Phoenix CXX: High Tempe-rature

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MNNumbers

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I see your point, K. 3rd arena is definitely worst for Server.

Coyotes stay....GRA has fewer open dates. That's to Server's advantage.

AEG continues to manage GRA with Coyotes there...Less incentive to aggressively book events.

Coyotes leave market.... One plus for Sarver is that he is the only Name arena. Naming rights for his arena might go up. Minus...Whoever manages GRA more has to be serious...
 

Killion

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^^^ yeah... better to deal with the Devil you know than the one you dont.... as it is he's got a lock on the market... Suns, Mercury & Rattlers calling TSRA home, lots of games scheduled and... venue of preference for arena events & concerts due to location if not price. He's been a direct beneficiary of what I believe was the deliberate Tanking of Glendale Arena under NHL ownership in conjunction with AEG followed by the lack of financial wherewithal & experience, absolute incompetence & dysfunction under IA control in conjunction with Global-Spectrum. For Sarver & TSRA, a happy & healthy situation. Dudes down 101 havent got a clue, havent the wherewithal to buy one, all is right with the world. What competition? However, you pull those 41 Coyote dates from GRA, new facility in Tempe' bam smack in ASU's front yard vying for concert's, Glendale bereft of an anchor probably looking to poach the Rattlers and or securing an Arena Football Team or whatever, dropping money like its water on Guaranteed Performance Fee's etc, well, thats a problem. Headache he doesnt need.
 
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PCSPounder

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Two teams with separate owners works in Boston and Chicago.

Those are two markets where local TV $$ overcomes the deficiencies of sharing arenas by a healthy measure.

Phoenix would be considered on the precipice except for the retirement hordes... which may not matter except it seems low TV impact for the Coyotes.

Now... perhaps we should be finding ways to blow up the current revenue model. I'm all eyes and ears, but maybe not hopeful it happens anytime soon... plus the old "be careful what you ask for" principle.
 

Killion

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Now... perhaps we should be finding ways to blow up the current revenue model. I'm all eyes and ears, but maybe not hopeful it happens anytime soon... plus the old "be careful what you ask for" principle.

Right, like a Relegation Model or whatever.... not gonna happen.... see, here are some basic facts.... the sport of choice for the urban poor is basketball.... the sport of choice for maintenance level employee's is bowling... the sport of choice for front line workers is football... the sport of choice for supervisors is baseball... the sport of choice for middle management is tennis... and, the sport of choice for corporate officers & executives is golf.... ergo the higher you go up the corporate ladder, the smaller your balls become... furthermore, countless thousands upon thousands populating municipal, state/provincial & national capitals playing marbles.... so dont expect any radical changes to anything anytime soon PCS. Takes balls. And as we can see.... Also..... y'know the Japanese flag, the one with the suns rays emanating from the center?... well... its my theory that that is in reality a Pie Chart illustrating the % of the Japanese population who believe in Godzilla.... about 50% last time I looked.... Though it may have changed.... Mothra... did some damage apparently.
 

Ciao

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the team's share of the area taxation scheme would need to minimally clear $20M-$30M/year for this to work - including $10M-$20M in tax revenues to be directed back to the City/State/ASU to repay their $200M 'contribution' to capital costs, as well as another $5M-$10M to subsidize operations.

that just ain't happening.

the best subsidy this franchise will ever see in the Phoenix area is the one they just threw away two years ago by arrogantly breaching their golden lease in Glendale.

surely Bettman comprehends this cannot possibly work now. and surely he is making plans for this franchise. i still think it will be moved to Vegas.

Vegas?

I'm not following your train of thought. How would they now go to Vegas?
 

Killion

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Just a theory some of the posters in this thread came up with to explain how the Yotes will leave, and that it's Vegas after all.

Pretty sure GS is the only one here who believes that that's a possibility.... as conspiracy theories go, I'd say its about 98% improbable to 2% probable however as this is the NHL were talking about... well... expect the unexpected. Theyve done stranger things, pulled all kinds of crazy stunts over the years, decades.
 

PCSPounder

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I think Killion set me up for this. Lecturing anyone in Timbers Army about the Japanese sunburst has its price.

cd54ea971248c2d62e47054fb5d9228f.jpg


BTW, I wasn't even referring to pro/rel. How do you collect media revenue in a post-cable (and maybe more likely post-public stadium funding) environment? I'd think someone has something in mind, frankly.
 
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Killion

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I think Killion set me up for this. Lecturing anyone in Timbers Army about the Japanese sunburst has its price...

... indeed... thank you for sharing the Timbers Pie Chart PCS.... as I understand it, represents the % of fans who are in fact officers & enlisted personnel in a joint NSA/CIA-NASA Secret Space Battalion engaged in cleansing the Dark Side of the Moon & the Planet Mars of Alien infestations. Code named Timbers Army. 6 months on, 6 months off planet earth.
 

Llama19

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Ray Anderson’s 3-year ASU tenure marked by sweeping changes

To quote one of his changes:

"Announced an exclusive negotiation agreement between the Coyotes and Catellus Development Corp., ASU’s athletic facilities district developer, to work towards the finalization of a commercial development project within the district along Tempe Town Lake and build two new arenas that would house the Coyotes and ASU hockey."

Source: http://arizonasports.com/story/987168/ray-andersons-3-year-asu-tenure-marked-sweeping-changes/
 

Llama19

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Any update on the Tempe project? It's been very quiet lately.

Nada...

There were no prefiles to the State Legislature related to the new Tempe 'arena' project...

However, Gov. Doug Ducey will be giving his State of the State address (theme is "Boundless Opportunity") at 2:00 p.m local time.

Will there be anything on Mr LeBlanc's 'special tax district' proposal in that speech?

Follow updates using this source: http://www.azcentral.com/story/news...ug-ducey-state-address-live-updates/96268236/
 

Whileee

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May 29, 2010
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Any update on the Tempe project? It's been very quiet lately.

Well, Catellus hasn't updated their web content about the development plans to include anything about the Coyotes or a new NHL arena.

http://www.catellus.com/projects/the-district-at-arizona-state-university

Went back and read the story from the November announcement (http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nhl/coyotes/2016/11/14/arizona-coyotes-asu-agree-2-facility-deal-tempe/93784410/), and noted some interesting points:

1) Tempe mayor didn't even know about the plan for a new arena in his city until the news conference.

2) Phoenix mayor (Stanton) threw "cold water" on the plan, indicating that a third arena in the region didn't make sense, "especially when it would likely require new public dollars".

3) Glendale officials were "also skeptical", noting that they had already shelled out $180 million to build an arena for the Coyotes and that Coyotes officials had indicated that the arena would provide them with sufficient revenue to be successful.
 

Killion

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Well, Catellus hasn't updated their web content about the development plans to include anything about the Coyotes or a new NHL arena.

... all very strange isnt it Whileee?... you look around, any other situation past, present or future on the Continent be it Seattle, Sacramento, Edmonton, Calgary or wherever, even just reno's to an existing facility like in St.Louis, all kinds of media coverage as the parties involved arent afraid to be releasing inf to the media & public, recognizing the importance of transparency and when they dont... some intrepid reporter will dig, file FOI Requests, reporting on even that process. Yet here? Just... nothing. Parties that should know & be fully engaged "unaware" and no reason to believe their lying about that, like the Mayor of Tempe' for example. Its one thing for LeBlanc to state "no further announcements until the spring" on the heels of an almost "non-announcement" pursuant to Cattelus, but c'mon here. Clock is ticking. "Spring" is like 90 days away. No extension signed. No filings with the State. No comments from anyone of any "matter". Just bizarre. :dunno:
 

Slashers98

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... all very strange isnt it Whileee?... you look around, any other situation past, present or future on the Continent be it Seattle, Sacramento, Edmonton, Calgary or wherever, even just reno's to an existing facility like in St.Louis, all kinds of media coverage as the parties involved arent afraid to be releasing inf to the media & public, recognizing the importance of transparency and when they dont... some intrepid reporter will dig, file FOI Requests, reporting on even that process. Yet here? Just... nothing. Parties that should know & be fully engaged "unaware" and no reason to believe their lying about that, like the Mayor of Tempe' for example. Its one thing for LeBlanc to state "no further announcements until the spring" on the heels of an almost "non-announcement" pursuant to Cattelus, but c'mon here. Clock is ticking. "Spring" is like 90 days away. No extension signed. No filings with the State. No comments from anyone of any "matter". Just bizarre. :dunno:

It's like Leblanc has vanished from the face of the Earth, deleting his Twitter account and all. He has already planned a swift escape! :help:
 

Tom ServoMST3K

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What's your excuse?
At this point I believe signs point to either getting the Tempe ball rolling this year, or relocation. (Que)

Lord knows I've been wrong before, but I'd put some cash on it now, depending on the odds.

Here is every option as I see it (reading the tea leaves).

No Chance:

Seattle or Houston or [Insert non-named city here] relocation (time-frames don't make sense)

No chance IMO, but added for the sake of it

Relocate to Vegas
Sign long term lease with Glendale
Tempe Project brought forward in the leg. and not passed, leading to relo/Glendale emergency lease (This is probably lower for me than others will have it)

Won't be surprised if it happens

The Tempe project gets through the leg. but hits another roadblock, leading to a relocation announcement within 2017
The Tempe project goes through without a show stopping hitch, leading to phoenix threads til the end of time on the BoH board.
Short term (1-2 year) lease at Glendale

My Guess for now

Project doesn't even hit the leg. floor leading to a relocation to Que this year.

I reserve the right to go back and edit this after it becomes clearer to make myself look better :sarcasm:

It's really muddy right now, but I think I have every possibility covered (Seven real options).
 

Mightygoose

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I find it hard to believe the league would 'fold' the franchise. They'll more likely suspend it and give the roster to Vegas but the Golden Knights would still be considered an expansion team along the lines of the Baltimore Ravens 'expansion'

The owners get the 500 million expansion fee which is not shared with the players, the GMs don't have to worry about an expansion draft and the headache of this franchise it put away.

Makes that NY Post rumour from a few years ago true and false at the same time.

Maybe somebody is on to something.....
 

The Feckless Puck

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My guesses:

No chance:
Relocation to Las Vegas
Playing at TSRA with the Suns
Contraction

No chance IMO, but slim possibility:
Relocation to Quebec City
Alternate Scottsdale deal with tribal group at Talking Stick Resort

Who the hell knows:
Agreement with Tempe and ASU for stadium project
Short-term extension with Glendale (2-3 years)
Alternate, last-gasp Tempe deal with tribal group at Scottsdale Six location
Relocation to Seattle or Portland

Guaranteed to happen:
Someone's gonna get royally screwed
Relocation predictions on BoH so long as the team is in Arizona
Abject on-ice misery thanks to Tippett tenure agreement
Me being confused by Killion's habanero chile-inspired spirit-walk posts
FRICKIN' TODD WALSH WILL **** ME OFF WITH HIS STUPID FACE AND AWFUL INTERVIEWS GAAAHHHH
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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My guesses:

No chance:
Relocation to Las Vegas
Playing at TSRA with the Suns
Contraction

No chance IMO, but slim possibility:
Relocation to Quebec City
Alternate Scottsdale deal with tribal group at Talking Stick Resort

Who the hell knows:
Agreement with Tempe and ASU for stadium project
Short-term extension with Glendale (2-3 years)
Alternate, last-gasp Tempe deal with tribal group at Scottsdale Six location
Relocation to Seattle or Portland

Guaranteed to happen:
Someone's gonna get royally screwed
Relocation predictions on BoH so long as the team is in Arizona
Abject on-ice misery thanks to Tippett tenure agreement
Me being confused by Killion's habanero chile-inspired spirit-walk posts
FRICKIN' TODD WALSH WILL **** ME OFF WITH HIS STUPID FACE AND AWFUL INTERVIEWS GAAAHHHH

.... first bolded strikes me as the most plausible scenario at this time, LeBlanc & Company retaining either a 51% majority or 49% minority control/interest, Portland with either Paul Allen or whomever buying in, amenable Lease included. Possible Seattle could work provided the turnaround on their recently announced Key Arena RFP process can be expedited with some haste, immediate improvements effected over the summer, work continuing through the season & into next spring/summer. Maybe Ray B or whomever buying in, 49/51 or 51/49 or whatever. Where that leaves Hansen & SODO no idea but there too, maybe a longer term objective, Key Arena entirely temporary.... 3rd option, outright sale to Quebecor, moved to QC, IA gone. And that I believe thats the 3rd option speaks volumes as to just how messed up this league is, and how they'll very likely take the path of most resistance in bolting for the Pacific Northwest prematurely rather than waiting things out & doing it properly from the get-go.

.... second bolded?.... mebbe I licked one too many toads... kissed one night by a witch in the woods & messed me up some?... hard ta say TFP.... huge blanks, missing time, years... possibly off-planet.... memory washed. :D
 

MNNumbers

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Well, as long as some are making predictions....

My view has always been that I want the parties to make sound decisions. I don't really care what IA and NHL do, as long as their 'partner' does something that makes sense.... The reason I feel that way is that IA and NHL have been less-than-totally truthful and/or ethical in this deal for so long that, if they end up holding the bag, I don't really care.

So, with that in mind. Two different posters here have mentioned that they have a source (and I am assuming it is two different sources, but of course it could be the same source) who has told them that AEG/Glendale have offered a long-term deal with a 1-yr outclause to the Coyotes on relatively favorable terms. Apparently, the IA group would not even talk to them about it. And, in both cases, the word is that the team is not going to get the same offer if they come to the city again. I APPLAUD THIS. The Coyotes have not proven to be as much an asset to the city as hoped, and the only reason to keep them is so that GRA needn't be empty. It's not worth giving away large sums of $$ to accomplish that. So, if this rumor is true, I think it's a great step for Glendale. As far as the future of the franchise, this means that the only way there is a deal with Glendale is on short-term bases. I can't see a long-term arrangement there.

Next, Tempe and the State of Arizona. This all depends on the terms of the proposal IA brings to the table. If the proposal is that the IA group covers all cost overruns immediately, and the IA contribution is in actual immediate $$ (not a promise of naming rights), and there is no ongoing movement of cash to the team (nothing like an AMF, or a constant giving of what would be state taxes on the arena), and if the gov't portion is designed to be paid back over time, then it would be an OK investment. Of course, that won't be the proposal, so I am going to HATE whatever the proposal is. I sincerely hope that the state, the university, and the city don't make a deal with these guys, because I would not trust them to bury my dog.
As far as a prediction: IA has less than a 50% chance to get something through that they can use. They need a constant influx of cash from the gov't partner, and I don't think that AZ, et al have any appetite for that.

So, that leaves a better than 50% chance that there is no deal in Tempe, and no deal in Glendale. What next? Well, I suppose a short-term rent at GRA while they look for another site is possible, but the way the announcement came down this fall, I doubt it. I would say that another attempt is always possible, but I don't think it's too likely, because if a deal with a tribe were possible, I think that IA would have preferred that to working with a gov't agency, where transparency happens. So, the odds of another site coming up are very small to me.

I think, therefore, that there is a 40-50% chance of a relo this summer. Now, the question is, where?

I think Portland is out, because Allen isn't going to pay. So, that leaves, really, QC and Seattle. Interestingly, if the entire city of QC where located at Sault Ste. Marie, on the eastern point of Lake Superior, I don't think there would be any question. Only QC's location on the globe makes a problem. Given that alignment is a major issue, in my opinion, it bears that we look at Seattle first.

So, Seattle: Hansen still wants to build his SoDo arena, but he has a problem: The city isn't going to vote to vacate the street he needs vacated any time soon. There is an RFP going out next week for plans to renovate Key Arena to make it NHL and/or NBA friendly again. Responses are due in April. What that means is that it won't be know exactly what the city is going to do with that until well beyond the window necessary for a relo of the Coyotes this summer. And, THAT'S A BIG PROBLEM. Here is why.... In the event that the city would choose to renovate Key, the work can't start until this fall (2017) at earliest. Key is the temp arena in the region. If it's being renovated, there is no place to play during the renovation. Also, there is some question on the Seattle thread whether any such reno could be acceptable to the NHL. That further creates a problem. City renovates Key, no street vacation, and no place to play for the team. Of course, it's possible that the city does not vote to do that, but you won't know until it's too late to do something. And, even if the Key renovation doesn't happen, Hansen still has a problem with NHL in his building. I can't imagine him giving away the revenue streams in the building to an NHL owner, and the NHL says he is not interested in NHL ownership himself. That means that the economics of playing in SoDo really do not pencil out. So, Seattle seems a big boondoggle.

And, that leaves QC. In spite of alignment... There is one interpretation in QC's favor: The answer to the question "Why no expansion team in Quebec when there is one in Vegas?" Answer: Vegas had to get one NOW, because Foley wanted in right away. So, not knowing what would happen in the Valley of the Sun, the league had to give him his team, or miss the 500M. But, QC may have been denied under the idea that the Arizona franchise might need to relocate. And, thus.... Maybe??

But, the problems associated with both relo options bring me to circle back and say, "I still don't know. Maybe the league will step in again, in a silent fashion, and force the team to continue operating in the Phoenix metro. I just don't know....."

In short, since the league has prolonged any real action, instead choosing the money grab in Vegas, they are perhaps running themselves out of good options. And, if that's the case, it couldn't happen to a more worthy bunch....
 
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