Phoenix CXXII: Drawing a LeBlank

[Fugu]

Last thread:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2173545


What is next now that ASU/Tempe are not an option? Stay tuned for more.

Click to read more...

 

[Fugu]

Last few posts:

The fact that LeBlanc was shocked by the IA decision says a lot about how half-baked his planning has been. Expansion cash and slashing the player salary budget will likely limit the losses this season, but it's hard to see how they can continue in a market that they've neglected and then trashed. It seems that this franchise needs owners with more money and expertise who will be committed to spending more time building the market and the business and less time trying to finagle subsidies from the public purse. Local governments often are happy to support their pro teams, but aren't enthusiastic if the team's owners don't show the commitment and professionalism required to make a partnership work.

Interesting spin on things.

What part of ASU pulling away because people way up in their food chain didn't want to risk the huge cash cow they had going with the state and potential windfall the governor just proposed for them did you miss??

Legislators were questioning how they could separate between ASUs current taxing district and the one IA proposed be tacked on top of it. They simply were not sure about how they could keep them apart from each other and for ASU risking their main resource to well over a billion dollars worth of development during the next decade over a single project just isn't worth that risk.

It didn't matter who they were partnering with. Not IA... not the NHL.... nobody.

The fact that LeBlanc was shocked by the IA decision says a lot about how half-baked his planning has been. Expansion cash and slashing the player salary budget will likely limit the losses this season, but it's hard to see how they can continue in a market that they've neglected and then trashed. It seems that this franchise needs owners with more money and expertise who will be committed to spending more time building the market and the business and less time trying to finagle subsidies from the public purse. Local governments often are happy to support their pro teams, but aren't enthusiastic if the team's owners don't show the commitment and professionalism required to make a partnership work.

The team has been in Phoenix for a very long time and has not had the bolded yet.

And now IA wants to build a new arena, and other than the diehard fans that will watch the team wherever it plays, they would basically be starting all over again. As much as LeBlanc may say he's committed to the market and maybe he really believes it himself, his group are not the owners this team needs.

Look, this is just not a Coyotes issue. Denver and Salt Lake are getting all the new tech jobs and millennials, and Dallas, TX has become a corporate juggernaut while Phoenix still thinks its 1993 and they can be market themselves as an over-sized Cancun. This should be a wake up call to the Phoenix area and Arizona if they lose them that things have to change at all levels. The hockey team is symbolic of so many who move to Phoenix: Can't pay their bills and then end up stuck or leaving.

From where do you glean this knowledge, that I as a resident of this valley can't confirm, in any way that applies to the type of resident that could actually afford tix in the first place?

 

[Llama19]

Last few posts:

Of those, this one is the most interesting...

Originally Posted by Whileee
The fact that LeBlanc was shocked by the IA decision says a lot about how half-baked his planning has been. Expansion cash and slashing the player salary budget will likely limit the losses this season, but it's hard to see how they can continue in a market that they've neglected and then trashed. It seems that this franchise needs owners with more money and expertise who will be committed to spending more time building the market and the business and less time trying to finagle subsidies from the public purse. Local governments often are happy to support their pro teams, but aren't enthusiastic if the team's owners don't show the commitment and professionalism required to make a partnership work.

With neither ASU nor Tempe represented at the original 'arena' announcement last fall, this was more than half-baked...

And, agree with the 'neglected and then trashed' statement...

With the upcoming Monday press conference, will LeBlanc turn it into a Desert(er) Dog Day Afternoon situation?

 

[Fugu]

It does make you wonder what would have happened if Bettman had found one of his spare billionaires to buy this team instead the IA group.

Ah well.

 

[Slashers98]

I finally caught up with this thread after a 48-hour break and now there is another twist in the whole saga Who could have imagined that?

We're ready to get any team via relocation in Quebec City and it seems the number of candidates grows every day!

Tick, tock, the clock is ticking.

 

[MNNumbers]

It does make you wonder what would have happened if Bettman had found one of his spare billionaires to buy this team instead the IA group.

Ah well.

No one wanted it. I suppose we could assume because too many losses.

??

 

[XX]

It does make you wonder what would have happened if Bettman had found one of his spare billionaires to buy this team instead the IA group.

Ah well.

There's no prestige in owning a podunk franchise in a backwater market. If the NHL cared, they would have begged someone like Arte Moreno to take the team for basically free.

 

[Fugu]

No one wanted it. I suppose we could assume because too many losses.

??

There's no prestige in owning a podunk franchise in a backwater market. If the NHL cared, they would have begged someone like Arte Moreno to take the team for basically free.

I would have said the same thing back during the BK days, but things really improved economically, especially after Ballmer's mega-deal to buy the Clippers. I just don't see how you get two bids for expansion teams for $500 MM but you can't offload the Coyotes anywhere?

 

[Llama19]

No one wanted it. I suppose we could assume because too many losses.

??

Well, that was the thing that LeBlanc spouted...he had a 75-page 'business' plan, had been 'studying' this franchise/location (dating back to 2009, IIRC), and 'thought' that it could work...best coach, best captain, best fans...et cetera, et cetera, et cetera...

Despite all of these proclamations...it seems that LeBlanc will become an 'et cetera' in another fashion soon...

 

[Fairview]

Is there a possibility of history repeating itself? In spite of all of Tony's blustering about arena location and with the Tempe location off the table. Does anyone here not believe that the team will play anywhere, as long as they can get someone else to pay the freight? Location will now become secondary to how much someone is willing to pay to have the team play there.

Like a Glendale 2.0 situation?

 

[Mightygoose]

I would have said the same thing back during the BK days, but things really improved economically, especially after Ballmer's mega-deal to buy the Clippers. I just don't see how you get two bids for expansion teams for $500 MM but you can't offload the Coyotes anywhere?

Maybe so.

However also what happened around the time of the Balmer bid, the 15mil/year arena deal went away as well as a continued drop in attendance every year and looks to get much for next season baring some miracle ray of hope.

With the NHL having nowhere near the media deal as as the NBA north the profile in most US markets, there is absolutely no way the Coyoyes can even dream of being worth close to 500 Million, not even the 300+ million valuation since Baroway entered the picture.

Maybe for an out of market purchase, they'll get it but for anyone looking to keep it there, unless something moves on the arena front again...they'll have to pay someone to take the team off their hands

 

[The Feckless Puck]

It does make you wonder what would have happened if Bettman had found one of his spare billionaires to buy this team instead the IA group.

Ah well.

The one thing the Coyotes have lacked in their entire existence in Arizona is an owner or owners with skin in the game. What they need is a rich, skilled businessperson who likes hockey and loves Arizona. That commodity is virtually non-existent.

Instead, we are stuck with tycoons (Moyes/Ellman), the League (who were making a point vs. Balsillie more than anything), and IceArizona (the ultimate carpetbaggers and shell-game specialists).

When the Coyotes move, the narrative will be that "hockey failed in Arizona." And because of that narrative, the NHL won't be back here in my lifetime. But the real narrative should be, "hockey failed Arizona."

 

[Fairview]

I would have said the same thing back during the BK days, but things really improved economically, especially after Ballmer's mega-deal to buy the Clippers. I just don't see how you get two bids for expansion teams for $500 MM but you can't offload the Coyotes anywhere?

20+ years of double digit losses would certainly scare a lot of investors away. At least with an expansion franchise, you have something new and somewhat unknown, so the potential is still there.

 

[Killion]

...With neither ASU nor Tempe represented at the original 'arena' announcement last fall, this was more than half-baked...

Right. It was really nothing more than the "announcement of a concept, an idea". Yet it was presented as fait accompli complete with P3 broad-stroke financing "suggestions" & inferences, projected opening date & full color renderings. Signed an "exclusive negotiating contract" with Cattelus, hired Lobbyists, whole 9 yards. The reason they went about it the way they did is obvious; they felt the need to provide & communicate a positive to the market, to reassure it. That they were fully committed....That it wasnt they themselves that were responsible for the meltdown in Glendale, it was the City & location. LeBlanc's gone out of his way to trash both, no way he can walk all that back even if one assumes he's even capable of being honest with himself & accepts responsibility for what he himself authored & then proceeded to take for granted & abused. So they trotted out this Hail Mary of a concept after looking at War Vets, after trying to talk with Sarver, after scouting at least 3 other locations in the East Valley and hitting Dead End's.... When asked if this failed he said "we have no back-up plan". And now according to the NHL by way of Dreger they do in fact have "options"? Does anyone really buy that? Anything they have to say? Im assuming the Press Conference called for tomorrow is still on as Worsley seems intent on pursuing this issue, could well be a blacker day for IA than even Friday was with what could come out.

 

[TheLegend]

I would have said the same thing back during the BK days, but things really improved economically, especially after Ballmer's mega-deal to buy the Clippers. I just don't see how you get two bids for expansion teams for $500 MM but you can't offload the Coyotes anywhere?

Strange as it may sound but for whatever reason, the league wants to keep this market.

You were correct that back in the BK days the economy really sucked. Especially in Arizona and Nevada. Add in the additional poisoning by Moyes and Co. and it isn't hard to see that you weren't going to get many takers back then.

 

[Llama19]

Right. It was really nothing more than the "announcement of a concept, an idea". Yet it was presented as fait accompli complete with P3 broad-stroke financing "suggestions" & inferences, projected opening date & full color renderings. Signed an "exclusive negotiating contract" with Cattelus, hired Lobbyists, whole 9 yards. The reason they went about it the way they did is obvious; they felt the need to provide & communicate a positive to the market, to reassure it. That they were fully committed....That it wasnt they themselves that were responsible for the meltdown in Glendale, it was the City & location. LeBlanc's gone out of his way to trash both, no way he can walk all that back even if one assumes he's even capable of being honest with himself & accepts responsibility for what he himself authored & then proceeded to take for granted & abused. So they trotted out this Hail Mary of a concept after looking at War Vets, after trying to talk with Sarver, after scouting at least 3 other locations in the East Valley and hitting Dead End's.... When asked if this failed he said "we have no back-up plan". And now according to the NHL by way of Dreger they do in fact have "options"? Does anyone really buy that? Anything they have to say? Im assuming the Press Conference called for tomorrow is still on as Worsley seems intent on pursuing this issue, could well be a blacker day for IA than even Friday was with what could come out.

This is true...

And it seems that in every turn where LeBlanc 'tried' to illicit support, from the Scottsdale Polo Club, Mix1, and among other things, there was always backlash and lawsuits...

There seems to be more on the minus side of LeBlanc and then there is on the plus side...

 

[Killion]

Strange as it may sound but for whatever reason, the league wants to keep this market.

... I honestly dont think they really care one way or the other TL. Ambivalent about it, dont have a long-range plan at all. Everything theyve done entirely reactive, in reaction to events that played out to wit they never anticipated nor expected leading up to Moyes' 2009 BK & thereafter. The plan was to have Reinsdorf installed, no plan thereafter but to shut-out Balsillie. Everything thats followed short-term & flawed. Patchwork. All they really did in installing IA as faux owners was to put a cap on the raging fire that could be seen for miles but that fire was still burning hot underground & just a matter of time before she blew yet again. Bottom line is that had Glendale not been so accommodating that club wouldve been long gone. And the thanks they've received for it? LeBlanc & Bettman turning the flame throwers on GRA, the municipality (location) & the City itself.

 

[MNNumbers]

I would have said the same thing back during the BK days, but things really improved economically, especially after Ballmer's mega-deal to buy the Clippers. I just don't see how you get two bids for expansion teams for $500 MM but you can't offload the Coyotes anywhere?

It does make you wonder what would have happened if Bettman had found one of his spare billionaires to buy this team instead the IA group.

Ah well.

Fugu,

These are 2 different questions. There was no one else who wanted it coming out of BK, and when the NHL was seeking to unload it (which we are still not sure they actually did).

If you are asking why someone hasn't purchased it from IA since then, because the Ballmer situation happened, etc.....

Then I have a different answer:
1- We have no idea how much actual debt is associated with this franchise.
2- We have no idea what the actual ownership situation is, with respect to how much legal involvement the NHL itself is entitled to have.
3- We don't know if IA is willing to divest itself before it dries itself up.
4- IA's ownership has been such an example of poor ownership that the market is in a bad place.

IF, and I do mean IF, someone else wanted the franchise, and could stomach the 3-4 years of losses necessary to make it work, I think it MIGHT be possible to make a go in Glendale. But, even then, I am not sure about the price points in the market.

Vegas, by contrast, is running above league-average prices, and have 15000 or so STH sold for a few years. Foley has a much better place to start, in a new market, for his 500M, than anyone buying the Yotes and keeping them in Glendale would have a place to start.

 

[aqib]

From where do you glean this knowledge, that I as a resident of this valley can't confirm, in any way that applies to the type of resident that could actually afford tix in the first place?

Some people differ to those who actually live some place. Others don't

 

[Killion]

This is true...

... yeah, and can you ever imagine seeing this guy having a Jim Bakker or Jimmy Swaggart moment, breaking down in tears & confessing to having made all kinds of "mistakes" & apologizing?... cuz I sure cant imagine it.

 

[TheLegend]

... I honestly dont think they really care one way or the other TL. Ambivalent about it, dont have a long-range plan at all. Everything theyve done entirely reactive, in reaction to events that played out to wit they never anticipated nor expected leading up to Moyes' 2009 BK & thereafter. The plan was to have Reinsdorf installed, no plan thereafter but to shut-out Balsillie. Everything thats followed short-term & flawed. Patchwork. All they really did in installing IA as faux owners was to put a cap on the raging fire that could be seen for miles but that fire was still burning hot underground & just a matter of time before she blew yet again. Bottom line is that had Glendale not been so accommodating that club wouldve been long gone. And the thanks they've received for it? LeBlanc & Bettman turning the flame throwers on GRA, the municipality (location) & the City itself.

Yet they had two Grade A opportunities to relocate them outside of Balsillie's attempt. and do it without really harming themselves and didn't.

 

[madhi19]

There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen.

Lenin really had a way with words.

 

[MNNumbers]

Yet they had two Grade A opportunities to relocate them outside of Balsillie's attempt. and do it without really harming themselves and didn't.

I have followed this saga, Legend, as you know.

Which 2 opportunities do you speak of?

 

[Killion]

Yet they had two Grade A opportunities to relocate them outside of Balsillie's attempt. and do it without really harming themselves and didn't.

Well lets just look at that for a moment TL, what you call "Grade A"...

1) Hamilton - 2009... over MLSE's, Bettmans & Jacobs dead bodies etcetera etcetera...
2) Winnipeg - 2009-2010... after Glendale's $25M?...
3) Winnipeg - 2011 - 15 mins away frm pulling the trigger, Glendale steps up again, $25M, conflag in Atlanta...
4) QC/Portland/Seattle - 2012/13... all detailed herein & elsewhere, again, Glendale stepping up to the plate...

The only "Grade A" Id assign to anyone would be to the COG, Grade A You Know Whats for agreeing to & coughing what they did however in doing
so removed & downgraded the Grade A threat of a Relo to being non-grade, inedible to the NHL. Why exchange $25M X 2 and then a $235M AMC?

 

[MNNumbers]

Well lets just look at that for a moment TL, what you call "Grade A"...

1) Hamilton - 2009... over MLSE's, Bettmans & Jacobs dead bodies.
2) Winnipeg - 2009-2010... after trash talking their arena?
3) Winnipeg - 2011 - 15 mins away frm pulling the trigger, Glendale steps up, sudden conflag in Atlanta,
4) QC/Portland/Seattle - 2012/13... all detailed herein & elsewhere, again, Glendale stepping up to the plate.

The only "Grade A" Id assign to anyone would be to the COG, Grade A You Know Whats for agreeing to & coughing what they did however in doing so removed & downgraded the Grade A threat of a Relo to being non-grade, not happening, inedible.

Well, something like this is where I was going....

They had chances, but the key point is:
The NHL doesn't really want to relocate. They have a slight bias to stay in a market, for the sake of convincing municipalities to build them arenas, because then they can blackmail them for more money later, too. If teams actually have to build themselves, then they don't have as much power in negotiations later. So, the league actually WANTS to stay, to a certain extent.

Now, with the Valley:
They could have allowed Balsillie to purchase, but he was blacklisted before, and that was a power struggle, one which the league would go to any length to win.

After that, twice they could have moved, but Glendale gave them 25M to stay. Since they prefer to stay (and this is EXACTLY the reason why), they stayed.

When they decided to sell the franchise, they could have moved it, but Glendale offered them 15M/yr (and, again, this is EXACTLY the reason why), so they stayed. Plus, at this point, there was no good place to move them, since Allen in Portland wasn't interested. Seattle? no arena. Quebec? no arena yet. KC? no sweetheart deals. etc

The only good chance they had to relocate was immediately after Glendale voided the lease. And, they let that go, true, but they had a court date first. In that case, I think you could say they let the opportunity pass because they wanted to test Glendale's resolve in court. Which makes sense from the above: Stay for the sake of financial leverage.

Since that time, there hasn't been a 'good chance' to move.

This summer, however, there is:

One year lease signed in January (and if we are right, that will have to be signed in January every year, so you can't leave without a lame duck situation). And, signed in secret, where not many know this is in effect.
New arena options drying up.

Good chance to go, if there is a place to go. They can easy blame Glendale, ASU and Arizona on the way out.