Phoenix CXXII: Drawing a LeBlank

[Killion]

Lenin really had a way with words.

... why yes madhi, yes he did. my favorite and as it applies to this situation (& others elsewhere)?... "All eyewitnesses are liars".

 

[cutchemist42]

If your a city, do even believe in the NHL fighting to keep a team in your city? Would you build them an arena after even a half-baked look into this saga? I dont see getting a small city council to cough up $25mil as something that makes me confident in building for them.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Put 'em in the Madhouse, like I been say'n all along. Drop the prima donna requirements for an "NHL arena" and let the boys play in the old barn!

Exactly, who cares about an "NHL arena" if they don't draw.

From where do you glean this knowledge, that I as a resident of this valley can't confirm, in any way that applies to the type of resident that could actually afford tix in the first place?

city-data.com. The coyotes leaving is bad because it's just a microcosm of the phoenix area staying still while denver and co move forward.

Some people differ to those who actually live some place. Others don't

Why do you keep saying this and why does this matter? I can make an observation even if I don't live there.

 

[Killion]

Exactly, who cares about an "NHL arena" if they don't draw.

city-data.com. The coyotes leaving is bad because it's just a microcosm of the phoenix area staying still while denver and co move forward.

... Ive said all along the Jets when they arrived in 96 shouldve landed & played out of the older War Vets (where the old Roadrunners played etc, brought back some "olde tyme hockey", built up their fanbase) however the only reason they landed in Phoenix at all was because the market had a brand spanking new building (NHL pretensions, must be brand new state of the art or we cant play there, even if its an unmitigated disaster like Phoenix was & Brooklyn is turning out to be being Basketball Specific as they are) open, Colangelo deep in debt & more than welcoming of a paying tenant, good friend of Gary Bettmans, former NBA associates. However, he really stuck it to Burke & Gluckstern on the Lease, no way no how was it tenable & the building itself, BB specific. More recently, Colangelo has "claimed" that had he known the NHL was a possibility, he'd have dropped the extra tens of millions to make the now called Talking Stick Arena "hockey friendly". Some serious historical revisionism on his part with that one. You want multi-purpose arena? Hockey & BB? Start digging. Thats why Barclays didnt go for it and why Colangelo didnt either, told "not sure" about NHL when asking so why drop another $50-$75M +... So it wasnt that Phoenix was a super attractive market, it was simply convenient, one guy & one league in Bettman & the NHL doing a solid for another in the NBA & Colangelo. The game of hockey, the NHL brand, meh, so what? None of them couldve cared less with the exception of Gluckstern and he simply wasnt wealthy enough on his own to handle things & execute things the way they shouldve been. It was an emergency situation. Burke & Gluckstern turfed from Minnesota, their original destination.... Interesting you bring up Colorado as a comparison, for as most might be aware, the Avalanche plumbing new depths in futility this season on top of several, nearly a decade now & as a result and yes, attendance suffering. Right near the bottom along with Florida & Arizona. However, when the Avalanche were competitive & even riding high as they were, mid-packer to top 15 in terms of attendance. Not so much that it has a lot to do with the economy as it does performance, so I do take some issue with your theory on that one MM.

 

[Llama19]

...This summer, however, there is:

One year lease signed in January (and if we are right, that will have to be signed in January every year, so you can't leave without a lame duck situation). And, signed in secret, where not many know this is in effect.

From my understanding, the lease renewal is an automatic one, triggered on December 31.

Either party, in this case it is now between IceArizona and AEG, can either extend or cancel...

From the information that I received, it was IceArizona that 'extended' and AEG elected not to 'cancel'...

New arena options drying up.

Exactly...quicker than a shower in the Arizona desert...

Good chance to go, if there is a place to go.

The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.

They can easy blame Glendale, ASU and Arizona on the way out.

Agreed...and as with LeBlanc's past bloviations....very, very likely, too...

 

[MNNumbers]

From my understanding, the lease renewal is an automatic one, triggered on December 31.

Either party, in this case it is now between IceArizona and AEG, can either extend or cancel...

From the information that I received, it was IceArizona that 'extended' and AEG elected not to 'cancel'...

...

Do you know about the terms as a result of an FOIA request?

From what you write, it's exactly as I expected. IA had to extend, in case the Tempe proposal was approved. COG is fine with terms, and wouldn't cancel.

However, the date of such being Dec 31 really doesn't tell us anything, because IA would always choose to extend, since the date is mid-season.

Correct?

 

[Mightygoose]

Do you know about the terms as a result of an FOIA request?

From what you write, it's exactly as I expected. IA had to extend, in case the Tempe proposal was approved. COG is fine with terms, and wouldn't cancel.

However, the date of such being Dec 31 really doesn't tell us anything, because IA would always choose to extend, since the date is mid-season.

Correct?

That's a good thought.

And if they were still counting on the legislature (nevermind with ASU pulling out)when they felt it would be in their best intersest to extend.

If this lease extension is firm and I still doubt that, the fact that there hasn't been a public mention of it speaks loud for silence. If they choose not to extend, that wouldn't make news either and can mask a lame duck remainder of the season better.

 

[TheLegend]

^^ They may try to blame ASU, but that would be fruitless. Because it's already been presented here locally that ASU had a legitimate reason for backing out.

 

[Killion]

^^ They may try to blame ASU, but that would be fruitless. Because it's already been presented here locally that ASU had a legitimate reason for backing out.

Right, but TL ( theres always a "but" huh? ) the way theyve reacted, comments since Friday about how "this wouldve been good for ASU, Tempe & the taxpayers, the fans, the players & the organization, for the
future of hockey in Arizona" (words to that effect) havent they already assigned blame? Started the stone rolling? Just a matter of time before they get to picking up even more stones & throwing them dontchathink?

 

[Melrose Munch]

... Ive said all along the Jets when they arrived in 96 shouldve landed & played out of the older War Vets (where the old Roadrunners played etc, brought back some "olde tyme hockey", built up their fanbase) however the only reason they landed in Phoenix at all was because the market had a brand spanking new building (NHL pretensions, must be brand new state of the art or we cant play there, even if its an unmitigated disaster like Phoenix was & Brooklyn is turning out to be being Basketball Specific as they are) open, Colangelo deep in debt & more than welcoming of a paying tenant, good friend of Gary Bettmans, former NBA associates. However, he really stuck it to Burke & Gluckstern on the Lease, no way no how was it tenable & the building itself, BB specific. More recently, Colangelo has "claimed" that had he known the NHL was a possibility, he'd have dropped the extra tens of millions to make the now called Talking Stick Arena "hockey friendly". Some serious historical revisionism on his part with that one. You want multi-purpose arena? Hockey & BB? Start digging. Thats why Barclays didnt go for it and why Colangelo didnt either, told "not sure" about NHL when asking so why drop another $50-$75M +... So it wasnt that Phoenix was a super attractive market, it was simply convenient, one guy & one league in Bettman & the NHL doing a solid for another in the NBA & Colangelo. The game of hockey, the NHL brand, meh, so what? None of them couldve cared less with the exception of Gluckstern and he simply wasnt wealthy enough on his own to handle things & execute things the way they shouldve been. It was an emergency situation. Burke & Gluckstern turfed from Minnesota, their original destination.... Interesting you bring up Colorado as a comparison, for as most might be aware, the Avalanche plumbing new depths in futility this season on top of several, nearly a decade now & as a result and yes, attendance suffering. Right near the bottom along with Florida & Arizona. However, when the Avalanche were competitive & even riding high as they were, mid-packer to top 15 in terms of attendance. Not so much that it has a lot to do with the economy as it does performance, so I do take some issue with your theory on that one MM.

More of a general statement on Phoenix as an area then the team it's itself. It's disjointed with no direction, and I was comparing that to the coyotes also having no direction, showing how the teams problems mirror the problems of the Phoenix area. I do agree with your comment however. They should have never left Phoenix proper.

^^ They may try to blame ASU, but that would be fruitless. Because it's already been presented here locally that ASU had a legitimate reason for backing out.

Right, but TL ( theres always a "but" huh? ) the way theyve reacted, comments since Friday about how "this wouldve been good for ASU, Tempe & the taxpayers, the fans, the players & the organization, for the
future of hockey in Arizona" (words to that effect) havent they already assigned blame? Started the stone rolling? Just a matter of time before they get to picking up even more stones & throwing them dontchathink?

Blaming ASU would be an absolutely ridiculous move, but that is what the NHL does.

 

[Glacial]

I finally caught up with this thread after a 48-hour break and now there is another twist in the whole saga Who could have imagined that?

We're ready to get any team via relocation in Quebec City and it seems the number of candidates grows every day!

Tick, tock, the clock is ticking.

Are you sure? You might find the Coyotes playing in Montmagny, still run by the Ice Clowns, demanding QC subsidize them to the tune of millions as well as demanding a shrubbery.

 

[PCSPounder]

If we talk about 30 years being the corporately accepted lifespan of a modern arena...

...and 10-12 years probably being too short to turn it over because it sends the message to other cities that your investment could very easily go to crap...

...is 15 years about right? Is that where the NHL cuts bait in this particular case?

BTW... I cannot imagine a more fertile scenario where Paul Allen can step in. However, no noise, and I suspect he won't bite. He never really wanted to threaten the value of the Blazers. ON THAT NOTE... when you consider athletics as a business and college athletic departments as competing in the business, it was ALWAYS a bit concerning and a strong longshot to throw in your chips with ASU. I know I considered the possibility of the quid pro quo here, and the timing is a bit of a shock, but not a surprise.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

If relo is this summer, its gotta be quebec IMO

 

[Llama19]

Are you sure? You might find the Coyotes playing in Montmagny, still run by the Ice Clowns, demanding QC subsidize them to the tune of millions as well as demanding a shrubbery.

If the outcome that this franchise moves, I do not see IceArizona involved at the NHL level anymore...now at the AHL level, probably...

If we talk about 30 years being the corporately accepted lifespan of a modern arena...

...and 10-12 years probably being too short to turn it over because it sends the message to other cities that your investment could very easily go to crap...

...is 15 years about right? Is that where the NHL cuts bait in this particular case?

BTW... I cannot imagine a more fertile scenario where Paul Allen can step in. However, no noise, and I suspect he won't bite. He never really wanted to threaten the value of the Blazers. ON THAT NOTE... when you consider athletics as a business and college athletic departments as competing in the business, it was ALWAYS a bit concerning and a strong longshot to throw in your chips with ASU. I know I considered the possibility of the quid pro quo here, and the timing is a bit of a shock, but not a surprise.

The current GRA arena will be 14-years-old in December of this year...it is far from a 'cut bait' scenario...

Back on the previous thread...it was my understanding that there were some 'visits' by 'representatives' of the IceArizona organization to both the Portland and Seattle areas...so, you may be right that Mr Allen could be in play...

As far as ASU is concerned, it appears that they 'folded' versus putting anymore 'chips' (if they had any in to begin with) on the table...

 

[WildGopher]

... Ive said all along the Jets when they arrived in 96 shouldve landed & played out of the older War Vets (where the old Roadrunners played etc, brought back some "olde tyme hockey", built up their fanbase) however the only reason they landed in Phoenix at all was because the market had a brand spanking new building (NHL pretensions, must be brand new state of the art or we cant play there, even if its an unmitigated disaster like Phoenix was & Brooklyn is turning out to be being Basketball Specific as they are) open, Colangelo deep in debt & more than welcoming of a paying tenant, good friend of Gary Bettmans, former NBA associates. However, he really stuck it to Burke & Gluckstern on the Lease, no way no how was it tenable & the building itself, BB specific. More recently, Colangelo has "claimed" that had he known the NHL was a possibility, he'd have dropped the extra tens of millions to make the now called Talking Stick Arena "hockey friendly". Some serious historical revisionism on his part with that one. You want multi-purpose arena? Hockey & BB? Start digging. Thats why Barclays didnt go for it and why Colangelo didnt either, told "not sure" about NHL when asking so why drop another $50-$75M +... So it wasnt that Phoenix was a super attractive market, it was simply convenient, one guy & one league in Bettman & the NHL doing a solid for another in the NBA & Colangelo. The game of hockey, the NHL brand, meh, so what? None of them couldve cared less . . .

There's a lot of wisdom in here, including in the back-stories. You could write a book (you should write a book).

First, that attitude, "The game of hockey, the NHL brand, meh, so what?" identifies a huge part of this problem. Bettman was an NBA guy, brought to run the NHL to bring some of the NBA's marketing success and footprint in the U.S. sports market to the NHL. Some good came from it, but some of it was pounding a square peg into a round hole; the league thought (or wanted to believe) that general sports fans anywhere could be easily converted into hockey fans. Maybe over time that could happen, but that was always going to take more time and work. Hockey fans are noted for their unique depth of loyalty to their sport, and forcing some of these changes on their game didn't go over well. You can still see echoes of that even today in the comments and debates on these boards.

The "which arena" when they came to Phoenix question is an important one, too. I've read your view that Vets Memorial would have been a better place to start, and that might be the case. A couple pros and cons: Veteran's Memorial Coliseum is virtually the same building as the St. Paul Civic Center, round buildings where the top seats rise and fall around the inside of a giant circle (which makes it very hard to add suites). I've watched hockey in both buildings and it's a very comfortable place to watch, with good sightlines. Both hosted WHA teams. But when St. Paul wanted to bring a NHL team around the same time the Yotes moved to Phoenix, the league rejected the use of the Civic Center, requiring St. Paul to tear it down and build the Xcel Energy Center for the Wild. Unlike on the Hartford board here, where architects have credibly blueprinted how they can add mid-level suites, club seating, and expanded concourses to hold all the amenities that make an arena profitable for a team, the design of the round building precluded the installation of many suites, to the point that in St. Paul they actually considered lowering the ice to put suites at ice level! The NHL said no, so presumably they would have said the same to Vets Memorial.

But that doesn't mean they would have been right. In their desire for only fully modern buildings with all the amenities, they might have badly tied the hands of the Yotes. Maybe operating in their own building, as you've suggested, they could have created their own identity, kept all of the advertising and limited suite revenue, and established themselves as a power in the local sports market enough to get Scottsdale or another city to work with them on a modern building in a few years. It's plausible, and certainly the alternative hasn't worked out. Again a case of maybe the NHL seeing too many stars in their eyes, too sure (arrogant) of success, too believing in their own marketing. Regardless, they blew up a market, and maybe that didn't have to happen.

 

[varano]

Man this is one of the worst sagas in sports history. The longest death of an NHL franchise.

Can't wait for this to finally end

 

[Killion]

There's a lot of wisdom in here, including in the back-stories. You could write a book (you should write a book).

Yes, it was poisoned from the outset. Steven Gluckstern sold his 50% share in the Coyotes to Richard Burke just 2yrs after landing at the then called AWA in Phoenix, which supposedly sat 16,000 for hockey but of which 4000 seats were so badly obstructed they had to be sold at deep discounts or simply given away. The Coyotes receiving exactly zero from parking, concessions, sponsorships.... Now, if your the Commissioner of the NHL WG, do you not at minimum at least look at if even an abbreviated Coles Notes version of the Lease agreement between one of your clubs and whomever to make sure the leagues interests are protected and you wont be having to deal with problems down the road or what?... Of course you would. Only common sense. You owe it to the other clubs, footprint, one of your core fiduciary responsibilities in performing the job.... So, how was it that such an egregiously one-sided agreement could be allowed to be consummated that clearly spelled doom for a fledgling team?... Gluckstern bailed, and with partners bought the Islanders (in the wake of the Spanos debacle) and as an Easterner, claimed at the time "a fulfilment of a lifetime dream", and then sold the Islanders about 15 minutes after that. Real solid guy huh? Talk about superficial, fickle.... Meanwhile in Arizona, Richard Burke forced into selling a couple of years later to mall strip developer & ad-man Steve Ellman... no further explanations required. We all Know what Salesman Steve's play was all about.... And yes, the War Vets the 2nd "Saddledome" model built in North America, replicated thereafter some 20yrs later in Calgary and so yes, it could have been remodeled & sufficed and yes, hosted the Coyotes while they sunk roots in the community & then built anew in Scottsdale or wherever.... so yes, entire situation was entirely avoidable.

 

[WildGopher]

The Coyotes receiving exactly zero from parking, concessions, sponsorships.... Now, if your the Commissioner of the NHL WG, do you not at minimum at least look at if even an abbreviated Coles Notes version of the Lease agreement between one of your clubs and whomever to make sure the leagues interests are protected and you wont be having to deal with problems down the road or what?... Of course you would. Only common sense. You owe it to the other clubs, footprint, one of your core fiduciary responsibilities in performing the job.... So, how was it that such an egregiously one-sided agreement could be allowed to be consummated that clearly spelled doom for a fledgling team?...

If the league was basing their decisions on logic, there would have been a lot more due diligence and planning. But they were operating on a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants ad hoc basis because (and I'll get in trouble with some people here for saying this), one of Gary's top goals at the time was to pull teams south to create that bigger footprint. Not that it couldn't have worked in a southern market, but you have to do it with marketing, adequate capitalization, and building faith with your customer base, not with wishful thinking and then scrambling for ever more bizarre subsidies when things don't work out. Business schools will look at this failure as a case study of what not to do for decades to come. Problem is that a lot of good hockey fans, like the Arizonans we see here, are the ones who get burned.

 

[SunDancer]

Well, something like this is where I was going....

They had chances, but the key point is:
The NHL doesn't really want to relocate. They have a slight bias to stay in a market, for the sake of convincing municipalities to build them arenas, because then they can blackmail them for more money later, too. If teams actually have to build themselves, then they don't have as much power in negotiations later. So, the league actually WANTS to stay, to a certain extent.

Now, with the Valley:
They could have allowed Balsillie to purchase, but he was blacklisted before, and that was a power struggle, one which the league would go to any length to win.

After that, twice they could have moved, but Glendale gave them 25M to stay. Since they prefer to stay (and this is EXACTLY the reason why), they stayed.

When they decided to sell the franchise, they could have moved it, but Glendale offered them 15M/yr (and, again, this is EXACTLY the reason why), so they stayed. Plus, at this point, there was no good place to move them, since Allen in Portland wasn't interested. Seattle? no arena. Quebec? no arena yet. KC? no sweetheart deals. etc

The only good chance they had to relocate was immediately after Glendale voided the lease. And, they let that go, true, but they had a court date first. In that case, I think you could say they let the opportunity pass because they wanted to test Glendale's resolve in court. Which makes sense from the above: Stay for the sake of financial leverage.

Since that time, there hasn't been a 'good chance' to move.

This summer, however, there is:

One year lease signed in January (and if we are right, that will have to be signed in January every year, so you can't leave without a lame duck situation). And, signed in secret, where not many know this is in effect.
New arena options drying up.

Good chance to go, if there is a place to go. They can easy blame Glendale, ASU and Arizona on the way out.

The two $25M handouts from Glendale are often cited as the reason the Coyotes didn't relocate under NHL ownership and while clearly that money was key, it was more of an excuse to stay rather than a reason. People seem to forget that in 2012, the final year of NHL ownership, there was no subsidy at all from Glendale. That season was on the NHL's dime. At that point the league had a couple of failed bids, a lockout, a new unfriendly mayor and no bonafide owners in sight. Conditions for bailing could hardly have been better ... but they still stuck it out.

Glendale also gave the Coyotes an easy exit in 2015 when they killed the lease but that didn't change their resolve to find a solution either. By comparison, the ASU setback is not nearly as dire as those two situations in the past. In fact, if the Coyotes relocated after this season, the optics would arguably look worse than at any other point in the last 10 years. Before the NHL could've legitimately said, "Sorry, nobody wants to own the team" or "Sorry, Glendale kicked us out," and generally the fans would've sympathized and accepted those reasons. However, if they leave now despite having owners, an arena and a lease, it could only be interpreted as, "Sorry, we're looking for better terms."

Of course, anything can still happen but the Coyotes have weathered worse storms than this.

 

[SunDancer]

^^ They may try to blame ASU, but that would be fruitless. Because it's already been presented here locally that ASU had a legitimate reason for backing out.

Just curious about the timing. If you believe Leblanc, IA and ASU have been discussing this arrangement for over a year. Why wasn't ASU concerned sooner? Withdrawing suddenly at the 11th hour gives the impression that ASU wasn't so much worried about the contents of the bill as they were surprised by the opposition to it.

 

[Fugu]

The two $25M handouts from Glendale are often cited as the reason the Coyotes didn't relocate under NHL ownership and while clearly that money was key, it was more of an excuse to stay rather than a reason. People seem to forget that in 2012, the final year of NHL ownership, there was no subsidy at all from Glendale. That season was on the NHL's dime. At that point the league had a couple of failed bids, a lockout, a new unfriendly mayor and no bonafide owners in sight. Conditions for bailing could hardly have been better ... but they still stuck it out.

Glendale also gave the Coyotes an easy exit in 2015 when they killed the lease but that didn't change their resolve to find a solution either. By comparison, the ASU setback is not nearly as dire as those two situations in the past. In fact, if the Coyotes relocated after this season, the optics would arguably look worse than at any other point in the last 10 years. Before the NHL could've legitimately said, "Sorry, nobody wants to own the team" or "Sorry, Glendale kicked us out," and generally the fans would've sympathized and accepted those reasons. However, if they leave now despite having owners, an arena and a lease, it could only be interpreted as, "Sorry, we're looking for better terms."

Of course, anything can still happen but the Coyotes have weathered worse storms than this.

I'll disagree that this isn't a concerning issue. The team had $25 MM per year from COG, and then $15 MM (minus what goes back to COG) for that entire time. LeBlanc totally screwed up with the city, lost the lease and subsidy and then blasted them for what was apparently the franchise's unwillingness to give data to the city they were owed. Now his lead arena project just blew up in his face.

I also found it interesting that he has finally said Glendale is just a bad location for the team, yet they have nothing that is available any time soon. And no subsidies.

 

[Llama19]

Just curious about the timing. If you believe Leblanc, IA and ASU have been discussing this arrangement for over a year. Why wasn't ASU concerned sooner? Withdrawing suddenly at the 11th hour gives the impression that ASU wasn't so much worried about the contents of the bill as they were surprised by the opposition to it.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

We have a winner...

Wait 'til the news conference tomorrow...

 

[Killion]

If the league was basing their decisions on logic, there would have been a lot more due diligence and planning. But they were operating on a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants ad hoc basis because (and I'll get in trouble with some people here for saying this), one of Gary's top goals at the time was to pull teams south to create that bigger footprint. Not that it couldn't have worked in a southern market, but you have to do it with marketing, adequate capitalization, and building faith with your customer base, not with wishful thinking and then scrambling for ever more bizarre subsidies when things don't work out. Business schools will look at this failure as a case study of what not to do for decades to come. Problem is that a lot of good hockey fans, like the Arizonans we see here, are the ones who get burned.

... yes, and you'd think they'd have learned that shoehorning an NHL club into a Basketball Specific facility is an absolute "no no", lousy Lease or not yet they facilitated precisely that yet again in Brooklyn. These pretensions, that just because a building is brand new with all the amenities & suites etc, that hockey fans will just over-look the fact that the score-clocks hanging over the Blue Line, that one end of the rink is blank, dead-end wall, that they need to see a Chiropractor after attending a game to straighten out there necks & backs.... its just crazy. Like a 40 or 50 something woman who dresses like a 25yr old & buys shoes 2 sizes too small because she thinks its sexy. Meanwhile cutting off circulation, hideously misshaping her internal organs & toes, disabled, crippled and no, that doesnt "look good" to begin with... or the poor woman from Russia... F sized breast implants explode at 30,000' on an Aeroflot flight between Moscow & LA.... Is it really worth it Honey?.... Thats how the NHL operated in this case. Must be totally state of the art and who cares if it squeezes the life out of the team, doesnt fit properly & could wind up killing us.

 

[Fugu]

... yes, and you'd think they'd have learned that shoehorning an NHL club into a Basketball Specific facility is an absolute "no no", lousy Lease or not yet they facilitated precisely that yet again in Brooklyn. These pretensions, that just because a building is brand new with all the amenities & suites etc, that hockey fans will just over-look the fact that the score-clocks hanging over the Blue Line, that one end of the rink is blank, dead-end wall, that they need to see a Chiropractor after attending a game to straighten out there necks & backs.... its just crazy. Like a 40 or 50 something woman who dresses like a 25yr old & buys shoes 2 sizes too small because she thinks its sexy. Meanwhile cutting off circulation, hideously misshaping her internal organs & toes, disabled, crippled and no, that doesnt "look good" to begin with... or the poor woman from Russia... F sized breast implants explode at 30,000' on an Aeroflot flight between Moscow & LA.... Is it really worth it Honey?.... Thats how the NHL operated in this case. Must be totally state of the art and who cares if it squeezes the life out of the team, doesnt fit properly & could wind up killing us.

Good lordy. Where do you find this stuff?

 

[Killion]

Good lordy. Where do you find this stuff?

... oh, just general observations, reading the National Enquirer while waiting in-line to pay for groceries... watching TV... like 1000 Ways to Die. That sort of thing.