Phoenix LII: Goodnight, Sweet Lieberman

Brodie · Jun 6, 2012

Do your thing, kdp

CasualFan · Jun 6, 2012

So we didn't get butt cancer?

Howler Scores · Jun 6, 2012

CasualFan said:
So we didn't get butt cancer?

Results pending

madhi19 · Jun 6, 2012

CasualFan said:
So we didn't get butt cancer?

You sound disappointed! loll

Brodie · Jun 6, 2012

Title can be changed!

MNNumbers · Jun 6, 2012

Seeing that it's Ed Beasley who is retiring, I suggest changing to

"Good night, Ed."

Killion · Jun 6, 2012

Brodie said:
Title can be changed!

...aye, the real ones been stolen by "The Pole". Being held for ransom. Best we call in DI Charlie Buggy of Scotland Yards Flying Squad, Pickles the Dog. The Baggies trophys gone missing. Dennis Waterman wrote & unfortunately sang a song about it. Why cant that guy just stick to acting Brodie?.

Dado · Jun 6, 2012

As I understand it, the $400M construction cost of the QC arena is going to be borne by the city and the province. In just ballpark figures, that's roughly equivalent to a $20M/year subsidy to the arena operator, assuming 25-ish year lifespan, relatively low interest rate environment, blah blah blah.

As I understand the leasing arrangement, there will be approximately $5M a year in direct arena rental fees, and approximately $5M a year in surchages/merch-cut/etc.

That would seem to leave a net annual subsidy to the lease operator of approximately $10M a year...? (All numbers approximate.)

If a hockey hot bed like QC requires a $10M/yr government subsidy to support an NHL team, I'm not sure $15M-$20M is completely out of line for a market-growing location like Arizona...?

Merci* · Jun 6, 2012

Dado said:
As I understand it, the $400M construction cost of the QC arena is going to be borne by the city and the province. In just ballpark figures, that's roughly equivalent to a $20M/year subsidy to the arena operator, assuming 25-ish year lifespan, relatively low interest rate environment, blah blah blah.

As I understand the leasing arrangement, there will be approximately $5M a year in direct arena rental fees, and approximately $5M a year in surchages/merch-cut/etc.

That would seem to leave a net annual subsidy to the lease operator of approximately $10M a year...? (All numbers approximate.)

If a hockey hot bed like QC requires a $10M/yr government subsidy to support an NHL team, I'm not sure $15M-$20M is completely out of line for a market-growing location like Arizona...?

The money is to build the arena not fund the team. You are assuming and that is the key word. When you build a house for 400 million, you pay back the loan for 20 million yearly to the bank not your wife who manages the house. Again apples to oranges. You arent factoring in the size of Quebec City and that unlike Glendale who competes with other arenas locally Quebec is the only show in town to attract other events. Nice try but your assumption is dead wrong.

How was the arena orginally funded in Glendale? It that above and beyond the 17 million they are going to pay the new owner in Glendale?

Dado · Jun 6, 2012

Merci said:
The money is to build the arena not fund the team.

If the team is not paying enough to cover the building loan, then it is in effect a subsidy to the team.

I don't believe anybody, least of all me, has suggested the Arizona situation is anything but a subsidy.

Merci* · Jun 6, 2012

Dado said:
If the team is not paying enough to cover the building loan, then it is in effect a subsidy to the team.

I don't believe anybody, least of all me, has suggested the Arizona situation is anything but a subsidy.

How much was the arena in Glendale? If it is a subisdy to the team to build an arena then it has happened all over the United States when new ones were built. Seriously this is your argument? Nice try.... cute though...

kdb209 · Jun 6, 2012

CasualFan · Jun 6, 2012

Dado said:
As I understand it, the $400M construction cost of the QC arena is going to be borne by the city and the province. In just ballpark figures, that's roughly equivalent to a $20M/year subsidy to the arena operator, assuming 25-ish year lifespan, relatively low interest rate environment, blah blah blah.

As I understand the leasing arrangement, there will be approximately $5M a year in direct arena rental fees, and approximately $5M a year in surchages/merch-cut/etc.

That would seem to leave a net annual subsidy to the lease operator of approximately $10M a year...? (All numbers approximate.)

If a hockey hot bed like QC requires a $10M/yr government subsidy to support an NHL team, I'm not sure $15M-$20M is completely out of line for a market-growing location like Arizona...?

I am not well versed in Quebec City Arena (one out-of-market disaster is enough of a hobby for me). However, my understanding is that Quebecor pays $2.5MM to the city to be the arena manager ($4.5MM if there is an NHL team as a tenant). Quebecor gets all arena revenues. Also, Quebecor paid something around $30MM for naming rights to the building and will put in another $30.5MM for naming rights if they have an NHL team as a tenant.

The city put up around $400MM for construction. (I have no idea what the debt financing structure is). In return they get the $30MM for naming rights plus $2.5MM a year in rent payments from Quebecor. If there is an NHL tenant, those numbers change to $60.5MM for naming and $4.5MM per year in rent.

I do not see that as comparable to Glendale, where the city is already on the hook for the construction cost (as is Quebec) but in Glendale instead of getting money from the arena operator, they pay Jamison $17MM or $20MM or $18MM or blah blah blah. When the city of Quebec begins paying Quebecor to manage the arena instead of getting money from Quebecor to manage the arena, then it will be comparable.

Or, put simply:
- Quebec has the standard pro sports subsidy. City pays $400MM to construct arena, team pays token rent and keeps all profits from the arena.
- Glendale has the WTF pro sport subsidy. City already paid $180MM to construct arena. Then they paid team $50MM over last two years. Now they pay $385MM more to the team/arena operator. Team pays token rent and keeps all profits from arena.

Dado · Jun 6, 2012

CasualFan said:
- Quebec has the standard pro sports subsidy.

Agreed. That subsidy appears to on the order of low 8-figures a year.

Glendale has the WTF pro sport subsidy

Inclined to agree there, too. That subsidy appears to be on the order of mid 8-figures a year.

There's a GBShaw joke in there somewhere, I'm sure. :laugh:

I wouldn't even call that "WTF" territory, really, if it weren't for the fact that CoG is carrying it alone, whereas in QC, they're splitting the burden with Montrealers (who I am sure are thrilled about their taxes paying for a new Nordique team).

But seriously, y'all trying to pick fights where there are none.

TheLegend · Jun 6, 2012

Merci said:
How much was the arena in Glendale? If it is a subisdy to the team to build an arena then it has happened all over the United States when new ones were built. Seriously this is your argument? Nice try.... cute though...

Why not??

There's been more than one individual here who has used the argument that governments shouldn't be subsidizing construction of faciilities for private interests.

Should have seen the shock and denial when the Winnipeg Free Press ran a story that showed TNSE got government aid in getting MTS Centre built.

Merci* · Jun 6, 2012

Dado said:
Agreed. That subsidy appears to on the order of low 8-figures a year.

Inclined to agree there, too. That subsidy appears to be on the order of mid 8-figures a year.

There's a GBShaw joke in there somewhere, I'm sure. I wouldn't even call that "WTF" territory, really, if it weren't for the fact that CoG is carrying it alone, whereas in QC, they're splitting the burden with Montrealers (who I am sure are thrilled about their taxes paying for a new Nordique team).

But seriously, y'all trying to pick fights where there are none.

I guess the proof will be if Quebec gets an NHL team how much revenue they produce. Time will tell. Sooner then we think.

Merci* · Jun 6, 2012

TheLegend said:
Why not??

There's been more than one individual here who has used the argument that governments shouldn't be subsidizing construction of faciilities for private interests.

Should have seen the shock and denial when the Winnipeg Free Press ran a story that showed TNSE got government aid in getting MTS Centre built.

So you are saying without the aid the team wouldn't survive financially in the long run and would produce a loss in revenue year after year? I am trying to understand the logic behind the comments.

Again the funding of arena and ball parks happens all over the US. I am confused why trying to pinpoint Quebec as different has anything to do with the sale of Phoenix to Quebec...(jk)

CasualFan · Jun 6, 2012

TheLegend said:
Why not??

There's been more than one individual here who has used the argument that governments shouldn't be subsidizing construction of faciilities for private interests.

Should have seen the shock and denial when the Winnipeg Free Press ran a story that showed TNSE got government aid in getting MTS Centre built.

There are some awfully glass houses around. With all these rocks flying everywhere, something is bound to get broken.

For the record, in the Bay Area (except those crazy Santa Clarans), we TIF or PILOT our facilities. Which makes it a much more balanced public-private partnership.

ebergeron · Jun 6, 2012

CasualFan said:
The city put up around $400MM for construction. (I have no idea what the debt financing structure is). In return they get the $30MM for naming rights plus $2.5MM a year in rent payments from Quebecor. If there is an NHL tenant, those numbers change to $60.5MM for naming and $4.5MM per year in rent.

The city does not put up 400M$. Quebec City was supposed to put 180M$ but because of the tax return that amount should go down to about 130M$ for the city.

There is a 200M$ coming from the provincial government, and another 20M$ or so from J'ai ma place (people and companies buying rights to buy tickets in priority, for life).

On top of that, Peladeau pays about 40M$ on top of the 400M$ to accommodate his TV studios.

CHRDANHUTCH · Jun 6, 2012

TheLegend said:
Why not??

There's been more than one individual here who has used the argument that governments shouldn't be subsidizing construction of faciilities for private interests.

Should have seen the shock and denial when the Winnipeg Free Press ran a story that showed TNSE got government aid in getting MTS Centre built.

that's Misinformation right there, Legend, TNSE wasn't even given an opportunity to even keep the Coyotes NOR did they exist whe the Original Jets were sold.

CasualFan · Jun 6, 2012

djvoiz said:
The city does not put up 400M$. Quebec City was supposed to put 180M$ but because of the tax return that amount should go down to about 130M$ for the city.

There is a 200M$ coming from the provincial government, and another 20M$ or so from J'ai ma place (people and companies buying rights to buy tickets in priority, for life).

On top of that, Peladeau pays about 40M$ on top of the 400M$ to accommodate his TV studios.

*public contribution is about $400MM. Divide between the city and state ... errrrrr, providence ... anyway you want.

Nordskull · Jun 6, 2012

....

just a quick note on Montrealer paying taxes for a Nordiques arena.

GOOD FOR THEM

They are always whining, expressing themselves, asking moneythey are left minded, I don't like hem ..AT ALL.

I dream to separate MTL from MY province.

Oh, don't worry, they will hit my bank account for the 1MM (yes, 1MM) Olympic stadium new top. They must change it .... again.

They don't need your sympathy.

halligan10 · Jun 6, 2012

CasualFan said:
I am not well versed in Quebec City Arena (one out-of-market disaster is enough of a hobby for me). However, my understanding is that Quebecor pays $2.5MM to the city to be the arena manager ($4.5MM if there is an NHL team as a tenant). Quebecor gets all arena revenues. Also, Quebecor paid something around $30MM for naming rights to the building and will put in another $30.5MM for naming rights if they have an NHL team as a tenant.

The city put up around $400MM for construction. (I have no idea what the debt financing structure is). In return they get the $30MM for naming rights plus $2.5MM a year in rent payments from Quebecor. If there is an NHL tenant, those numbers change to $60.5MM for naming and $4.5MM per year in rent.

I do not see that as comparable to Glendale, where the city is already on the hook for the construction cost (as is Quebec) but in Glendale instead of getting money from the arena operator, they pay Jamison $17MM or $20MM or $18MM or blah blah blah. When the city of Quebec begins paying Quebecor to manage the arena instead of getting money from Quebecor to manage the arena, then it will be comparable.

Or, put simply:
- Quebec has the standard pro sports subsidy. City pays $400MM to construct arena, team pays token rent and keeps all profits from the arena.
- Glendale has the WTF pro sport subsidy. City already paid $180MM to construct arena. Then they paid team $50MM over last two years. Now they pay $385MM more to the team/arena operator. Team pays token rent and keeps all profits from arena.

Quebec city was suposed to pay 200mm. But "Jai ma place" will be giving about 30mm(this money is from seats/suites already sold to future fans that already bought the seat), they are also getting around 60mm for the name of the arena sold to PKP and about 40-50mm from PKP to build 3D'S studios, TV room etc.. So the city is investing around 60-80MM. The province is paying 200mm.

PKP as you said is paying a yearly rent to managed the arena. Plus he is giving a pourcentage of about 5% from the profits meaning the more Concert they have the better it is for the city. Also an NHL team would help for the city to pay back the investment. Perhaps even without an NHL team, PKP is still paying the city a management fee...I think its pretty good deal for the city. Way different than Glendale. Not that Quebec city is any better. Glendale was vere badlucky with the housing market and the fans not showing up to the games. Also the numbers I just gave are approx but close enough

halligan10 · Jun 6, 2012

http://goldwaterinstitute.org/article/letter-mayor-and-councilmembers-glendale

Im not sure if this was posted yet. If so just ignore it :sarcasm:

Nordskull · Jun 6, 2012

halligan10 said:
Quebec city was suposed to pay 200mm. But "Jai ma place" will be giving about 30mm(this money is from seats/suites already sold to future fans that already bought the seat), they are also getting around 60mm for the name of the arena sold to PKP and about 40-50mm from PKP to build 3D'S studios, TV room etc.. So the city is investing around 60-80MM. The province is paying 200mm.

PKP as you said is paying a yearly rent to managed the arena. Plus he is giving a pourcentage of about 5% from the profits meaning the more Concert they have the better it is for the city. Also an NHL team would help for the city to pay back the investment. Perhaps even without an NHL team, PKP is still paying the city a management fee...I think its pretty good deal for the city. Way different than Glendale. Not that Quebec city is any better. Glendale was vere badlucky with the housing market and the fans not showing up to the games. Also the numbers I just gave are approx but close enough

Just a note here.

Don't compare Jamison and co (we still don't know where the money comes from) to Quebecor, which is held at 45% by a public corporation. Benefits to Quebecor, coming from the hockey team exploitation to TV, advertising, will come at least in part in the peoples pockets.

Compare this to Jamison's racket is absolutly useless and inappropriate.

Phoenix LII: Goodnight, Sweet Lieberman

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