Phoenix CXVI: Soft Deadlines (or ~ As Soon As Practicable)

[MNNumbers]

Or I guess there is one possibility if relocation does take place. If they Coyotes needed to move after Vegas gets expansion, and Seattle has no arena, they COULD move to Quebec and play out of the Central? It leaves space in the Pacific division for a future Seattle team should they ever get an arena sorted out. If Carolina really is in trouble down the road, they could perhaps relocate to Seattle and the league eventually balances itself out? Is it wrong to think that if there is trouble among franchises, it is both Carolina and Arizona and they will need to be sorted out come seasons end next year? Would again make sense as to why Quebec is denied this year.

Anything could happen.

I think it's far more likely that Quebec is denied because of 2 reasons:

First and foremost: In the end, not enough owners want to deal with the Alignment issues necessary to grant them expansion.

Second and secondary: Who knows what Karmanos is actually doing with those loans? And, what about his sale? Since we don't know, it's another reason to sit tight on Quebec.

 

[MNNumbers]

"Back up the trucks......"

"This dog is dead...... "

"Never should have put a team in the desert...."

Yada..... yada..... yada.....

Sorry to come across as being condescending folks but we're just beating the same old dead horse. Until there is some sort of announcement either way about a new arena, or the Coyotes somehow manage to make nice with Glendale for a while this thread has become an eight track tape stuck on one channel.

Legend,

Check my post on Page 1.

I agree that we just don't know enough. You will see that one line of thought leads only to a conclusion that the team has to move to Vegas. The other line of thought leads to the conclusion that they can't, because an expansion team is going there.

Until we have more information, there is no way to sort that out.

It's fun to guess what any new tidbit of information might mean, though.....

 

[madhi19]

I keep thinking that Bettman said there would be leaks. He normally denies everything. It could be that the leaks do not suggest the actual information. ????

Good summary, the biggest mistake we make is assuming the NHL has a plan. The sad truth is they don't. Beyond kick the can another year down the road there very little long term planning.

 

[Ciao]

That's the path their on, yes, way it seems set to wind down. Suns playing a long game, "slow". Their not in any hurry. Coyotes fans &
other interested parties fed a thin gruel of vague announcements with the odd "update" at critical times throughout the coming season.

I think the Suns probably have the "Don't call us -- we'll call you" approach to a shared facility with the Coyotes. Underwhelming interest in that, unless the Suns get all the arena-related revenues.

 

[GuelphStormer]

Good summary, the biggest mistake we make is assuming the NHL has a plan. The sad truth is they don't. Beyond kick the can another year down the road there very little long term planning.

i think they have a plan, they are just having a hard time implementing it because of things happening beyond their control, some good, some bad: coyotes lost subsidy; panthers gained subsidy; only vegas and quebec submitted expansion bids; seattle had no arena still and did not submit exp. bid. and now, this family mess in carolina. i think they intended to keep the coyotes in glendale, move the panthers to quebec and expand to two unknown western cities with big tv markets. but stuff happened and the plans have changed. ie., now they have to relocate the coyotes and that eats up one of the western spots.

 

[j1012]

i think they have a plan, they are just having a hard time implementing it because of things happening beyond their control, some good, some bad: coyotes lost subsidy; panthers gained subsidy; only vegas and quebec submitted expansion bids; seattle had no arena still and did not submit exp. bid. and now, this family mess in carolina. i think they intended to keep the coyotes in glendale, move the panthers to quebec and expand to two unknown western cities with big tv markets. but stuff happened and the plans have changed. ie., now they have to relocate the coyotes and that eats up one of the western spots.

Seattle does have an arena for a temp solution, nothing else unless Bartoszek can get his back on track. Maybe Portland will be the landing place for the Coyotes.

I for one, see the Suns stalling as a power play to force the departure of the Coyotes or an ownership sell to Sarver.

 

[PhillyWings]

I cannot see Portland. Unless it is at a fire sale price. Bettman's head would explode. If the Coyotes went for half of what LV paid for an expansion team.

 

[BoldNewLettuce]

Hotlanta

 

[powerstuck]

I cannot see Portland. Unless it is at a fire sale price. Bettman's head would explode. If the Coyotes went for half of what LV paid for an expansion team.

If Coyotes are ever to be sold to Portland, it will be for under $200M. I say Coyotes but unless we're talking about some highly seen team like Hawks / Kings / Rangers...which would never happen...I don't see a team going into Portland for more than $200M.

And it has nothing to do with who that team is or from where does it comes...it only has to do with how much Portland wants an NHL team VS how much would NHL like to have an NHL team in that region.

 

[Eco]

Hotlanta

We have had 2, and both left. Sadly, Atlanta is out of the running likely forever.

 

[PCSPounder]

If Coyotes are ever to be sold to Portland, it will be for under $200M. I say Coyotes but unless we're talking about some highly seen team like Hawks / Kings / Rangers...which would never happen...I don't see a team going into Portland for more than $200M.

And it has nothing to do with who that team is or from where does it comes...it only has to do with how much Portland wants an NHL team VS how much would NHL like to have an NHL team in that region.

The question: can the NHL sell a $200M sale as a $400M sale by claiming Paul Allen takes on the debt? That's one way to go about it.

But there's a problem- and this is not common knowledge, but gleaned by reading in between the lines. Allen's Oregon Arena Corp once declared bankruptcy (10 years ago or so), and the rumored intent was to get the arena out from under the "creditors" of the arena... the other 8 investors in the project. The investors won that battle. Allen ended up having to buy the arena from the creditors so the Blazers would remain profitable.

I'd forgotten about that. It used to be that the NHL really coveted Allen; he was used as a foil when Steve Ellman was trying to get the Coyotes into Scottsdale. So maybe this league of questionable characters finds Paul Allen to be too questionable with which to do business.

 

[blues10]

The question: can the NHL sell a $200M sale as a $400M sale by claiming Paul Allen takes on the debt? That's one way to go about it.

But there's a problem- and this is not common knowledge, but gleaned by reading in between the lines. Allen's Oregon Arena Corp once declared bankruptcy (10 years ago or so), and the rumored intent was to get the arena out from under the "creditors" of the arena... the other 8 investors in the project. The investors won that battle. Allen ended up having to buy the arena from the creditors so the Blazers would remain profitable.

I'd forgotten about that. It used to be that the NHL really coveted Allen; he was used as a foil when Steve Ellman was trying to get the Coyotes into Scottsdale. So maybe this league of questionable characters finds Paul Allen to be too questionable with which to do business.

The NHL will do business with anyone with $$$$$$ and even sometimes with non well heeled individuals. The NHL's vetting process is pretty short on the ethics side judging from past transgressions. I would be shocked if Allen was black balled. The league only does that when you don't play by their rules. If he helped them get an arena built in Arizona he is a friend of the NHL. It was even rumoured in 2010 that TNSE was paid money by the NHL to act as a relocation destination for the Coyotes when the COG coughed up $25 large. Of course. TNSE would have taken the team but none the less it had been suggested that they were rewarded financially for helping shake down the COG.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

The majority of posters on these megathreads always give the Coyotes crap for not turning a profit - well, the main reason why back when they were in Phoenix was because of the Suns taking their revenue streams and charging them ungodly amounts of rent.

A situation which will recur if they settle on being the Suns' tenants downtown.

Sometimes it isn't about being profitable, it about losing the least amount of money. The Yotes seem to have lost more money after the move to Glendale than before it.

"Back up the trucks......"

"This dog is dead...... "

"Never should have put a team in the desert...."

Yada..... yada..... yada.....

Sorry to come across as being condescending folks but we're just beating the same old dead horse. Until there is some sort of announcement either way about a new arena, or the Coyotes somehow manage to make nice with Glendale for a while this thread has become an eight track tape stuck on one channel.

One Channel with only one song on it, like Roundabout or something.

We have had 2, and both left. Sadly, Atlanta is out of the running likely forever.

Unless someone else pays the NHL $500 million for a franchise.

 

[YoungGuns]

The NHL will do business with anyone with $$$$$$ and even sometimes with non well heeled individuals. The NHL's vetting process is pretty short on the ethics side judging from past transgressions. I would be shocked if Allen was black balled. The league only does that when you don't play by their rules. If he helped them get an arena built in Arizona he is a friend of the NHL. It was even rumoured in 2010 that TNSE was paid money by the NHL to act as a relocation destination for the Coyotes when the COG coughed up $25 large. Of course. TNSE would have taken the team but none the less it had been suggested that they were rewarded financially for helping shake down the COG.

Or they may have just been guaranteed/promised a team for the following year with the events that were about to unfold with the Thrashers..
Which again may be a possibility, this time with Quebec.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Sometimes it isn't about being profitable, it about losing the least amount of money. The Yotes seem to have lost more money after the move to Glendale than before it.

Yeah, well, they'll lose about as much downtown, because the additional attendance won't be enough to make up for the shortfall of subsidy, loss of revenue streams to the Suns, and rent/facility costs.

IMO it's gotta be ASU or the tribe.

One Channel with only one song on it, like Roundabout or something.

Definitely something from Yes' catalog, one of those 20-minute Jon Anderson caterwauls about existentialism.

Unless someone else pays the NHL $500 million for a franchise.

Don't think there's anyone in Atlanta (or Arizona, for that matter) who's that big of a hockey fan.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Definitely something from Yes' catalog, one of those 20-minute Jon Anderson caterwauls about existentialism.
.

As any Top Gear fan knows - Genesis' 'I Know What I Like'

 

[Fairview]

So we are about 2 weeks from the BIG ARENA ANNOUNCEMENT!!! and there have not been any leaks from potential partners. I am wondering what it is that Tony is going to say?

In the meantime, it would seem that ASU is going ahead with their expansion plans and from what I have read, the arena in their plans does not seem to be NHL sized. Unless I missed something ? I think they are out.

The mayor of Phoenix would like to build a multi-purpose facility to house the Coyotes, Suns and possibly others. He would need the Suns to agree to give up what they have going now and likely receive less in revenue in the new facility. I am not sure how he thinks he can get them to agree and even if they do, the revenue when split that way will likely not be enough for the Coyotes or the Suns to be viable. I don't think that this is the plan for IA.

This brings us to the Tribal solution. The tribe will build the arena for the Coyotes and just hand them the keys to the building. Maybe throw in a few million in pocket change to IA to manage the building as well. All this for the prestige of being home to the homeless team. This is probably the best solution for the Coyotes both financially and from a timetable point of view. It has been mentioned that if the tribe wanted to they could start the ball rolling immediately. No red tape. The thing is, it has been almost a year since COG kicked Tony in the un-mentionables and certainly the tribe would have been aware of the potential of luring the Coyotes since last August at least. Nothing..I think they are out.

The Coyotes need a partner that doesn't need to worry about the bottom line unlike ASU or the tribe. They NEED the state!!!

I think they are going with the idea they floated earlier this year about building and funding the arena in a special tax district. I think they will go anywhere that the district can be set up. The NHL likes the government gravy train and I believe that they think they could have pulled it off earlier this year but that they ran out of time. I think that Tony will announce that they have selected the avenue that they want to pursue. He will say that in the best interest of their partner he will not comment any further on them, but is very very confident that they will be able to announce the final details of the new arena very soon. IA /NHL will then get busy lobbying and greasing whomever needs grease in order to get this done in the next state meeting.

If nothing gets done by early spring, then they go back to GRA with their tail between their legs and try to find a way to get a deal done, without Tony as lead spokesman of course...

 

[Killion]

^^^ Sounds about right to me Fairview though I dont see LeBlanc's role being diminished.

 

[BattleBorn]

^^^ Sounds about right to me Fairview though I dont see LeBlanc's role being diminished.

Agree, if LeBlanc was the real roadblock to a Glendale resolution it seems like it would be easy enough to blow him out, buy his shares from him, and run to AEG for a deal.

 

[Fairview]

^^^ Sounds about right to me Fairview though I dont see LeBlanc's role being diminished.

I am just thinking that any renegotiation with Glendale with all the crap Tony has said about them might be easier if he was not the lead rep for IA. Easier for Glendale, IA and even Tony.

 

[Killion]

I am just thinking that any renegotiation with Glendale with all the crap Tony has said about them might be easier if he was not the lead rep for IA. Easier for Glendale, IA and even Tony.

Oh you bet,no question. He shouldve disappeared in 2013 really. Hired some real Pro's. But that they didnt, that he wasnt forced to Walk the Plank despite innumerable faux pas' & transgressions, gotten rid of the guy.... so no, I dont see him exiting, at least not until that team is sold & relo'd and even then, the good people of Arizona stuck with him, COO or whatever of the AHL Roadrunners.

 

[sipowicz]

Anything could happen.

I think it's far more likely that Quebec is denied because of 2 reasons:

First and foremost: In the end, not enough owners want to deal with the Alignment issues necessary to grant them expansion.

Second and secondary: Who knows what Karmanos is actually doing with those loans? And, what about his sale? Since we don't know, it's another reason to sit tight on Quebec.

Putting a team back in Quebec City makes as much sense as putting a team back in Minnesota, two places the NHL should have never left in the first place!

 

[Killion]

Putting a team back in Quebec City makes as much sense as putting a team back in Minnesota, two places the NHL should have never left in the first place!

sipowicz? ..... are you sure your in the right thread with that quote & this ^^^ post?... what does any of that have to do with the Coyotes?

 

[kihekah19*]

The big announcement will be that one of the potential venues being discussed is out.

Y'all can have a field day with that for a spell.

 

[sipowicz]

sipowicz? ..... are you sure your in the right thread with that quote & this ^^^ post?... what does any of that have to do with the Coyotes?

I'm not even sure about anything anymore, my Sharks 4 straight cup win looks as ridiculous as my Cavs in 4 prediction!