Phoenix CXX: High Tempe-rature

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Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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Either way, he doesn't have much of a track record to gain the confidence of politicians or public officials. Oh, and someone might want to look into how IA conducted themselves as "partners" in their last agreement with a municipality. It's not a pretty sight.

... no, no he certainly doesnt but then look at that class of people & personnel... mind boggling... take the election last month... know who really won that Whileee?.... the Voyageur Space Probe... speeding away from planet earth at 38,000 mph. :(
 

madhi19

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... and as discussed earlier, just "guesstimating" combined, cumulative losses since 2009 surely there coming close to that $500M mark by the end of this season and if the NHL has any hope of making itself whole again then they'd better have a buyer lined up and I mean right now.... This so called "plan", alternative... it doesnt make sense... to "hope" that this arena proposal flys' and the Bill passes this winter/spring and then what? IA signs an Extension at GRA & bleeds another $150M+ over the next 3yrs and the NHL has no problem covering that? Defies logic. Where in the Sam Hell is IA getting all this money from that they can come up with $200M to put towards a new building while absorbing the kinds of losses they are & have been since 2013 WITH the $15M from Glendale? Whats goin on here? Who's underwriting all of this & why?

Want to bet the play about the new arena is to find a local sucker willing to buy them out before they even brake ground. New building half pay by the state, half financed by TIF backed loans. Loss in perpetuity expunged by the same TIF. Wham Bam Thank You Spaceman!
 
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Whileee

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May 29, 2010
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I see it more like Shark Tank...

LeBlanc: I'm seeking $200 million for 50% ownership in an arena in the East valley where the majority of fans reside. Thank you.

O'Leary: Where are your numbers? How do I make my money back? You're Dead to Me...

Okay, that's funny....
 

Llama19

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Want to bet the play about the new arena is to find a local sucker willing to buy them out before they even brake ground. New building half pay by the state, half financed by TIF backed loans. Loss in perpetuity expunged by the same TIF. Wham bang thank you spaceman.

Has that not been the MO of LeBlanc and company from the beginning...

Using other people's money and leveraging that debt...

Kudos to leveraging... ;)
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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Has that not been the MO of LeBlanc and company from the beginning...

Using other people's money and leveraging that debt...

Kudos to leveraging... ;)

again, stick to the facts, Llama, do a reporters' job, not attacking the credibility of both the Coyotes/the NHL or IA, because with comments like above, you also damage the stability of ASU as a partner in this, since it is their TIF District/land isn't it?
 

Llama19

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again, stick to the facts, Llama, do a reporters' job, not attacking the credibility of both the Coyotes/the NHL or IA, because with comments like above, you also damage the stability of ASU as a partner in this, since it is their TIF District/land isn't it?

It appears that you have not been following this saga as closely as most posters here...
 

mesamonster

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Want to bet the play about the new arena is to find a local sucker willing to buy them out before they even brake ground. New building half pay by the state, half financed by TIF backed loans. Loss in perpetuity expunged by the same TIF. Wham Bam Thank You Spaceman!

Interesting theory, but go back 4-5 years when the league was attempting to unload their albatross on buyers.Nobody was taking that smelly sardine! Nothing in the financial metrics has changed enough to warrant a new price tag 4-5X over a few short years of utter futility.
 

madhi19

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Interesting theory, but go back 4-5 years when the league was attempting to unload their albatross on buyers.Nobody was taking that smelly sardine! Nothing in the financial metrics has changed enough to warrant a new price tag 4-5X over a few short years of utter futility.
The game plan for the NHL was always to keep this ungodly experiment going for as long as possible. On somebody else dime off course. The game plan for the ICP is to lose as little money as possible and eventually flip it for a tidy profit. Also on somebody else dime. These two agenda are not mutually exclusive yet, but am telling you there will come a time when they will be... And it soon.
 

Llama19

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The game plan for the NHL was always to keep this ungodly experiment going for as long as possible. On somebody else dime off course. The game plan for the ICP is to lose as little money as possible and eventually flip it for a tidy profit. Also on somebody else dime. These two agenda are not mutually exclusive yet, but am telling you there will come a time when they will be... And it soon.

On or before June 30, 2017, that answer could be revealed...
 

MNNumbers

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Interesting theory, but go back 4-5 years when the league was attempting to unload their albatross on buyers.Nobody was taking that smelly sardine! Nothing in the financial metrics has changed enough to warrant a new price tag 4-5X over a few short years of utter futility.

The game plan for the NHL was always to keep this ungodly experiment going for as long as possible. On somebody else dime off course. The game plan for the ICP is to lose as little money as possible and eventually flip it for a tidy profit. Also on somebody else dime. These two agenda are not mutually exclusive yet, but am telling you there will come a time when they will be... And it soon.

This is actually one of the very interesting things about this whole saga.....

We actually don't know the exact relationship between IA and NHL/Owners/BOG.

The do know a few things:

1 - The BOG chose these guys, after kicking Jamison to the curb. It appeared that Jamison had a better possibility of actually raising he needed cash to purchase the team, but the BOG went with IA anyway. The reasons for this have always puzzled me.

2 - The BOG has loaned IA a significant portion of $$. It was 85M to begin with. Also, IA is borrowing for themselves from CitiBank on and NHL LOC. Just exctly what this means, we don't know.

3 - If the BOG has legal rights to retake control of the team, they had room in summer of 2015 to force a sale to Foley in Nevada. They chose not to do this.

4 - Partially at the negotiating table with the PA, and partially on their own, the owners created revenue redistribution plans in the current CBA which offer low-revenue market teams a large safety net. How pleased Jacobs, et al, really are about that is beyond us.

What we don't know:

Just to what extent the owners think it's good to stay in the Phoenix market, and why they would think that.

How stubborn they all... Having begun this idea of rescuing the team in the Valley, how far will they go?

Since LeBlanc is very personally unhappy with Glendale, does the BOG share that sentiment?

It's so fascinating to wonder about it all....
 

Tom ServoMST3K

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As an aside, looking back on this whole saga, I love how quickly Glendale was kicked to the curb after all they did for the franchise.

a 50 million direct subsidy, and 5 years later, the ownership is yelling at how terrible a partner they are.

Should be a warning sign to all municipalities.
 

Llama19

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As an aside, looking back on this whole saga, I love how quickly Glendale was kicked to the curb after all they did for the franchise.

a 50 million direct subsidy, and 5 years later, the ownership is yelling at how terrible a partner they are.

Should be a warning sign to all municipalities.

LeBlanc needs to change his ways,
Starting with himself in the mirror,
Asking himself to change his ways,
And no message could have been any clearer,
If you want to make the arena in a better place,
Take a look at yourself, and then make that change...

Unfortunately, the mirror seems to be broken... :sarcasm:
 

MNNumbers

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To me, I think LeBlanc has a really tough sell with the Legislature.

Any point he brings up about the need for a new arena can be replied to with some reference to Glendale and GRA.

He already has an arena.
There won't be any new arena-based revenue streams in Tempe, so he can't argue GRA is outdated.
The fans may be in the east, but MAKE MORE FANS IN THE WEST... USE YOUR SUPPOSED GREAT MARKETING SKILLS THAT YOU BRAGGED ABOUT WHEN YOU BOUGHT THE TEAM.

Taxes from players? Already have them.
Taxes from extra economic activity? GRA already produces that for the state of AZ. AZ loses very little of those by not facilitating a new arena.

Just play at GRA.

Of course, then the hammer comes out.....

Build it, or we relocate away from the Phoenix and Arizona.... From both LeBlanc and Bettman.
 

Mightygoose

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And if that hammer does come out, then it makes IA's request looks for like a subsidy for a private business even more than what LeBlanc wants to dress it up as something different.

It won't look like building new facilities for ASU either as they can just move on to new plans.

So if they threaten to leave, how does the state react then? Are they really going to buckle to the small fish? Glendale caving at least had the rationale of not wanting to lose the tennant of their very expensive and far from paid off. The state does not have as much to lose if they leave.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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To me, I think LeBlanc has a really tough sell with the Legislature.

Any point he brings up about the need for a new arena can be replied to with some reference to Glendale and GRA.

He already has an arena.
There won't be any new arena-based revenue streams in Tempe, so he can't argue GRA is outdated.
The fans may be in the east, but MAKE MORE FANS IN THE WEST... USE YOUR SUPPOSED GREAT MARKETING SKILLS THAT YOU BRAGGED ABOUT WHEN YOU BOUGHT THE TEAM.

Taxes from players? Already have them.
Taxes from extra economic activity? GRA already produces that for the state of AZ. AZ loses very little of those by not facilitating a new arena.

Just play at GRA.

Of course, then the hammer comes out.....

Build it, or we relocate away from the Phoenix and Arizona.... From both LeBlanc and Bettman.

NO, MNN,

Here's why:

Glendale is solely at fault here, REMEMBER the thread after thread about who would be the white knight per se, after the damage Moyes caused the franchise by doing what he did, ? was/is and never been answered was the Moyes decision to put this franchise into Bankruptcy a illegal act under US Court.

IA nor anyone else is to blame for that, but it seems posters are blaming IA FOR THINGS THEY NEVER WERE PRIVY TO PRE 2010.

The league has other teams/issues that it deals with, that's why they're allowing IA FULL control to run the franchise the way it should've been run, as the other 29 clubs have been run, not having off-ice issues dominating these mega threads....

let IA do what it was charged with doing, the League has no issues with Arizona SINCE LeBlanc et all took control, the BOG doesn't step in a team issue, whether its an arena unless they're asked to.... IA didn't ask for the cancellation/renegotiation of the lease, Glendale did.


IMHO, this franchise is now recovered from/after what Moyes put it through, and I don't see it leaving Arizona, if this was their plan all along. All IA is doing is strengthening the Coyotes franchise, something which should be applauded.
 

MNNumbers

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NO, MNN,

Here's why:

Glendale is solely at fault here, REMEMBER the thread after thread about who would be the white knight per se, after the damage Moyes caused the franchise by doing what he did, ? was/is and never been answered was the Moyes decision to put this franchise into Bankruptcy a illegal act under US Court.

IA nor anyone else is to blame for that, but it seems posters are blaming IA FOR THINGS THEY NEVER WERE PRIVY TO PRE 2010.

The league has other teams/issues that it deals with, that's why they're allowing IA FULL control to run the franchise the way it should've been run, as the other 29 clubs have been run, not having off-ice issues dominating these mega threads....

let IA do what it was charged with doing, the League has no issues with Arizona SINCE LeBlanc et all took control, the BOG doesn't step in a team issue, whether its an arena unless they're asked to.... IA didn't ask for the cancellation/renegotiation of the lease, Glendale did.


IMHO, this franchise is now recovered from/after what Moyes put it through, and I don't see it leaving Arizona, if this was their plan all along. All IA is doing is strengthening the Coyotes franchise, something which should be applauded.

You can believe that if you want to Hutch.

Have you read the Compliance Review yet?

Do you really think that a 15M/yr AMF was appropriate?

Do you really think that NHL/IA didn't strongarm their way into getting that?

Are you really ready to throw Glendale under the bus after they paid about these monies:

200M to build GRA
50M in ransom to the NHL to keep them there.
20M net in AMF costs for the 2 years the AMF was in effect?

And, while you want to abscond IA for everything that happened before they bought the team, right now they are claiming that the reason they want to go to Tempe is that "Our fans are on the East side of the Valley." Glendale itself cannot be blamed for that. And, IA should have done more due diligence and figured that out.

You continue to claim that NHL has nothing to do with the operation of the Coyotes, and that might well be true. However, you can be sure that NHL will have lots to say about this negotiation, especially if it goes slow. We know that because Bettman has already been down there. And, because Bettman is the face of the league. He shows up at every situation where a new arena is being asked for.

You may think that the team is not leaving. I won't argue for or against that. Not now, I won't, anyway. But, in order to convince the legislature to approve the $$ for this arena, then they may need the threat of relocation. If they use it, it will be BOTH IA and NHL talking about that.

Finally, if the franchise has actually recovered, then why do they need a new arena at all? Glendale is allowing AEG to do all the negotiating about the arena. IA wouldn't have to talk to COG at all. Just get a deal and play there.

The obvious answer to the last paragraph is (NOT that COG has poisoned the waters) that there is no longer a 15M/yr AMF to be had from playing there, so COG has no more value to the Coyotes.

I could go on. But that is how I feel.


ETA: As well, my above post, which you attempted to disagree with, was written, not from my own perspective, but rather the perspective of someone in the State Legislature from, idk maybe, Flagstaff. Or, somewhere where there is very little attachment to the team or to the University. If I were that person, my earlier post describes what I imagine my thinking would be.... Which can be summed up as: It's going to be hard to convince me that you need a new place to play, solely because Glendale legally voided your lease with them.
 

Mightygoose

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Nov 5, 2012
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Glendale is at fault?

We're they at fault when they agreed to build and fund the arena in the first place which stopped the team from leaving, likely to Portland?

We're they at fault when they provided 25 million back to back years stopping them from moving back to Winnipeg? Chipman sitting in the league office with chequebook in hand and Glendale came through with 15 minutes to spare.

We're they at fault when they approved the 15 million/year arena contract. Leblanc even stated afterwards, if the city didn't approve it....it would be the 'end of the road'.

There are villains on both sides that lead to Glendale cancelling the lease. Now they're the heel now after all of these years. Let's face reality for the history books. No Glendale = No Coyotes.

Now the team has it's sights on the state to help them with their new home.
Let's see if 'IA committed to Arizona' really means if 'Arizona is not committed to IA'.
 

TheLegend

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NO, MNN,

Here's why:

Glendale is solely at fault here, REMEMBER the thread after thread about who would be the white knight per se, after the damage Moyes caused the franchise by doing what he did, ? was/is and never been answered was the Moyes decision to put this franchise into Bankruptcy a illegal act under US Court.

IA nor anyone else is to blame for that, but it seems posters are blaming IA FOR THINGS THEY NEVER WERE PRIVY TO PRE 2010.

The league has other teams/issues that it deals with, that's why they're allowing IA FULL control to run the franchise the way it should've been run, as the other 29 clubs have been run, not having off-ice issues dominating these mega threads....

let IA do what it was charged with doing, the League has no issues with Arizona SINCE LeBlanc et all took control, the BOG doesn't step in a team issue, whether its an arena unless they're asked to.... IA didn't ask for the cancellation/renegotiation of the lease, Glendale did.


IMHO, this franchise is now recovered from/after what Moyes put it through, and I don't see it leaving Arizona, if this was their plan all along. All IA is doing is strengthening the Coyotes franchise, something which should be applauded.

Actually I have to disagree with putting Glendale solely at fault.

Glendale can't be blamed for wanting a better lease arrangement in the light of Barroway buying in and that $15 million payment to FIG moving to an account controlled by IA. Also in light of IA failing to provide Glendale a timely accounting of their management of GRA.

Where I diverse from it is Glendale thinking they could publicly strong arm IA into negotiating with them. Clearly egos on both sides got in the way here and it resulted in the continuing saga.
 

MNNumbers

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Actually I have to disagree with putting Glendale solely at fault.

Glendale can't be blamed for wanting a better lease arrangement in the light of Barroway buying in and that $15 million payment to FIG moving to an account controlled by IA. Also in light of IA failing to provide Glendale a timely accounting of their management of GRA.

Where I diverse from it is Glendale thinking they could publicly strong arm IA into negotiating with them. Clearly egos on both sides got in the way here and it resulted in the continuing saga.

Now this post I will agree with.

I will agree that there were egos on both sides - COG and IA.

I might disagree slightly with whether Glendale strongarmed IA into negotiating with them, because strongarming is the way all sports teams negotiate with cities, so...tit-for-tat.

But, again, my point here is not: Who is at fault.

My point is that, from the legislature's point of view, a battle of egos in Glendale is a very very poor reason to sink somewhere between 200 and 400M of new taxes or tax breaks into a new arena.

And, again from an individual legislator's point of view, "How do I explain my vote to my constituents in favor of said arena, if the reason it was built was only the battle of egos in Glendale? Why am I supposed to look like I favor giving money to multi-millionaires, even if the only reason they need it is a battle of egos?"

That idea::::How to get a majority of legislators to get across that mountain, seems really really difficult to me.

And, that's what I was trying to say.
 

TheLegend

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Now this post I will agree with.

I will agree that there were egos on both sides - COG and IA.

I might disagree slightly with whether Glendale strongarmed IA into negotiating with them, because strongarming is the way all sports teams negotiate with cities, so...tit-for-tat.

But, again, my point here is not: Who is at fault.

My point is that, from the legislature's point of view, a battle of egos in Glendale is a very very poor reason to sink somewhere between 200 and 400M of new taxes or tax breaks into a new arena.

And, again from an individual legislator's point of view, "How do I explain my vote to my constituents in favor of said arena, if the reason it was built was only the battle of egos in Glendale? Why am I supposed to look like I favor giving money to multi-millionaires, even if the only reason they need it is a battle of egos?"

That idea::::How to get a majority of legislators to get across that mountain, seems really really difficult to me.

And, that's what I was trying to say.


I agree that the optics are going to play a very big part in convincing the legislators to go along with whatever IA proposes.
 

Ciao

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Jul 15, 2010
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Whatever Glendale screwed up on is not material to the fate of the Coyotes. Glendale did not handle some things very well, to be sure, but that doesn't change the big picture. They were screwed over royally by the NHL, it's partners and proxies. That would have continued if Glendale had not found the balls to stick up for itself.

I think the fact that it is December 2016 and the Coyotes have not made arrangements for a place to play the 2017-18 season speaks volumes about what comes next.

Glendale did not cause that.
 

mesamonster

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Oct 13, 2011
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Hutch, give me one measure in which IA has strengthened the Coyote brand? I believe they effectively killed the brand when they bungled their relationship with Glendale. Today they are left with the worst Financials in the league, no signed lease for next year, an uphill battle for TIF monies and a product that is dead last amongst it's peers!
 

GuelphStormer

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Mar 20, 2012
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NO, MNN,

Here's why:

Glendale is solely at fault here, REMEMBER the thread after thread about who would be the white knight per se, after the damage Moyes caused the franchise by doing what he did, ? was/is and never been answered was the Moyes decision to put this franchise into Bankruptcy a illegal act under US Court.

IA nor anyone else is to blame for that, but it seems posters are blaming IA FOR THINGS THEY NEVER WERE PRIVY TO PRE 2010.

The league has other teams/issues that it deals with, that's why they're allowing IA FULL control to run the franchise the way it should've been run, as the other 29 clubs have been run, not having off-ice issues dominating these mega threads....

let IA do what it was charged with doing, the League has no issues with Arizona SINCE LeBlanc et all took control, the BOG doesn't step in a team issue, whether its an arena unless they're asked to.... IA didn't ask for the cancellation/renegotiation of the lease, Glendale did.


IMHO, this franchise is now recovered from/after what Moyes put it through, and I don't see it leaving Arizona, if this was their plan all along. All IA is doing is strengthening the Coyotes franchise, something which should be applauded.
I dont blame Glendale for any of this and think it is utter nonsense for anyone to do so.

They built this franchise an arena - a big, brand new, shiny state-of-the-art arena! - and dumped tens of millions of dollars into propping up a private business that utterly failed to market and sell its own product to an obviously disinterested public.

100% of the blame for this lies at the feet of Bettman, the BoG and the clowns they allowed to babysit. Bettman and Daly flat out lied to Glendale and conned the City out of two $25M extortion payments (just insurance eh Bill? how do you sleep at night, you liar).

And since Glendale grew a pair and sought to create an equal partnership with this organization by cancelling the patently one-sided AMF/lease, rather than buckling down and actually trying to make a legitimate go at things, all we have heard from LeBlanc is how he has been victimized, just like every little con man who gets caught.

And now ... it's beyond stunning that anyone would even entertain his new con for another g(r)ifted arena.
 
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