Phoenix LII: Goodnight, Sweet Lieberman

[CasualFan]

The problem is all inside your books

These thread intros are pure gold.

 

[Nordskull]

http://goldwaterinstitute.org/article/letter-mayor-and-councilmembers-glendale

Dear Mayor Scruggs and City Councilmembers:

As the City considers a deal that will add substantially to its existing financial obligations, at a time when it is overloaded with debt and has had to cut city services and lay off city workers, we hope the Council will carefully consider the following questions:
I. What is the actual cost of managing Jobing.com Arena, minus the capital expenses for which the City remains liable under the proposed agreement? If the agreement is challenged under the Gift Clause, a court will look to the difference between actual management costs and the amount the City is obligated to pay to determine whether the agreement is a subsidy. The Council should insist on knowing those numbers so that it can determine whether the agreement is lawful and fair to the taxpayers.
II. The City also is giving the arena manager parking rights. In the previous proposed deal with Matthew Hulsizer, the City valued parking rights at approximately $100 million over a specified period, and used those estimates to issue bonds. The Council should be informed of the value of the parking rights that are being transferred and the basis of that value, as part of the assessment of whether the agreement includes an illegal subsidy and is fair to taxpayers.
III. We understand that the Tohono O'odham Nation has offered once again to partner with the City to relieve some of the financial obligations related to the arena. We are not aware that there has been any formal analysis of alternative Arena uses or a request for competitive bids for Arena management. We hope that the Council will explore all options before it exposes taxpayers to substantial additional long-term financial obligations.
IV. We understand the Council is considering adopting the deal as an "emergency" measure, which would deprive Glendale citizens of their right to refer the matter to a vote. As you know, the circumstances justifying an emergency declaration are limited. Given that the City apparently has been negotiating this proposal for quite some time, and the dire financial condition the City is in, denying citizens their right of referral seems inappropriate.

We hope that these inquiries will assist the Council in its deliberations over the proposed deal. We further urge you to not to rush to a vote. The terms of the 100-page proposal were released to the public for the first time on Monday, and not all the exhibits and associated documents have been released yet. There should be an adequate public comment period after all the documents have been released, particularly when they commit substantial public resources over many years.



Sincerely,

Darcy Olsen



cc: Craig Tindall, Ed Beasley

 

[GKJ]

Here comes the pain

 

[Killion]

I am not well versed in Quebec City...

...pretty much "up to speed". Joe Taxpayer shoulders AC costs, viable AM firm & anchor tenant more than covers debt visa-vie naming rights, taxation etc. Cost benefits equate. The only way the formula works in Glendale is if somehow GJ taps new revenue streams and another 1, possibly 2 anchors with minimum 10-20 dates each while filling the place with concert/event & consumer/trade shows. Ticket prices have to go up, paid pkg, corporate sponsorships etc, extremely aggressive plans executed. I believe its doable... eventually, buying Westgate, re-enjoining the development to the arena, franchise. CFD.

 

[OthmarAmmann]

Wait, this the Quebec City thread?

My guess is that the arena in QC will be only one more in a proud history of fiscal disasters HOWEVER the market dynamics make far more sense than they do in Glendale. The Quebec City market is certainly not saturated with competing venues in the way that greater Phoenix is, and the venue that is there is desperately in need of replacement, NHL tenant or not.

MTS Centre's support is less than modest compared to Glendale. The city and province certainly aren't emptying their reserve funds, laying off a significant portion of their workforce, raising sales and property taxes, and ruining their credit rating as a result.

 

[metalfoot]

Goldwater Institute looks like they are interested indeed. Just asking questions, but loaded questions!

 

[halligan10]

Just a note here.

Don't compare Jamison and co (we still don't know where the money comes from) to Quebecor, which is held at 45% by a public corporation. Benefits to Quebecor, coming from the hockey team exploitation to TV, advertising, will come at least in part in the peoples pockets.

Compare this to Jamison's racket is absolutly useless and inappropriate.

Im not comparing Quebecor with Jamison. I think PKP would chase me down if I would do so lol....I was just trying to give the correct numbers so the people that are unfamiliar with the Quebec City arena project can see the difference in numbers.

 

[halligan10]

Wait, this the Quebec City thread?

My guess is that the arena in QC will be only one more in a proud history of fiscal disasters HOWEVER the market dynamics make far more sense than they do in Glendale. The Quebec City market is certainly not saturated with competing venues in the way that greater Phoenix is, and the venue that is there is desperately in need of replacement, NHL tenant or not.

MTS Centre's support is less than modest compared to Glendale. The city and province certainly aren't emptying their reserve funds, laying off a significant portion of their workforce, raising sales and property taxes, and ruining their credit rating as a result.

Can you please explain why you think that its going to be a disaster? No sarcasms I am just curious and open to different opinions.

 

[Dado]

Don't compare Jamison and co (we still don't know where the money comes from) to Quebecor, which is held at 45% by a public corporation.

WHAT?!

In addition to the equivalent of a $10M a year subsidy, the arena operator and team owner is a PUBLIC COMPANY receiving well over $100M a year in taxpayer subsidies?

Good grief.

Glass ****ing houses indeed.

 

[Nordskull]

WHAT?!

In addition to the equivalent of a $10M a year subsidy, the arena operator and team owner is a PUBLIC COMPANY receiving well over $100M a year in taxpayer subsidies?

Good grief.

Glass ****ing houses indeed.

Thanks for your analysis !!!

Good evening in BC!

 

[Nordskull]

Im not comparing Quebecor with Jamison. I think PKP would chase me down if I would do so lol....I was just trying to give the correct numbers so the people that are unfamiliar with the Quebec City arena project can see the difference in numbers.

Why not navigate though the gigantic mass of information on Quebec city web site?

I don't have time to translate for you, it would be a huge work.

Explore, search, Qc's arena deal with Quebecor have nothing to do with Glendale's jobing.

 

[Merci*]

WHAT?!

In addition to the equivalent of a $10M a year subsidy, the arena operator and team owner is a PUBLIC COMPANY receiving well over $100M a year in taxpayer subsidies?

Good grief.

Glass ****ing houses indeed.

The money is to build an arena I thought...and for sake of your argument on the Quebec thread under pressure this is the Phoenix thread.

The Coyotes are playing in a glass house that is still being funded at Ill assume 20 million yearly and tacking on 17 million more a year to subsidize the team future owner. That is the difference here. Money spent to build an arena vs money spent to provide welfare to a team.

 

[Nordskull]

http://www.ville.quebec.qc.ca/temp/amphitheatre/index.aspx

Plenty of info here ... even for my friend Dado

 

[Whileee]

http://goldwaterinstitute.org/article/letter-mayor-and-councilmembers-glendale

Im not sure if this was posted yet. If so just ignore it

The irony is delicious. The GWI is suggesting that the transfer of the parking rights to the new Coyotes owner and arena operator should be considered as part of the consideration of a subsidy. They pointedly refer to the city's previous calculation of the value of these parking rights at $100 million. Lovely.

 

[Merci*]

Thanks for your analysis !!!

Good evening in BC!

Why is everyone on this thread so angry the Quebec is funding an arean no different the how Glendale did?

 

[Whileee]

These thread intros are pure gold.

I fully agree. It's almost worth burning through a thread to see what kdb will come up with next. Bravo!

 

[halligan10]

Why not navigate though the gigantic mass of information on Quebec city web site?

I don't have time to translate for you, it would be a huge work.

Explore, search, Qc's arena deal with Quebecor have nothing to do with Glendale's jobing.

You dont have to translate anything i grew up 3 streets away from le colise de quebec in the good old Basse Ville! Im not saying the deal in quebec has anything to do with glendale. Whats your point? I was just giving numbers and also stating that quebec has a way better deal than glendale even without a hockey team.

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

Ha! GWI has a sense of humor after all.

 

[Whileee]

Ha! GWI has a sense of humor after all.

Yup... they just forgot the when referring to the $100 million parking subsidy.

 

[Nordskull]

You dont have to translate anything i grew up 3 streets away from le colise de quebec in the good old Basse Ville! Im not saying the deal in quebec has anything to do with glendale. Whats your point? I was just giving numbers and also stating that quebec has a way better deal than glendale even without a hockey team.

I am not trying to make a point.

I am saying all the info is somewhere easy to find. But the city's web is in french.

That's all I am saying.

 

[halligan10]

I am not trying to make a point.

I am saying all the info is somewhere easy to find. But the city's web is in french.

That's all I am saying.

Not a prob lets keep having fun in here :p

 

[Killion]

The irony is delicious. Lovely.

...well put Whileee. I just read that & could clearly hear the gloves hit the floor.

 

[kdb209]

I fully agree. It's almost worth burning through a thread to see what kdb will come up with next. Bravo!

 

[Nordskull]

Not a prob lets keep having fun in here :p

Thats the problem with the virtual world. We exchange text messages without the ability to give a real intonation.

cheers

 

[Gotaf7]

Hey Dado name me one team that built their arena with their own money!