Phoenix CII: Oh, the pain the pain

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Fourier

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Dec 29, 2006
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You can't always get what you want. And burning a expansion market to get out of this mess would be worth it. This situation is interesting on so many level. First the NHL now own all, or most of the debt that the clowns accumulated. Second they have at least two interested buyers. The big question is will QMI/Foley play hardball in order to get a cheaper deal?
I think not, I think whoever buy the Yotes get to overpay because they cash in on the expansion anyway.

Worth it to whom? The NHL. If that was the case, the Yotes would be on the move right now. The NHL wants the Yotes in Phoenix. Of that I have absolutely zero doubt.

And I am not sure what you mean when you say that who ever buys the Yotes will be willing to over pay to cash in on expansion. Would it be a smart business decision to pay $100M more than necessary to get a 1/30th share of even a billion dollars in expansion money?
 

JimAnchower

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Dec 8, 2012
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Why not? When you have hundreds of millions of dollars at stake wouldn't you at the very least get both sides of the story?

Anybody interested in an NHL team is very interested in this saga and has probably been following for quite some time. If you get past all of the media BS from LeBettman it's very easy to find the skeletons in the closet. All one needs to do is pour through the many threads that has existed in the BoH forum.

For most council members in most cities, they will know the local teams and that's about it. There may be a couple in some US cities that have heard of the Arizona Coyotes, but they don't really care. So the potential failure of the Coyotes isn't going to be discussed. If it isn't brought up, they aren't going to call Glendale.

Only now is the real economic impact of stadiums and arenas being discussed in cities, and this information has been out there for at least 30 years. Before, a city would order a report like the Hocking report and would accept because it was what they wanted to hear. Now, there may be a few council members who would question it, but it remains to be seen if that changes if the deal is changed.
 

CasualFan

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Nov 27, 2009
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If you get past all of the media BS from LeBettman it's very easy to find the skeletons in the closet. All one needs to do is pour through the many threads that has existed in the BoH forum.

That's really the most important aspect of the matter, IMO. Anyone who has followed along already knows that there were many, many disingenuous moments in the construction of this lease. Does the culmination of it all create a situation where the contract can be legally voided? Only a judge can answer that question. But the city's position is emboldened by the facts - and that's based on only what's currently public. The Council majority has already weathered the brunt of the NHL propaganda machine and the ignorant echos it creates in its wake. Their will seems awfully strong which leads me to believe that we probably have not yet seen the depths of the swamp. It's absolutely hilarious that they decided to drain it all over LeBlanc's face. Sorry, Tony, just because you negotiated a deal that is more in your favor doesn't make you unethical. :)
 

kihekah19*

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Oct 25, 2010
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Phoenix, Arizona
Worth it to whom? The NHL. If that was the case, the Yotes would be on the move right now. The NHL wants the Yotes in Phoenix. Of that I have absolutely zero doubt.


While it certainly appears that way, I would not be in the least bit surprised if it weren't announced that the team will become the Seattle/Las Vegas/Quebec Coyotes, at any moment.
 

Melrose Munch

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Mar 18, 2007
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While it certainly appears that way, I would not be in the least bit surprised if it weren't announced that the team will become the Seattle/Las Vegas/Quebec Coyotes, at any moment.
You're right not to trust the league front office. We'll see. I think you'll have the team next year, time is running short.
 

Melrose Munch

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Mar 18, 2007
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That's really the most important aspect of the matter, IMO. Anyone who has followed along already knows that there were many, many disingenuous moments in the construction of this lease. Does the culmination of it all create a situation where the contract can be legally voided? Only a judge can answer that question. But the city's position is emboldened by the facts - and that's based on only what's currently public. The Council majority has already weathered the brunt of the NHL propaganda machine and the ignorant echos it creates in its wake. Their will seems awfully strong which leads me to believe that we probably have not yet seen the depths of the swamp. It's absolutely hilarious that they decided to drain it all over LeBlanc's face. Sorry, Tony, just because you negotiated a deal that is more in your favor doesn't make you unethical. :)
So CF, why hasn't council got the restraining order lifted?
 

JimAnchower

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Dec 8, 2012
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It will be interesting to see what LeBlanc and the NHL do for the next week or so. Do they go quiet or go on another media blitz? With the Awards Show next week in Las Vegas, does Gary and Bill go to Glendale before then to apply pressure to the COG?
 

madhi19

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Worth it to whom? The NHL. If that was the case, the Yotes would be on the move right now. The NHL wants the Yotes in Phoenix. Of that I have absolutely zero doubt.

And I am not sure what you mean when you say that who ever buys the Yotes will be willing to over pay to cash in on expansion. Would it be a smart business decision to pay $100M more than necessary to get a 1/30th share of even a billion dollars in expansion money?

The NHL already negotiated a price for the expansion, all the theatrics about starting a process is just... Well theatrics. So they go to Foley or QMI, and they say.

"You can get in now, but at the same price you were about to pay anyway. Since you get a piece of the expansion you were supposed to be in, we jack up the price by half that piece."

What left unsaid is. "If you try to squeeze a better deal, we will go somewhere else and your arena is going to be empty for a long time!"

Either of them is going to bite on that offer because that what they were paying anyway.
 

enarwpg

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Jun 21, 2011
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Oh..... please please please.... let this get to the discovery phase.

I'm betting that it won't.

I could be wrong and probably am, but something will be worked out because I'm thinking there's just too many things the NHL and IA don't want the light of day illuminating. However if the NHL and IA use Sherwood's " delete this after reading " all should be okay.
 

kihekah19*

Registered User
Oct 25, 2010
6,016
2
Phoenix, Arizona
That's really the most important aspect of the matter, IMO. Anyone who has followed along already knows that there were many, many disingenuous moments in the construction of this lease. Does the culmination of it all create a situation where the contract can be legally voided? Only a judge can answer that question. But the city's position is emboldened by the facts - and that's based on only what's currently public. The Council majority has already weathered the brunt of the NHL propaganda machine and the ignorant echos it creates in its wake. Their will seems awfully strong which leads me to believe that we probably have not yet seen the depths of the swamp. It's absolutely hilarious that they decided to drain it all over LeBlanc's face. Sorry, Tony, just because you negotiated a deal that is more in your favor doesn't make you unethical. :)


The general perception around here is that there have been many disingenuous moments, but why? Based on what? Certainly not any facts. I'd still like someone to answer my question as to how a lawyer (Tindall) and a mouthpiece (Frisoni) have (or at least should have) effected the outcome of the decision to go ahead with the lease. The lawyer's job is to tend to the legality of said lease and who really cares what the mouthpiece is up to.

Just yesterday the COG released yet another statement pushing the legality of the lease, but in the next breath proclaimed they are willing to work out a fair and equitable new lease. OBVIOUSLY they don't like the economics of the lease, but it's equally obvious that they are looking at a technicality, or loophole if you will, to improve the economics, it's certainly not about any form of full disclosure, or justice.

If they indeed let legal council persuad them on ecomomics? They got what they deserved!

As I said previously, we have a very liberal jucicial system these days and I would not be surprised if "the letter of the law" (IF THE WAIVER IS NOT VALID), is not followed because of the absurdity of the case.
 

OthmarAmmann

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Jul 7, 2010
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That's laughable at best. The threads here are merely a joke compiled of speculation and "facts" that suit whatever the speculation.

07-minister.jpg
 

CasualFan

Tortious Beadicus
Nov 27, 2009
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Bay Area, CA
Nothing to see here!

It's so hard to pick a favorite, but I'm going with the loss avoidance calculation that compared the RSE lease to the ticket-surcharge model even if the team left - as if the city was somehow bound to use the $3 per ticket revenue model in perpetuity. All while they were holding RFP responses that contained industry standard revenue splits between manager and facility owner.

* one of my favorite BOH searches is "barneyg" "that's not how it works and they know it"
 
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LPHabsFan

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Jul 14, 2003
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Worth it to whom? The NHL. If that was the case, the Yotes would be on the move right now. The NHL wants the Yotes in Phoenix. Of that I have absolutely zero doubt.

And I am not sure what you mean when you say that who ever buys the Yotes will be willing to over pay to cash in on expansion. Would it be a smart business decision to pay $100M more than necessary to get a 1/30th share of even a billion dollars in expansion money?

There's no doubt that the NHL would prefer a healthy NHL in Arizona but the reality is it's not going to happen. There is zero evidence and no likely situation that will result in that.

As to the moving of the Yotes, I believe the general consensus was that it was more the NHL wanting to do things on their own terms and on their own schedule. Hence why the they put the 5 year out clause. The same time the arena in Seattle was (at the time) expected to be finished.

The general perception around here is that there have been many disingenuous moments, but why? Based on what? Certainly not any facts. I'd still like someone to answer my question as to how a lawyer (Tindall) and a mouthpiece (Frisoni) have (or at least should have) effected the outcome of the decision to go ahead with the lease. The lawyer's job is to tend to the legality of said lease and who really cares what the mouthpiece is up to.

Just yesterday the COG released yet another statement pushing the legality of the lease, but in the next breath proclaimed they are willing to work out a fair and equitable new lease. OBVIOUSLY they don't like the economics of the lease, but it's equally obvious that they are looking at a technicality, or loophole if you will, to improve the economics, it's certainly not about any form of full disclosure, or justice.

If they indeed let legal council persuad them on ecomomics? They got what they deserved!

As I said previously, we have a very liberal jucicial system these days and I would not be surprised if "the letter of the law" (IF THE WAIVER IS NOT VALID), is not followed because of the absurdity of the case.

The reason for the general belief of disengenious moments is because there is nothing in this entire saga that makes one iota of logical sense. Tindall being involved in the negotiation is pretty evident since A - lawyers are usually the leads on these types of negotations and B - he was on retainer which even though he only offered advice we was doing so while either 1 - being employed by the Yotes or 2 - knowing he was going to employed by them and C - he explicitly stated he negotiated the JIG lease which included Ice Edge and one Anthony Leblanc.

The lawyers here might be able to delve more into whether or not it would make a difference it was under a different LLC and had a few different players but still had some of the same. And on top of that, how much difference is there between the two leases and whether that matter or not.

Frisoni, we know nothing right now. She worked for the COG and now she is doing consulting work for the Coyotes. Public Relations people can be involved in this if they're high enough to influence council members on the public perception of the deal and say why certain things might be better or worse if things were written differently. Again, nothing has been released in terms of information but there are lots of ways people can be involved.

Why the COG wants to end this lease but still willing to work with the Coyotes on a new one is fairly easy. The current one was done illegally (in their minds) and is also not in the publics best interest. So they want to get rid of the illegal one and make a new, legal one.

The more important one is the first part since that's what is legally important. The second part is simply to add to the whole illegal part and just seem like icing on the cake. Also it's part of their PR show as well.

And are you saying that the courts should ignore whether or not it's illegal just because the situation is so bizarrely absurd? Three words. MCdonald's hot coffee.
 

Melrose Munch

Registered User
Mar 18, 2007
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Because the standard and accepted course of injunctive relief is to grant the plaintiff TRO until hearing?
Fair enough, but they can get the hearing moved up right

The NHL already negotiated a price for the expansion, all the theatrics about starting a process is just... Well theatrics. So they go to Foley or QMI, and they say.

"You can get in now, but at the same price you were about to pay anyway. Since you get a piece of the expansion you were supposed to be in, we jack up the price by half that piece."

What left unsaid is. "If you try to squeeze a better deal, we will go somewhere else and your arena is going to be empty for a long time!"

Either of them is going to bite on that offer because that what they were paying anyway.
So how will this go. They'll ask QC for 400 (340 + 60 relocation) Quebecor won't balk at that right?
 

ponder719

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Jul 2, 2013
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Philadelphia, PA
Worth it to whom? The NHL. If that was the case, the Yotes would be on the move right now. The NHL wants the Yotes in Phoenix. Of that I have absolutely zero doubt.

And I am not sure what you mean when you say that who ever buys the Yotes will be willing to over pay to cash in on expansion. Would it be a smart business decision to pay $100M more than necessary to get a 1/30th share of even a billion dollars in expansion money?

Though with that, you also get a team already constructed, with a marketable anchor star in Oliver Ekman-Larsson, and the #3 pick in the draft, which will end up most likely being your preferred choice of the hopefully marketable Noah Hanifin, Mitch Marner, or Dylan Strome. You also get to ice a team this year, and begin collecting revenues/building brand equity in your new market, hopefully speeding up the date to profitability by a year. Also also, you don't have to hope that there are valuable pieces left unprotected in an expansion draft; you have a complete accounting of what you start with, and that start includes a reasonably enviable cap situation, and two players, aforementioned, who are almost guaranteed to be more valuable to your franchise than any expansion player.

There are some tangible benefits to jumping the line, above and beyond the $33.3M refund an owner would get on that $100M relocation fee.
 

madhi19

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Fair enough, but they can get the hearing moved up right


So how will this go. They'll ask QC for 400 (340 + 60 relocation) Quebecor won't balk at that right?

They ask and get whatever was already agree on for the expansion. How they divide it, and how much the clowns are going to get screwed will be the NHL business. And we won't know the truth, even if they come up with a official number anyway. It took years to learn the details of the Thrashers sale.
 

Major4Boarding

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Jan 30, 2009
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For most council members in most cities, they will know the local teams and that's about it. There may be a couple in some US cities that have heard of the Arizona Coyotes, but they don't really care. So the potential failure of the Coyotes isn't going to be discussed. If it isn't brought up, they aren't going to call Glendale.

Only now is the real economic impact of stadiums and arenas being discussed in cities, and this information has been out there for at least 30 years. Before, a city would order a report like the Hocking report and would accept because it was what they wanted to hear. Now, there may be a few council members who would question it, but it remains to be seen if that changes if the deal is changed.

If you break this out of the frame of solely Arena Construction and private/public partnership, I can assure you that the Commissioners of Broward County has contacted Glendale quite frequently in Broward's Lease negotiations with the Panthers.

I'll go with you, however, that if it doesn't involve construction of an Arena with Hockey as the primary most cities may not be aware of the events in Glendale.
 

CasualFan

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Nov 27, 2009
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Bay Area, CA
Fair enough, but they can get the hearing moved up right?

Why? Speeding things up doesn't appear to help the city's position. Besides, the longer they sit there with the door open to negotiate an equitable agreement, the better their case appears to cap IA's damages for any cascading impacts that voiding the contract may have. Or to paraphrase "look, the existing deal and subsequent hiring of city staff was in violation of the law but you can mitigate your exposure by simply returning to the table and signing a new lease constructed without the previous unethical behaviors"
 
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