Expansion using 2000 teens sensibilities? What criteria? Obviously a Toronto2 would be worth more than a Quebec City or do you use the population of Markham exclusively as your parameters? Because if you did that, then Markham would be at about the same level as Quebec. Same thing with Hamilton. Actual population of Hamilton itself excluding the 2M+ in the surrounding areas is I think like maybe 500,000-600,000 residents. Now, if the average franchise value is app $200M, and take other factors into consideration, then absolutely, I could see the NHL asking $400M for Southern Ontario X's 2 (excluding indemnification fee's) and $300M for QC.

The situation in Winnipeg, using TNSE's purchase of the Thrashers as a measuring stick I dont think is entirely accurate as it was an anomaly, well outside the norm. Comparatively to QC, both markets of equal size, roughly the same in terms of corporate heft, history & so on. A smaller boutique but very much upscale hockey market. So you have to ask yourself, if Winnipeg was confronted with an Expansion prior to procuring the Thrashers and it was the only way in, to join the league, and the Expansion Fee was $300M or even $350M, would TNSE have paid it? I believe they would have. Take the option of buying & relocating a team away, only one way in & thats through Expansion, pay it or have fun in the AHL, ECHL, whatever.

At the end of the day, the purchase of the Jets was a business decision, not one done solely for the love of the city. $350 is simply too much. Quebec City attempting to buy the Coyotes is another business decision very much like the Coyotes. When you line up the parameters around the move to Winnipeg, and the potential move to Quebec City, there are more similarities than differences. You can also look at forbes valuations of NHL teams as a rough guide.

http://www.forbes.com/nhl-valuations/

There are only 8 teams according to Forbes that are worth more than 300M

Toronto
New York
Montreal
Chicago
Boston
Detroit
Vancouver
Philadelphia

Even Hamilton might balk at a $350M+ expansion fee (not including indemnification and other costs).

 

[Killion]

PKP is no fool: he does not overpay for assets. If anything, he always wants to pay less than fmv.... If the NHL wants $300MM to go to QC, it will not be going to QC. Full stop. PKP would let it go to Seattle instead, and maybe that's what the NHL would prefer anyway, even if that brings its' own set of problems.

Of course, who doesnt?... So have fun in your brand new state of the art arena with the AHL, ECHL & or QMJHL franchises, and good luck with that TVA dealeo PKP. Bet the sponsors'll be lining up to pay NHL rates for minor league & junior hockey.... look, the Dude was willing to drop I think it was $525M on the Montreal Canadiens. Big Fish. The NHL's not about to let this guy in cheap nor do I believe are they willing nor wanting to cut the line & let him go. Theyd love to have a franchise back in QC. Fabulous. Marvellous. Rivalries with Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Boston, New York, Jersey, Vancouver, you name it. French language all sports cable network coast-coast. Merchandising sales. On & on & on. Brilliant. But guess what? Worth a Hell of a lot more than $170M. And that monies spoken for. So what are you going to do about it? Sell him an Expansion Franchise, maximize profit. To the other 29 clubs he's essentially getting in for free as they'll not see a nickel of that $170M. You think Bettman's going to have fun explaining that away after Winnipeg?

 

[Cryogenic Man]

PKP has been playing the game according to Bettman's rules... quietly, and getting all his ducks in a row. He will be rewarded with the Coyotes when they are relocated... and at a price relative to QC's 700,000 population, as talk of any more than a $200m value for a franchise in QC is crazy, imo.

That's my story, and I'm sticking with it.

That right there is smart talk. This is business, and as a good business man you price things accordingly.

If it were Markham, I'd expect the price to be different, higher. Not Quebec.

$230M including the relocation fee is good enough.

 

[Undertakerqc]

PKP has been playing the game according to Bettman's rules... quietly, and getting all his ducks in a row. He will be rewarded with the Coyotes when they are relocated... and at a price relative to QC's 700,000 population, as talk of any more than a $200m value for a franchise in QC is crazy, imo.

That's my story, and I'm sticking with it.



Seattle, mystery buyers, Hulsizer, Sherwood, $500 million, CFDs, saving Westgate from the apocalypse ... all just static to distract us from the only issue that matters - this is a business that loses $30 million a year, and nobody that can afford that wants to own the team.

PKp has been readying for years, the city is ready. Renovation of the Colisée ''appel d'offre (dont know the word in english)'' are ready to be selected. They are ready for a short notice turn around. To me its obvious taht if they move this year its to QC. Its to late in the spring for Seattle to be ready in time for the season.

 

[Killion]

...Just based on that conversation, if expansion was the same price as relocation, then for sure, but not when expansion is 2 or 3 times relocation.

Ya, Chipmans one very shrewd operator. A lot of respect for that guy as he was paying serious attention, scoped it out, understood the faults in the 04/05 CBA etc, had it all dialled in & played it like a real pro, absolutely getting the upper hand on the NHL, beating them at their own game, closing the deal, winning the game. Thats World Class that is. Circled from on high like an Eagle, spotted the weak but didnt just dive in for the kill, but heres the thing... based on what I know of his business plan (and developments around the MTS) Im certain that he'd have received the backing from David Thomson to have seriously upped the stakes with city backing (incl possible prov support that would have been provided) if the only way in was via Expansion, another $120M required.

Even Hamilton might balk at a $350M+ expansion fee (not including indemnification and other costs).

I doubt that very VERY much LeafShark. I could easily see someone dropping $500M including indemnification fee's and another $250M on an arena (with government bucks thrown in). No problem. Be it Hamilton or Markham. Roustan, Balsillie, Gagliardi at one time, those are the kinds of numbers that were (still are) being tossed around.