Phoenix CII: Oh, the pain the pain

kdb209 · Jun 12, 2015

Glacial · Jun 12, 2015

I was going to post the exact same image when I read the title! The NHL's been Lost in Glendale far longer than the 3 seasons the classic sci-fi series ran. :help:

Some comments from the last thread:

$250,000 bond... is that more than Leblanc's stake in the Coyotes?

If they commit to playing this out to courts, at least to the point of starting next season in Glendale, could that mean there might be a midseason relocation if they lose the court case? Weren't the last midseason major league relocations some WHA or ABA teams? (not talking midseason changes of stadiums or arenas. IIRC, every sport had at least one of those the past 30 years) Of course, that would wreak utter havoc with travel schedules unless they have a Plan B travel schedule issued for every team prepared in advance?

Killion · Jun 12, 2015

The events of the last 48-72hrs have absolutely crippled this team for the coming season. No question about that. Sponsors, suppliers, suite holders, seasons ticket subscribers... loss of confidence and with this hanging over their heads its gunna be bleak. I sympathize with the fans but no, I cant sympathize with IceArizona & the NHL. They are reaping what theyve sown. This all could have been avoided several years ago, the market well on its way to recovery without bleeding the municipality to death in the process had the NHL themselves gotten creative with pricing & financing in attracting the kind of ownership Arizona deserves. This is it. Death knell. Bells tolling. Relationship beyond fractured.

Tawnos · Jun 12, 2015

Killion said:
The events of the last 48-72hrs have absolutely crippled this team for the coming season. No question about that. Sponsors, suppliers, suite holders, seasons ticket subscribers... loss of confidence and with this hanging over their heads its gunna be bleak. I sympathize with the fans but no, I cant sympathize with IceArizona & the NHL. They are reaping what theyve sown. This all could have been avoided several years ago, the market well on its way to recovery without bleeding the municipality to death in the process had the NHL themselves gotten creative with pricing & financing in attracting the kind of ownership Arizona deserves. This is it. Death knell. Bells tolling. Relationship beyond fractured.

I have to agree. And I was more optimistic on this playing out well in the end than a lot of people. Sometimes, though, when you're negotiating with someone and they keep giving ground, it's really difficult to stop your own momentum. Just ask the major labor unions in this country who took and took and took and put their employers in serious jeopardy (looking at auto workers and airline workers). Sorry for the politics there. That seems to be what happened, with the CoG playing the role of the employers in my little analogy. Then the CoG did a little double take, and here we are.

You have to wonder... is this restraining order simply a stall tactic while the NHL and IA explore their options?

TheFederalLeague · Jun 12, 2015

Killion said:
The events of the last 48-72hrs have absolutely crippled this team for the coming season. No question about that. Sponsors, suppliers, suite holders, seasons ticket subscribers... loss of confidence and with this hanging over their heads its gunna be bleak. I sympathize with the fans but no, I cant sympathize with IceArizona & the NHL. They are reaping what theyve sown. This all could have been avoided several years ago, the market well on its way to recovery without bleeding the municipality to death in the process had the NHL themselves gotten creative with pricing & financing in attracting the kind of ownership Arizona deserves. This is it. Death knell. Bells tolling. Relationship beyond fractured.

This is what I've been wondering. They get together next week and put something together and then what? What happens with all of the people who've denounced Glendale? Do they forgive and forget? Tony's made peace and all is well? Could be. The common fan may have a short memory, but sponsors? Hmph.

Govment Cheese · Jun 12, 2015

COG vs IA meeting, would like to see COG stick to their guns cap AMF at what was originally budgeted (6M). The out clause is going to be a non-starter for IA, so maybe a reset. If a deal can be worked out, 5 years from the time of the signing they can leave. Performance clause will be a tough one since booking non-hockey events for IA is about the same as them finding their butts with both hands.

Now we just need to get one of these in the meeting room!

Whileee · Jun 13, 2015

Tawnos said:
I have to agree. And I was more optimistic on this playing out well in the end than a lot of people. Sometimes, though, when you're negotiating with someone and they keep giving ground, it's really difficult to stop your own momentum. Just ask the major labor unions in this country who took and took and took and put their employers in serious jeopardy (looking at auto workers and airline workers). Sorry for the politics there. That seems to be what happened, with the CoG playing the role of the employers in my little analogy. Then the CoG did a little double take, and here we are.

You have to wonder... is this restraining order simply a stall tactic while the NHL and IA explore their options?

I'm pretty sure that the NHL and IA already know their options, and none of them are pretty.

The CoG's timing was diabolical, but shows for about the first time that they have a crew in place that knows how to negotiate and play hardball. I think that this whole episode has made it clear that Glendale is not going to be the long-term home of the Coyotes. Neither the CoG nor IA can afford it. This maneuver by Glendale gets them better terms for the next year or two until the Coyotes relocate, and the timing will make it very difficult for the NHL to put the Coyotes anywhere else for next year, buying Glendale time to put a more reasonable arena management agreement in place for the following year.

It's perhaps important to remember that this strategy of the CoG isn't being cooked up and executed by the mayor and his part-time council members. This is being planned and executed by city administration and Glendale's legal team. I'm pretty sure they know exactly what Tindall and Frisoni contributed to the arena management agreement.

LeafShark · Jun 13, 2015

Any new deal would require IA to give up on their end, and they've already hit the outclause and would hit any negotiated outclauses. Neither party can afford to lose more money, and frankly the only stability that existed was the contract that existed in the first place. Unless the city completely rescinds their action and declares the original contract valid once more, I don't see how the two sides can come together. The city of Glendale cannot afford the National Hockey League, and the National Hockey League cannot afford them. The only way the team stays is if the City of Phoenix throws the team some millions to stay in the old barn. In any event, something must happen in 2 weeks.

Tawnos · Jun 13, 2015

Whileee said:
I'm pretty sure that the NHL and IA already know their options, and none of them are pretty.

It isn't about knowing their options. Just as a hypothetical to reinforce what I meant... on my budget, I have the option to buy any car under $30,000 today. Until I actually need a new car, though, I'm not about to go on test drives and get quotes from dealers. The first part represents the options they know they have. The second part represents exploring those options.

LeafShark · Jun 13, 2015

Tawnos said:
It isn't about knowing their options. Just as a hypothetical to reinforce what I meant... on my budget, I have the option to buy any car under $30,000 today. Until I actually need a new car, though, I'm not about to go on test drives and get quotes from dealers. The first part represents the options they know they have. The second part represents exploring those options.

There is still the valid possibility that the Coyotes move downtown. The city of Glendale may be broke, but the amount needed to keep the Coyotes in Phoenix is a rounding error. There just needs to be the political will behind it. Is there any law which prevents Phoenix specifically from subsidizing a sports team?

Tawnos · Jun 13, 2015

LeafShark said:
There is still the valid possibility that the Coyotes move downtown. The city of Glendale may be broke, but the amount needed to keep the Coyotes in Phoenix is a rounding error. There just needs to be the political will behind it. Is there any law which prevents Phoenix specifically from subsidizing a sports team?

Don't know about the law, but that's exactly what I mean by exploring options. There are any number of them ranging from successfully negotiating a settlement with Glendale to outright relocation out of the Phoenix area. The real question is whether or not there remains any real interest in negotiating with Glendale or the parties are already resolved to move on.

The cards are played close to the chest at this point in the game, as Westhead noted in his column about the restraining order.

When the Atlanta Thrashers moved to Winnipeg in 2011, for instance, the NHL said publicly it was committed to the Atlanta market until the last possible moment before the teamâ€™s sale and relocation were announced.

As much as we understand about the specifics of the situation, we really have little idea of the truth behind the scenes.

RandR · Jun 13, 2015

David Shoalts' has written in the Globe & Mail about the ongoing Coyotes saga for at least a few years. His take on this week's events came out tonight...

Glendale’s city council hands Coyotes’ owners a way out and potential profits

Much of the article is speculation, but the following quote does include a nice tidbit of information:

...according to an NHL governor who requested not to be identified because he is not allowed to discuss league business publicly, Glendale council burned a most important bridge.

No one, the governor said, worked harder than Bettman to keep the Coyotes in Glendale for the past decade. This may have had more to do with NHL broadcast and marketing contracts keeping a major television market such as Phoenix in the fold than love for Glendale, but Bettman fought hard. Now, given his remarks following the council decision, the commissioner is most unhappy with the city. Maybe unhappy enough to let Barroway and LeBlanc hit the jackpot by selling or moving the team.

Brodie · Jun 13, 2015

the Coyotes aren't any more viable downtown than they are in Glendale. Stop drinking the Kool Aid. It's a pipe dream, the best one the fans in Phoenix have to cling to right now but a pipe dream all the same

Tawnos · Jun 13, 2015

Brodie said:
the Coyotes aren't any more viable downtown than they are in Glendale. Stop drinking the Kool Aid. It's a pipe dream, the best one the fans in Phoenix have to cling to right now but a pipe dream all the same

I'm not sure immediate viability is the sole issue there.

LadyStanley · Jun 13, 2015

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/...a-coyotes-head-to-court-to-stop-glendale.html

PBJ on suit

The team is asking for restraining order and expedited hearings on the fight. They also filed legal paperwork arguing the battle should not go to compulsory arbitration and that the city action is severe disruption to the team’s operations. A Superior Court judge granted a temporary restraining order and set the court date.

Ah the legal wranglings.

Brodie · Jun 13, 2015

Tawnos said:
I'm not sure immediate viability is the sole issue there.

if so, it's just a stopgap for a lame duck season. Not really an option worth exploring beyond making sure it exists

Coyotedelmar · Jun 13, 2015

wellsZe said:
I'm not from AZ, so please help me out and I know this isn't the NHL, but

IF the coyotes do get kicked out, could they even have this tournament? Is there any other place they could play for NCAA hockey? If the the yotes get booted, will GRA get rid of hockey arena equipment and no more ICE? Does ASU have a regular hockey rink they'll use for their future home games?

Thanks

From the other thread. ASU doesn't currently have a suitable rink for home games. They play at a skating rink right now, but doubt it'd go well for recruiting to play games at the same play you pay $10-20 to skate around the ice for a few hours (guessing on the costs). Not helped the location is pretty nondescript from what I remember.

Talks ASU wants to get an arena built now that the team is D1. Imagine money will be the issue unless they get someone to chip in. IIRC Tempe had no interest in help ASU with renovating Sun Devil (or building a new stadium) and thus think they won't help with an arena either. Seems hard to say ASU deciding to spend 200+ mil on a new arena with 200+ mill already going to Sun Devil Stadium renovations.

Haven't heard anything about possibly renovating Well Fargo Arena, guess the basketball team wants them too and might be cheaper to get a rink up that way then a whole new arena? Not sure how that'd go/work.

But yeah, as far as I'm aware if the ice equipment was sold from GRA, ASU would pretty much have nowhere (decent) to play.

LeafShark · Jun 13, 2015

Tawnos said:
I'm not sure immediate viability is the sole issue there.

The team still has 2 weeks to a month to relocate, and should use this time to consider it. You risk losing 30 million per season if you stay, even for just 1 more year. You risk losing even more if you lose the legal battle.

Tom ServoMST3K · Jun 13, 2015

kdb209 said:
This thread is dedicated to the Best First Post Ever:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=103622597&postcount=670

Many thanks to Dr Lawyer Zachary Smith.

And a new palette of insults to apply to the Coyotes ownership, the City of Glendale, the NHL, and Gary Bettman:

Dr. Smith's Insults

<placeholder for the reading of the book of threads>

We now read from the book of Balsillie, Chapter 2, Verse 5,

And lo, the Bettman said, "nay shall you own a team in Hamilton, and nay you shall send a team to the Quebec. The Desert is the place for hockey, forsoth it has been told, the Council of Glendale has procreed it, and the court of Bankruptcy will force thy hand. Also may your other ventures proceed into nothingness! The Blackberry will fall from the bush, and land on the cold hard ground"

And so the Bettman said, it was done. But only after a fortnight of waiting. No more, no less. (Actually it was more)

-Amen. Praise be the cupcakes.

cup4blues · Jun 13, 2015

So how does the Coyotes filing a restraining order help them stay in Glendale next season?

Jumptheshark · Jun 13, 2015

cup4blues said:
So how does the Coyotes filing a restraining order help them stay in Glendale next season?

easy--lawyers told them to do it

If what takes places is what is be talked about in that other thread --the owners have to prove they did everything the could to stay in the arena--the moment the team thinks about leaving the city will sue to get every sent they gave both the nhl and the team over the last 20 year or what ever. By doing everyting they can to stay in that arena they lesson the chance of the city demanding to get paid back--IMO

Tom ServoMST3K · Jun 13, 2015

cup4blues said:
So how does the Coyotes filing a restraining order help them stay in Glendale next season?

It prevents Glendale from breaking the lease (for now)

Of note, I read a tweet that Glendale was in favour of the Restraining order so the two parties could negotiate.

Hawker14 · Jun 13, 2015

A couple thoughts regarding two issues that have been posted a bit lately... 1) The possibility of the club moving to downtown Phoenix and 2) The Canadians selling majority control to Barroway for tax reasons.

1 - They lost massive amounts of money in the first place when they were downtown before moving to Glendale, and this club has virtually zero local broadcast revenues ... how would they survive, even in the short term, as renters again ?

2 - What tax reasons ? There's no income to pay tax on.

RandR said:
David Shoalts' has written in the Globe & Mail about the ongoing Coyotes saga for at least a few years. His take on this week's events came out tonight...

Yes !! Shoaltsie is back ... I missed those beautiful Hawaiian shirts ... now if only Richard Rodier and the Ice Clowns would weigh in (although Leblanc has definitely stepped up for the group) ... and has anyone ever found Jamison's body ? So exciting ! Thanks Glendale.

BattleBorn · Jun 13, 2015

Hawker14 said:
2 - What tax reasons ? There's no income to pay tax on.

Capital Gains?

Hawker14 · Jun 13, 2015

BattleBorn said:
Capital Gains?

These are taxed the same for Canadians whether a Canadian or U.S. business holding.

Phoenix CII: Oh, the pain the pain

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