Phoenix CXXXIV: 3 Sheets To The Wind

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MNNumbers

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That's just it...... "seems to"..... except it isn't the same. Everyone knows there are losses. But nobody knows whether or not those "bottom line losses" are at a level that Barroway (or the league) can't tolerate.

Yet those different loss numbers "seem to" always be the thing being tossed around here like mud. So much so the walls have become ten feet thick with them.

Think I'll go find where Feckless went....

I'll quote this and run through my version of the calculation again. These are NOT gospel. They are meant to be "ballpark"

First, NHL owned the team for 4 years before they sold to IA. They asked Glendale for 25M twice in that time, so I am going to call 25M the 'average losse' for those 4 years. Here we go....

Initial purchase price: 140M out of BK
Losses for 2 of the 4 years NHL owned the team (other 2 years covered by Glendale): 25M *2 = 50M, except that one of those was a lockout year, so I will discount this to 40M
Now, IA ownership......
2013-14....Admitted 35M in losses, 15 of which was claimed to be solely as result of a contract buyout. 35M
14-15. No contract buyout, but slightly higher player costs, and maybe some interest. I would say 22M
At this point IA lost the 15M/yr AMF with Glendale. And, the FIG debt was retired. At this point, I am going to begin including interest in the calculation, because I am sure that the league is not paying with their own cash....Let's assume they get 4% money.... Total debt load at this point....237M or so.
My best calculations suggest that, since they were still managing the arena, for the next year, they were only out about 5M more than the year before. Thus:
15-16. Since the prior year was about 20M, this one would be about 25M + interest. Let's put the interest in a separate place. 237M at 4% is about 9M. Total debt load: 262 (+9)
16-17. No AMF at all. Another 5M down the drain. That makes losses about 30M + interest. Interest now about 10M. Total investment load: 292 (+19)
17-18. Same as 16-17. 30M + interest, but that interest would now be about 12M. Total: 322 (+31).
And, there is a 16M discount for the Vegas expansion fee.

So, I'm trying to be fair here. These numbers are NOT golden, of course. But, I think they must be pretty close.
They suggest about 30M year in losses.
I'm assuming there is interest to be paid on that as well.
And, a total of about 340M already sink into the team.

But, here's the other side. I'm trying to positive in those calculations. They could easily be off by a total of 50M too low, and in that case the total investment is about 400M.

Count more of the same for next year and it MIGHT (notice I said might) be 450M or more.

At that point, the value of the franchise is NOT keeping up with the load on it. And, that's why some of us think that next year is very important for the future in the Phoenix area.
 

Killion

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Count more of the same for next year and it MIGHT (notice I said might) be 450M or more.

At that point, the value of the franchise is NOT keeping up with the load on it. And, that's why some of us think that next year is very important for the future in the Phoenix area.

Right. This too something I'm working from, basing much of what might happen, what the timing might be before she becomes so completely overweight & overburdened she sinks under her massive weight of debt, tied to the dock, still stuck in port all these years later. Each & every day, every season talking on more & more water, more debt... Still afloat & at least looking proud. Entirely superficial though. Below decks I'm sure a whole other matter. I'd give it another 2-3 seasons if needs be and it looks like they be because if Fertitta was game at the price required to get her out of hock... pretty sure that franchise would be gone by now. I'm of the opinion therefore that she could well be headed for Seattle if no change locally, and there wont be, no change in Tilman Fertittas position with respect to price & likely terms, other issues possibly as well but no need to be expounding on those here. All conjecture, speculation... just as are our numbers, opinions.
 
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mesamonster

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Realistically, the $12M figure isn't far fetched. I mean Coyotes were, at some point, getting $15M per year from Glendale to ''manage'' the arena. Seems like a good number to cover all loses and then some.

That was back then, the increase in the salary cap without a corresponding jump in the overall team revenues would suggest the losses are higher now than in the earlier years when they were getting the COG subsidy. I might also add that the debt now associated with the franchise is substantially higher and with it higher interest expense.
 

Llama19

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This is OT for this thread a bit but related... it seems my Nashville bedroom community of Murfreesboro, TN is going to employ former Az 'Yotes and City of Glendale, Az general counsel as its City Manager. What sort of shenanigans should I expect from this dude? Craig Tindall accepts city manager appointment from Murfreesboro City Council

Keep a close eye on your taxpayer wallet... ;)

In other arena news...I do not think this will work for Mr Barroway... :sarcasm:

To quote:


"The North Phoenix Gateway Village Planning Committee recently gave their unanimous blessing to plans for the development of a 174,000-square-foot sports arena, with a vision of an accompanying hotel and restaurant. Developers see the arena as a destination for indoor sports such as hockey, figure skating, soccer, basketball, volleyball, lacrosse and even curling. Current and emerging sports leagues can look forward to a first-class facility with locker rooms, spectator seating, and amenities for visiting teams."

Source: deervalleytimes.com/growing-ice-in-the-desert/
 
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Killion

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SavageSteve

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Oh my..... ditto what Llama said but then your already aware of that Steve. :laugh:
The city of Murfreesboro already ditched it's last City Manager after the police HQ went $30M over budget, and he didn't alert the city council of the overruns the general contractor ordered to build the facility to spec... So I guess it couldn't get a lot worse for the taxpayer wallet since Glendale at least got a lot of bad hockey to watch rather than have cops write up tickets to pay for their digs...
 
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Killion

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The city of Murfreesboro already ditched it's last City Manager after the police HQ went $30M over budget, and he didn't alert the city council of the overruns the general contractor ordered to build the facility to spec... So I guess it couldn't get a lot worse for the taxpayer wallet since Glendale at least got a lot of bad hockey to watch rather than have cops write up tickets to pay for their digs...

Geebus thats nasty. Cops & ticket quotas. Ya. Wanted to avoid driving through Murfreesboro I'm sure... if you had the option.
 
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wpgallday1960

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Keep a close eye on your taxpayer wallet... ;)

In other arena news...I do not think this will work for Mr Barroway... :sarcasm:

To quote:


"The North Phoenix Gateway Village Planning Committee recently gave their unanimous blessing to plans for the development of a 174,000-square-foot sports arena, with a vision of an accompanying hotel and restaurant. Developers see the arena as a destination for indoor sports such as hockey, figure skating, soccer, basketball, volleyball, lacrosse and even curling. Current and emerging sports leagues can look forward to a first-class facility with locker rooms, spectator seating, and amenities for visiting teams."

Source: deervalleytimes.com/growing-ice-in-the-desert/
"Even curling", LOL!! As a curler I don't know whether to laugh or be insulted. Another winter sport that will have fans flocking away from the Coyotes, bet on it!!!:sarcasm:
 

TheLegend

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"Even curling", LOL!! As a curler I don't know whether to laugh or be insulted. Another winter sport that will have fans flocking away from the Coyotes, bet on it!!!:sarcasm:

Curling isn’t new here. :rolleyes:

But the recent success of the US team in the Olympics brought some attention to it.
 

wpgallday1960

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Curling isn’t new here. :rolleyes:

But the recent success of the US team in the Olympics brought some attention to it.
Before you roll your eyes, if I were to talk to 100 random Phoenicians, how many would be familiar with curling? I'll take your word for it since you're a resident.

Plus I wasn't mocking the existence of curling in AZ, I was amused at the phrasing "even curling" as it were some miraculous afterthought.
 

TheLegend

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Oh my..... ditto what Llama said but then your already aware of that Steve. :laugh:

Other than the fact that the city council decides how much they dip into those wallets and not the city manager.

But who wants to allow a little fact like that to get in the way????

:dunno:
 

Llama19

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^^^
Based on his 'work' on the original arena management contract...Tindall should be watched at all times...

To quote:

"The documents also show legal wrangling between City Attorney Michael Bailey and Craig Tindall, the former Glendale city attorney who became the Coyotes general counsel. Tindall ended his full-time employment with the city three months before the City Council approved the Coyotes contract July 2, 2013.

Bailey brought up Tindall's previous city employment in a March 4 letter to Tindall that foreshadowed the city's legal argument for ending the Coyotes contract.

Glendale has said a state conflict-of-interest law allows the city to terminate its agreement with the Coyotes because Tindall was involved in the Coyotes agreement as a city representative. He went to work for the Coyotes less than two months after the City Council approved the deal."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/glendale/2015/06/24/emails-show-friction-glendale-coyotes-audit/29242773/

As past history...which tends to repeat itself...city manager Tindall will wield much more influence in all aspects...related to any city council members decisions...
 
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TheLegend

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Based on his 'work' on the original arena management contract...Tindall should be watched at all times...

To quote:

"The documents also show legal wrangling between City Attorney Michael Bailey and Craig Tindall, the former Glendale city attorney who became the Coyotes general counsel. Tindall ended his full-time employment with the city three months before the City Council approved the Coyotes contract July 2, 2013.

Bailey brought up Tindall's previous city employment in a March 4 letter to Tindall that foreshadowed the city's legal argument for ending the Coyotes contract.

Glendale has said a state conflict-of-interest law allows the city to terminate its agreement with the Coyotes because Tindall was involved in the Coyotes agreement as a city representative. He went to work for the Coyotes less than two months after the City Council approved the deal."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/glendale/2015/06/24/emails-show-friction-glendale-coyotes-audit/29242773/

As past history...which tends to repeat itself...city manager Tindall will wield much more influence in all aspects...related to any city council members decisions...


Then what does it say for the council??

The answer is nothing..... you're desparately reaching for things that aren't there, Llama. Give it a rest.
 

Killion

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Then what does it say for the council??

The answer is nothing..... you're desparately reaching for things that aren't there, Llama. Give it a rest.

Oh for goodness sake TL... there is more than enough blame to go around be it the current or former Mayor, Council Members, the former City Attorney & Manager, the Communications Manager, the entire cast & crew elected & unelected... The various suitors, IA, Barroway, the NHL, Bettman & Daly. The media in all forms. Moyes, Balsillie & Rodier, Ellman, Gretzky, Barnett, Burke & Gluckstern, Colangelo...On & on & on... and weve all moved on. Dealing with the here & now, whatever the future might hold.
 

madhi19

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Oh for goodness sake TL... there is more than enough blame to go around be it the current or former Mayor, Council Members, the former City Attorney & Manager, the Communications Manager, the entire cast & crew elected & unelected... The various suitors, IA, Barroway, the NHL, Bettman & Daly. The media in all forms. Moyes, Balsillie & Rodier, Ellman, Gretzky, Barnett, Burke & Gluckstern, Colangelo...On & on & on... and weve all moved on. Dealing with the here & now, whatever the future might hold.

What is the future for the Yotes, beside once again finding a new sucker to fleece? By now the word should be out in the New York investment community that Bettman is running a ponzi scheme with the Coyotes.
 

TheLegend

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Oh for goodness sake TL... there is more than enough blame to go around be it the current or former Mayor, Council Members, the former City Attorney & Manager, the Communications Manager, the entire cast & crew elected & unelected... The various suitors, IA, Barroway, the NHL, Bettman & Daly. The media in all forms. Moyes, Balsillie & Rodier, Ellman, Gretzky, Barnett, Burke & Gluckstern, Colangelo...On & on & on... and weve all moved on. Dealing with the here & now, whatever the future might hold.


It's quite apparent that certain people have not moved on because it keeps getting dragged back out and promoted when there's nothing of any pertinence in the present going on. Hence the umpteenth stroll down memory lane that currently occupies the discussion.
 

SavageSteve

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Heck I just asked because his history interests me a lot considering Tindall's now the City Manager for the city I live in. Kinda blows my mind he ended up in Tennessee...
 
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Killion

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What is the future for the Yotes, beside once again finding a new sucker to fleece? By now the word should be out in the New York investment community that Bettman is running a ponzi scheme with the Coyotes.

NY investment community, at least those involved & experienced in dealing with sports & entertainment properties & the various leagues generally quick-study artists who would have this situation pretty much scoped out. Not exactly Rocket Science. Obvious is obvious given the state of play in Glendale, what is known of Barroway's personal wealth, who he borrowed from to buy out his former partners in IA along with some details on that transaction etc.... Highly leveraged but safe as houses. The NHL wont let him go down. No biggie.
 

cbcwpg

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On today's (June 6) podcast (hosted by Luke Lapinski, Craig Morgan, and Jaime Eisner), they talked about the possible three arena location options and it was mentioned that fans should check back in 'two weeks'...

Source (starting at approximately the time mark 27:05): omny.fm/shows/the-natural-hat-trick/the-natural-hat-trick-caps-year-6-6-18

I know we all make fun of the whole "two weeks" thing, but just curious... in all the times since say 2009 that the "two weeks" was used in regards to the Coyotes org. ... has something ever actually happen in the two weeks that were said? Anything? Ever?

4AYZ.gif
 
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Mightygoose

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On today's (June 6) podcast (hosted by Luke Lapinski, Craig Morgan, and Jaime Eisner), they talked about the possible three arena location options and it was mentioned that fans should check back in 'two weeks'...

Source (starting at approximately the time mark 27:05): omny.fm/shows/the-natural-hat-trick/the-natural-hat-trick-caps-year-6-6-18

Well two weeks brings us to the BoG meetings so yes a good time to 'check back'.

Interesting they refer to that ownership needs to be figured out first and who these possible new investors are. I concur, having those with allot more $$$ than Barroway is somewhat vital.....tune in a fortnight...
 
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