Phoenix CXXXII: The Upside Down Franchise

[TheLegend]

(and speaking of people that have been wrong for going on nine years...)

...except now Bettman and Silber have been rumoured to be talking with the Suns, and after 2016 (if that 2016 attempt could even be counted as "his(AB)" attempt)...

I’m skeptical about that, DOM.

Lots and lots of moving parts in that and Sarver being the odd cog in the machine.

 

[awfulwaffle]

How will they get a new location absent a new arena? They want to move downtown with the Suns?

You're not making sense. Where did I say they didn't want a new arena? Llama's OP implied renovation of where they are currently at, not renovating an existing arena in a different location.

 

[aqib]

Just curious, how much more would it cost to renovate TSRA to make it good for hockey than it would just to do what the Suns want?

 

[GuelphStormer]

sorry, im just trying to catch up on this ... was buyer-location a topic in the suns arena discussion? and are they the same buyer pool as coyotes?

im also still interested in the ASU option. sure, it all kinda fell apparent, but the idea of being closer to STHs and a big college is still really attractive.

im just not sure if the claim that coyotes would sell that much better in the east is actually true or not.

 

[WildGopher]

Just curious, how much more would it cost to renovate TSRA to make it good for hockey than it would just to do what the Suns want?

This isn't precise, because of some differences in the arenas, but comparing arenas with fairly similar building designs, the recent renovation of the Timberwolves' Target Center cost $145 million. The figure we heard here for the proposed reno of Talking Stick was north of $400 million - actually about $450, IIRC.

 

[JimAnchower]

This isn't precise, because of some differences in the arenas, but comparing arenas with fairly similar building designs, the recent renovation of the Timberwolves' Target Center cost $145 million. The figure we heard here for the proposed reno of Talking Stick was north of $400 million - actually about $450, IIRC.

Nobody really knows if the $450M quote includes hockey or not, including the Phoenix Council members. Barrett, the group brought in to do the various studies, received another $75K to do further analysis. They were supposed to find out what costs were to build or renovate just for basketball and build or renovate for basketball and hockey. Doing both basketball and hockey would cost more.

The "to-do" list was supposed to include what it would cost to renovate or build a new arena for basketball and then also what it would cost to renovate or build new for basketball and hockey, presumably for the Coyotes who have expressed interest in leaving Glendale.

GOLDSTEIN: Has the consultant ruled out anything? Like hockey?
ESTES: That’s what Councilman Jim Waring wanted to know. Listen to this exchange between Waring and City Manager Ed Zuercher.
Waring says, “Are we doing the hockey or not? Because that was much discussed, haven’t heard much about it recently.”

Zuercher says, “Mayor, Councilman Waring, the whole question of hockey is actually part of negotiations with the Suns, so I don’t want to get into that at this point.”

Phoenix City Council Members Demand Talking Stick Arena Details

 

[PCSPounder]

I'm looking at Seattle where you have prospective building renovators offering to pay for a gut-and-internal rebuild on their dime. Of course, while it's not the only arena in that market, it's the only sufficient one "centrally" located in Seattle that would handle major concerts.

I'm looking at Robert Sarver having Suns fans on their last nerves after this last offseason and start of this season.

It's one thing to ask why Phoenix would even find it politically palatable to deal with Sarver. Why shouldn't they ask for what Seattle's probably getting?

I don't see a bargaining chip held by Coyotes ownership here.

The only bargaining chip Coyotes FANS have is that we're not sure there are any takers to the NHL's liking... nothing that ticks all the boxes, yet.

 

[Fairview]

MNN....

I'm not feeling any sort of persecution at all. What I was addressing was the continued twisting of context in regards to things we've already chewed on to death. I'm with you as far as even worrying about all that crap but nevertheless some continuously seem to feel the need to bring it up.

It's late and I really wasn't in the mood to haggle over numbers but..... you're probably in the ballpark. I would say though that an east valley arena location would probably get a bump in STH sales. I see a lot of people on social media who dropped their FT STH status because getting out to the arena for 41 nights got to be too much of a chore. Many claim they would jump back in if the Coyotes moved over there, but of course saying it is one thing.... doing it is another.

There might also be a decrease in the number of west valley STH who after having their support of the team called into question might decide that they have seen enough. It is baffling to me to see an organization turning their back on the region that currently has the only suitable venue for the team. In a market where the support is luke warm at best, to come out and suggest that being on the west side of Phoenix is a big reason why the team isn't a financial success, is just stupid. Meanwhile, over on F40, those living in the east valley saying everything possible to denounce west valley as low income passionless individuals who fail to properly support the team. It is reminicent of the put downs encountered from one fan base towards another during any talk of relocation. That is what this is...relocation. If I were a west valley resident I would feel under attack.
I am reminded of an exchange between Tony and his audience that happened a few years back. When asked where the team would be playing in the future, Tony answered "Arizona"...,clever, that was absolutely the best answer he could give,yet, now based on statements from AB and GB made last spring, the answer is anywhere in Arizona that is not Glendale or more generally the west valley. Harsh.
If the team were to leave GRA for a central downtown arena, then maybe there is a way to spin the relocation as a positive move, but if it moves to the east..in a mirror image of where it is now located, leaving a perfectly good tax payer financed building, to yet another tax payer funded arena then the situation is poison.
The team should be doing everything possible to aggressively recruit fans from the west, if the money is not there, in the region for ST, then mini pacs, youth and family pricing and develop the immediate market where you are located, rather than shunning it.
Having said all that, I continue to believe that it is about the subsidy more than location.

 

[Stumbledore]

I am not pushing anything...TL did in his original post from the previous thread...

And...you had originally liked his post...

Love what you're doing with your avatar...

 

[Llama19]

Love what you're doing with your avatar...

Then...you might like this...
Stranger Things Lightbulb Message Encoder

 

[mesamonster]

To those who envision many more years in the Valley for the Coyotes I ask the question, does your optimism include Anthony Barroway as the principal owner? If your answer is yes, for how long? Or, if not, how much would a new owner have to pay to keep the team playing at GRA?

 

[Killion]

To those who envision many more years in the Valley for the Coyotes I ask the question, does your optimism include Anthony Barroway as the principal owner? If your answer is yes, for how long? Or, if not, how much would a new owner have to pay to keep the team playing at GRA?

.... theres one born every minute mesa as you know.... so no, I would not bet against someone materializing from the ether, buying out entirely or buying into the franchise where is as is.... and yes I know, why havent they yet appeared, plenty of opportunity over the past 8yrs to do so..... but I dont believe its beyond the realm of possibilities. Weve seen some strange things over the years with this League, ownerships. The Panthers, Bolts, Stars... most recently the Canes. Foley paying $500M... for a team in Las Vegas....

No question the Coyotes are on life support, have been for a decade... longer in fact just not quite so critical. Sumthins' gotta give, break. Pendulum when it comes to situations like this can swing wildly so to commit yourself to writing their epitaph would be a mistake.... and I see your still not finished consuming your big ol' bowl of prognostications that Barroway would be bust by this Christmas just past. Ha?... You want some Jim Beam... JD to wash that down with Son?

 

[mesamonster]

.... theres one born every minute mesa as you know.... so no, I would not bet against someone materializing from the ether, buying out entirely or buying into the franchise where is as is.... and yes I know, why havent they yet appeared, plenty of opportunity over the past 8yrs to do so..... but I dont believe its beyond the realm of possibilities. Weve seen some strange things over the years with this League, ownerships. The Panthers, Bolts, Stars... most recently the Canes. Foley paying $500M... for a team in Las Vegas....

No question the Coyotes are on life support, have been for a decade... longer in fact just not quite so critical. Sumthins' gotta give, break. Pendulum when it comes to situations like this can swing wildly so to commit yourself to writing their epitaph would be a mistake.... and I see your still not finished consuming your big ol' bowl of prognostications that Barroway would be bust by this Christmas just past. Ha?... You want some Jim Beam... JD to wash that down with Son?

I missed my December date, but only because I believe GB stepped in to give a little help via the league LOC. I may be wrong , but those funds will have to be paid back to the league at some point? As the days go by AB`s financial basis continues to rise, at what point does his borrowing overwhelm the hoped for sales price? Of course, any sale below his debt level will never be revealed by the league, I for one do not believe that the logical buyer Fertitta will pay the leagues asking price. Lets be real, Fertitta does not need the Coyotes, particularly if he is asked to pay a kings ransom for an organization that will require a complete rebuild! The capital cost of $500MM will be difficult to cover given the present state of NHL revenues attributable to media, naming rights and other ancillary revenue sources.

 

[Llama19]

"“I get up in the morning thinking about a new stadium,” said Barroway, who lives in the Valley full-time. “I go to sleep thinking about a new stadium. Once we get that, we’re going to be one of the premier places to play in the league.”"

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nhl/coyotes/2017/07/14/andrew-barroway-reaffirms-commitment-keeping-coyotes-arizona/478144001/

 

[mesamonster]

It is interesting to read Randy Andy`s comments from last summer! "they had the best off season of any NHL team". I wonder if he would like to take those words back now? One thing we know about AB is to never believe a word he says. The same guy who did`t have the balls to tell a Coyote legend and all around good guy he was not going to be coming back!

 

[Llama19]

To quote from Glendale Councilwoman Joyce Clark's personal blog:

"You’d think that Andrew Barroway, owner of the team, would take a reality pill and acknowledge that no one is going to build them a new arena and then subsidize the team to play in it. The fans deserve better. They deserve surety and the team stubbornly refuses to provide it."

Source: joyceclarkunfiltered.com/coyotes-barroway-will-he-or-wont-he/http://joyceclarkunfiltered.com/coyotes-barroway-will-he-or-wont-he/

 

[Dirty Old Man]

I’m skeptical about that, DOM. Lots and lots of moving parts in that and Sarver being the odd cog in the machine.

Well, sure, we all are. But at the same time it makes as much sense as a new owner of the Houston Rockets saying "yeah, sure, I'd love an NHL team!" automatically meaning the imminent relocation of the Coyotes. I mean, get out your Jump to Conclusions Mats, people.

 

[mesamonster]

To quote from Glendale Councilwoman Joyce Clark's personal blog:

"You’d think that Andrew Barroway, owner of the team, would take a reality pill and acknowledge that no one is going to build them a new arena and then subsidize the team to play in it. The fans deserve better. They deserve surety and the team stubbornly refuses to provide it."

Source: joyceclarkunfiltered.com/coyotes-barroway-will-he-or-wont-he/http://joyceclarkunfiltered.com/coyotes-barroway-will-he-or-wont-he/

Pretty much sums up the situation they have in front of them and AB`s refusal to take responsibility and attempt to settle things down. All we have heard from him and his management team are excuse after excuse for their foibles. The fact that the fan experience (according to Joyce) has not changed in 15 years is another example of a tone deaf owner whose only desire is to somehow get out with two dimes in his pockets. GB will be the one who determines that, and I don`t believe he really gives a damn about AB.

 

[Killion]

Hear ye' hear ye'... kindly REFRAIN - CEASE & DESIST from posting tweets from the twitterverse from unaccredited non-media, team & or league personnel & politico's.... I do not want to read "opinion" from the general citizenry unless members of hf & posting here, F40 or NHL General.

 

[cbcwpg]

"“I get up in the morning thinking about a new stadium,” said Barroway, who lives in the Valley full-time. “I go to sleep thinking about a new stadium. Once we get that, we’re going to be one of the premier places to play in the league.”"

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nhl/coyotes/2017/07/14/andrew-barroway-reaffirms-commitment-keeping-coyotes-arizona/478144001/

Not to nit-pick, but I will just because...... it's called an ARENA... not a stadium. Hockey is played in arenas, except for those silly times when Bettmen needs to milk things a little and plays a game outdoors in a stadium.

 

[TheLegend]

I think reality is beginning to set in with Joyce Clark that the Coyotes will not be playing out of GRA much longer. Whether it be across town or in another state.

She advocated HEAVILY in her blog years ago for the Jamison deal and went out of her way to explain how much better it was than what the city finalized with IA. But the reality there was the Jamison deal would have cost the city virtually the same over it's lifepsan. AND Jamison was also known to have scouted for properties in the east valley to move the team to.

Pretty much sums up the situation they have in front of them and AB`s refusal to take responsibility and attempt to settle things down. All we have heard from him and his management team are excuse after excuse for their foibles. The fact that the fan experience (according to Joyce) has not changed in 15 years is another example of a tone deaf owner whose only desire is to somehow get out with two dimes in his pockets. GB will be the one who determines that, and I don`t believe he really gives a damn about AB.

Now how would Joyce Clark know what the fan experience would be like if she rarely attends games??? She's got access to the city owned suite whenever she wants it.

Excuse after excuse?? Well if you consider silence as an excuse then you might be right.

 

[MNNumbers]

I think reality is beginning to set in with Joyce Clark that the Coyotes will not be playing out of GRA much longer. Whether it be across town or in another state.

She advocated HEAVILY in her blog years ago for the Jamison deal and went out of her way to explain how much better it was than what the city finalized with IA. But the reality there was the Jamison deal would have cost the city virtually the same over it's lifepsan. AND Jamison was also known to have scouted for properties in the east valley to move the team to.




Now how would Joyce Clark know what the fan experience would be like if she rarely attends games??? She's got access to the city owned suite whenever she wants it.

Excuse after excuse?? Well if you consider silence as an excuse then you might be right.

I forget, Legend...

What was the Jamison deal? I don't remember ever really going through it in great detail myself, because it seemed like he never got that far.

Please remind me, for the sake of posterity


ETA: And, I take it from your post that you think that Coyotes days at GRA are numbered as well...
What do you think is the deadline for a new arena deal before a relocation is put into effect?

 

[TheLegend]

It is interesting to read Randy Andy`s comments from last summer! "they had the best off season of any NHL team". I wonder if he would like to take those words back now? One thing we know about AB is to never believe a word he says. The same guy who did`t have the balls to tell a Coyote legend and all around good guy he was not going to be coming back!

Newsflash.... most of the hockey media agreed with him.

BTW..... he's had several conversations with Shane Doan since they parted ways.

 

[TheLegend]

I forget, Legend...

What was the Jamison deal? I don't remember ever really going through it in great detail myself, because it seemed like he never got that far.

Please remind me, for the sake of posterity.

This is off the top of my head, so I may be off on the numbers a little.

Jamison deal was for 15 years with an annual AMF that ran anywhere from $12M to $19M. It varied from year to year. Originally the AMF went as high as $21M for one season but that was negotiated down. Overall costs over the life of the contract was somewhere in the $220M range. Slightly less than IA's deal.

There were differences on some of the side provisions.... (ie rent increase to the city midway into the 15years, guaranteed number of non-hockey events (reduced AMF if not met), revenue sharing, etc ).... and it included a clause allowing Jamison to purchase the arena from the city during the final years at a fixed number. So whether or not Glendale would have seen a better return is hard to say. The Jamison agreement did have performance incentives in it.

City had actually approved the final deal tentatively (the council vote would have been a formality), but the NHL pulled the rug out from under it because they didn't like the makeup of Jamison's group (IIRC lack of a major shareholder).

EDIT.... trying to find her old blog entry on the Jamison deal but it might be gone.

 

[Killion]

....AND Jamison was also known to have scouted for properties in the east valley to move the team to.

Yes I did find that revelation long after the fact to be both shocking & beyond sleazy given what he was demanding of the COG..... As for Joyces' latest, she really cant have it both ways. Ends her column demanding AB "make a major effort to turn things around" having just spent a couple of hundred words in explaining to those who might not know that the Coyotes rank last in attendance, last in the league, lowest payroll, lowest team valuation etc etc etc....

No acknowledgement of the fact that Barroways leveraged seven ways from Sunday... cant afford to be dropping big (or even little) money on marketing, advertising & promotion let alone payroll... that the COG (or at least Joyce) is ecstatic with AEG's performance thus far so their going nowhere, nor will the COG ever enter into a subsidy again yet "were willing to help"?... Well. HOW White Woman? Barroway, the franchise doesnt need your words of support, it desperately needs cash. Joyce slamming the door on that possibility while demanding Barroway spend, find $$$ he doesnt have to make a go of it....

Completely irrational. Dysfunctional. He cant make a go of it at GRA. The COG is not going to fire AEG, reenter into some crazy subsidization deal with the franchise EVEN IF both parties could kiss & makeup, which they cant/wont.... Her article & argument entirely circular. Irrational. He, Andrew Barroway simply doesnt have the coin to do as she suggests & so to try & "guilt him out" in demanding the impossible is not only completely futile, its intellectually dishonest. How is this "helpful"? Not only is it not helpful but in publicly shaming Barroway & the NHL she's simply providing fodder which they will fire back & spur, potentially hasten their departure altogether.... and when that happens, I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts AEG wont be far behind (so there you go Joyce, from ecstasy to agony, Wide World of Sports, AEG gone as well, roll out the RFP's Baby)... which all combined according to some would be great. No team, a 3rd, 4th or 5th tier Arena Manager to try & fill the joint.... good luck with that.... Higley High.... Valley Lutheran Graduation Ceremonies... Pro Bass Casters Championships....