Phoenix CII: Oh, the pain the pain

[wunderpanda]

Why would the team be opposed to arbitration? Wouldn't that be the best way to get a fair deal for all parties?

 

[danishh]

I feel this must be stated - glendale isnt trying to kick the coyotes out of GRA and glendale. Glendale is simply trying to terminate the current AMF/lease agreement, and replace it with a less expensive one.

Talk about the coyotes having 'no place to play' is wrong. The problem is that they have no place to play that pays them 15M to manage the arena.

 

[objectiveposter]

A couple thoughts regarding two issues that have been posted a bit lately... 1) The possibility of the club moving to downtown Phoenix and 2) The Canadians selling majority control to Barroway for tax reasons.

1 - They lost massive amounts of money in the first place when they were downtown before moving to Glendale, and this club has virtually zero local broadcast revenues ... how would they survive, even in the short term, as renters again ?

2 - What tax reasons ? There's no income to pay tax on.




Yes !! Shoaltsie is back ... I missed those beautiful Hawaiian shirts ... now if only Richard Rodier and the Ice Clowns would weigh in (although Leblanc has definitely stepped up for the group) ... and has anyone ever found Jamison's body ? So exciting ! Thanks Glendale.

the hockey team might be losing money but the arena management side is a separate entity and profitable.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Also This is the official thread video:

 

[awfulwaffle]

From the other thread. ASU doesn't currently have a suitable rink for home games. They play at a skating rink right now, but doubt it'd go well for recruiting to play games at the same play you pay $10-20 to skate around the ice for a few hours (guessing on the costs). Not helped the location is pretty nondescript from what I remember.

Talks ASU wants to get an arena built now that the team is D1. Imagine money will be the issue unless they get someone to chip in. IIRC Tempe had no interest in help ASU with renovating Sun Devil (or building a new stadium) and thus think they won't help with an arena either. Seems hard to say ASU deciding to spend 200+ mil on a new arena with 200+ mill already going to Sun Devil Stadium renovations.

Haven't heard anything about possibly renovating Well Fargo Arena, guess the basketball team wants them too and might be cheaper to get a rink up that way then a whole new arena? Not sure how that'd go/work.

But yeah, as far as I'm aware if the ice equipment was sold from GRA, ASU would pretty much have nowhere (decent) to play.

Wells Fargo is built for basketball no? They would have to do what US Airways did. US Airways actually renovated the arena with moving chairs and such so hockey could play. A hockey rink couldn't fit in wells fargo currently I imagine, and some construction/changes would have to be made for that to happen. ASU is going to be playing a US Airways though aren't they once they hit D1? I believe it's split games between GRA and US Airways. Why wouldn't US Airways welcome the idea of hosting this tournament if Glendale doesn't want the tournament to happen? Not a big deal if you ask me. I can't imagine Sarver, one of my least favorite owners, saying no to a college hockey tournament.

 

[objectiveposter]

Why would the team be opposed to arbitration? Wouldn't that be the best way to get a fair deal for all parties?

arbitration would significantly lower the arena management fee....the coyotes need the 15 million overpayment to help cover the losses of the hockey team...so there is no way in hell they would ever agree to arbitration

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

arbitration would significantly lower the arena management fee....the coyotes need the 15 million overpayment to help cover the losses of the hockey team...so there is no way in hell they would ever agree to arbitration

Maybe they only need 10 mill?

I thought they were close to breaking even?

 

[BattleBorn]

These are taxed the same for Canadians whether a Canadian or U.S. business holding.

Then I don't know.

I do know that sometimes people like to keep small percentages of things they sell to avoid capital gains taxes, (Tribune Co with the Chicago Cubs, for example,) is that a privilege that still exists? If it does is it only for 'Mericans?

 

[BeardedCanuck]

Why would the team be opposed to arbitration? Wouldn't that be the best way to get a fair deal for all parties?

The Coyotes can't survive on a fair deal they can barely survive on getting an insane arena management fee. They might be able to squeak by on a couple less million but that's still no where close to a fair deal.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Looking back on this, there are so many twists and turns on the macro side, never mind the micro.

Its almost unbelievable just stating what happened, then you get deep into the individual events and realize how crazy this situation really is.

 

[awfulwaffle]

A couple thoughts regarding two issues that have been posted a bit lately... 1) The possibility of the club moving to downtown Phoenix and 2) The Canadians selling majority control to Barroway for tax reasons.

1 - They lost massive amounts of money in the first place when they were downtown before moving to Glendale, and this club has virtually zero local broadcast revenues ... how would they survive, even in the short term, as renters again ?

2 - What tax reasons ? There's no income to pay tax on.

I'll comment on #1.

The Coyotes weren't treated very well when they played downtown. They were second fiddle, and their deal sucked.

If they moved to downtown Phoenix, it would be because Phoenix would be willing to construct a new arena with the Suns and Coyotes as the main tenants. Suns owner Robert Sarver is currently also in charge of managing the arena with his group.

With a new arena, comes a new lease. We would all hope that the Coyotes get a better deal in regards to what they get from being apart of that new venue.

Times have also changed. The light rail now stops right in front of downtown Phoenix where the Dbacks and Suns play. I live right on the light rail. I can tell you, those trains are packed with fans to baseball games or basketball games, or arena football games. When the games are over it's shoulder to shoulder with people going back towards their cars at a park and ride or their residency.

I-10 is literally a parking lot from basically 4pm on heading west. Traffic is rediculously bad, and on top of that, if you do go to a game in Glendale, let's say it starts at 7pm. Game ends around 9pm, you probably won't get home until about 10:30pm. I wake up at 5:30am for work each day, I'm not going to regularly go out to westgate for a hockey game on a routine basis when work(and what pays my bills) comes first.

Call us bad fans if you want, but that's just the reality of it. Not to mention the crap show that we have had to endure, and the NHL just owning the team and not caring about marketing them, or putting them in the press(and our local press not giving a **** either until now). There's no wonder why hockey hasn't picked up more than it has in the Valley area.

Everyone wants to say we are a bad hockey market, it's just the fact that there was no support for hockey from anyone in a position to promote it. It was a sweet novelty item at first, but the arena setup and the deal the Coyotes had to start with was terrible.

If the Coyotes had a fresh start in Phoenix, with a reasonable lease deal along side the Suns/Mercury/Rattlers, downtown Phoenix is one of the best options they have. Glendale is a neverending journey to failure, and always will be.

 

[LadyStanley]

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl...ge-issues-restraining-order-1.3112146?cmp=rss

AP story

The order does not address whether the city must make the next payment due to IceArizona, the Coyotes' owner, for operating the arena.
...
Glendale city officials will meet Tuesday in a closed-door executive session. Glendale Mayor Jerry Weiers expressed optimism about a possible compromise in a statement Friday.

"An opportunity for the two of us to discuss the issues has presented itself, and I am optimistic that with continued dialogue we can come to an agreement that satisfies both parties," Weiers said.

LeBlanc said the only way to move forward would be for the city to "go back into session and revoke what they enacted two days ago and move forward as the partnership that was negotiated in good faith less than two years ago."

Sounds like the next time there may be news will be Tuesday evening.

 

[RandR]

A couple thoughts regarding two issues that have been posted a bit lately... 1) The possibility of the club moving to downtown Phoenix and 2) The Canadians selling majority control to Barroway for tax reasons.

1 - They lost massive amounts of money in the first place when they were downtown before moving to Glendale, and this club has virtually zero local broadcast revenues ... how would they survive, even in the short term, as renters again ?

2 - What tax reasons ? There's no income to pay tax on.




Yes !! Shoaltsie is back ... I missed those beautiful Hawaiian shirts ... now if only Richard Rodier and the Ice Clowns would weigh in (although Leblanc has definitely stepped up for the group) ... and has anyone ever found Jamison's body ? So exciting ! Thanks Glendale.

Regarding 2 ... You might remember that Shoalts also wrote about the tax implication that Ice Edge (or other Canadian NHL owners like Melnyk in Ottawa) would have incurred if they used the NHL's low-interest credit facility. By Barroway becoming 51% owner of the Coyotes, the Coyotes ownership became primarily owned by an American instead of Canadians. I am not a tax lawyer, but I understand that that served to avoid Revenue Canada taxing Ice Edge (now Ice Arizona) for the financial benefit derived from borrowing from the NHL at below market rates.

Of course now there is increased reason to doubt whether Barroway really did become majority owner of the Coyotes or if it was at least partly a smoke screen to allow Ice Arizona to avoid a multi-million dollar tax bill.

 

[Hawker14]

Call us bad fans if you want

Absolutely not. I would suggest that there is vast respect for every individual fan of the Coyotes.

The issue is that the team hasn't been financially viable for previous owners, and is a money loser for the current owners. Factor in the $20m that a city of 250,000 has to pay annually to cover debt costs, and net "arena management fees" for a team that is still bleeding cash, and that's a tough business case to make.

 

[crobro]

Regarding 2 ... You might remember that Shoalts also wrote about the tax implication that Ice Edge (or other Canadian NHL owners like Melnyk in Ottawa) would have incurred if they used the NHL's low-interest credit facility. By Barroway becoming 51% owner of the Coyotes, the Coyotes ownership became primarily owned by an American instead of Canadians. I am not a tax lawyer, but I understand that that served to avoid Revenue Canada taxing Ice Edge (now Ice Arizona) for the financial benefit derived from borrowing from the NHL at below market rates.

Of course now there is increased reason to doubt whether Barroway really did become majority owner of the Coyotes or if it was at least partly a smoke screen to allow Ice Arizona to avoid a multi-million dollar tax bill.

You might be on to something .

 

[RogerRoger]

Was Tindall involved in the Jamison contract?

 

[TheLegend]

I'm pretty sure that the NHL and IA already know their options, and none of them are pretty.

The CoG's timing was diabolical, but shows for about the first time that they have a crew in place that knows how to negotiate and play hardball. I think that this whole episode has made it clear that Glendale is not going to be the long-term home of the Coyotes. Neither the CoG nor IA can afford it. This maneuver by Glendale gets them better terms for the next year or two until the Coyotes relocate, and the timing will make it very difficult for the NHL to put the Coyotes anywhere else for next year, buying Glendale time to put a more reasonable arena management agreement in place for the following year.

It's perhaps important to remember that this strategy of the CoG isn't being cooked up and executed by the mayor and his part-time council members. This is being planned and executed by city administration and Glendale's legal team. I'm pretty sure they know exactly what Tindall and Frisoni contributed to the arena management agreement.

Yeah.... they hard-balled themselves right off the cliff.

In one swift swoop they un-did every single bit of progress the franchise had made since 2009 when Moyes sucked what he could out of the franchise can and tried to make a quick buck on the deposit.

I'm really finding it amusing that people who spent months here referring to them as "Gongdale", or a bunch of backwoods yahoos (along with a few other snappy terms), suddenly feel they're such a righteous bunch.

 

[LadyStanley]

Was Tindall involved in the Jamison contract?

Apparently he did have a "significant involvement" in the negotiations with the Jamison contingent on AMF.

(And the basic contract was the same used for the IA AMF -- but he was NOT involved in the negotiations with IA.)

 

[Hawker14]

Yeah.... they hard-balled themselves right off the cliff.

In one swift swoop they un-did every single bit of progress the franchise had made since 2009 when Moyes sucked what he could out of the franchise can and tried to make a quick buck on the deposit.

I'm really finding it amusing that people who spent months here referring to them as "Gongdale", or a bunch of backwoods yahoos (along with a few other snappy terms), suddenly feel they're such a righteous bunch.

Except those backwoods yahoos are either kicked out of office, working for the Coyotes, working in Ferguson, MO as the 4th city manager in 4 months, or running a city of 10,000 after being in charge of one 25 times larger.

Yeah, this group of Weiers and Hugh are a righteous bunch. They voted against this agreement two years ago. Now they have a couple like-minded colleagues onside.

It's still Gongdale. Except the side with that view has changed.

 

[BattleBorn]

Yeah.... they hard-balled themselves right off the cliff.

In one swift swoop they un-did every single bit of progress the franchise had made since 2009 when Moyes sucked what he could out of the franchise can and tried to make a quick buck on the deposit.

I'm really finding it amusing that people who spent months here referring to them as "Gongdale", or a bunch of backwoods yahoos (along with a few other snappy terms), suddenly feel they're such a righteous bunch.

I don't really think it's their concern what progress has been made in the team. Their concern is their citizens and their local businesses. If the benefits to the city outweigh the costs associated with the team, they should let it continue. It appears they don't think that's the case.

Short of the team dragging people into Glendale, Westgate, and the arena (which was built to support Glendale and Westgate) I can't see why they would care in the slightest about the team or their progress.

 

[knorthern knight]

Any new deal would require IA to give up on their end, and they've already hit the outclause and would hit any negotiated outclauses. Neither party can afford to lose more money, and frankly the only stability that existed was the contract that existed in the first place. Unless the city completely rescinds their action and declares the original contract valid once more, I don't see how the two sides can come together. The city of Glendale cannot afford the National Hockey League, and the National Hockey League cannot afford them. The only way the team stays is if the City of Phoenix throws the team some millions to stay in the old barn. In any event, something must happen in 2 weeks.

An outside-the-box idea... howsabout Scottsdale, Cave Creek, North Phoenix, City of Phoenix, etc, etc get together to throw in $9 million towards the GRA AMF. The COG cuts their contribution down to $6 million, and breaks even. The Coyotes get the money they can't live without.

 

[Evil Doctor]

David Shoalts' has written in the Globe & Mail about the ongoing Coyotes saga for at least a few years. His take on this week's events came out tonight...

Glendale’s city council hands Coyotes’ owners a way out and potential profits

Much of the article is speculation, but the following quote does include a nice tidbit of information:

Oh man, this seems like the entire philosophy of the NHL...

It will never enter their little minds that perhaps that it's they themselves that burned the bridge with Glendale...

 

[BinCookin]

An outside-the-box idea... howsabout Scottsdale, Cave Creek, North Phoenix, City of Phoenix, etc, etc get together to throw in $9 million towards the GRA AMF. The COG cuts their contribution down to $6 million, and breaks even. The Coyotes get the money they can't live without.

Logically a good plan. Share the pain to all the people that will see the team.

But this entire endeavor... its just so ugly. What if that tax payers of quebec had to buy the team outright? What city services are ok to be cut to make an NHL hockey team come back?

The answer is... NONE, because the city shouldnt have to buy the team.
"Its a business, not a charity"

 

[Evil Doctor]

Regarding 2 ... You might remember that Shoalts also wrote about the tax implication that Ice Edge (or other Canadian NHL owners like Melnyk in Ottawa) would have incurred if they used the NHL's low-interest credit facility. By Barroway becoming 51% owner of the Coyotes, the Coyotes ownership became primarily owned by an American instead of Canadians. I am not a tax lawyer, but I understand that that served to avoid Revenue Canada taxing Ice Edge (now Ice Arizona) for the financial benefit derived from borrowing from the NHL at below market rates.

Of course now there is increased reason to doubt whether Barroway really did become majority owner of the Coyotes or if it was at least partly a smoke screen to allow Ice Arizona to avoid a multi-million dollar tax bill.

You do realize that you are saying that may well have just committed tax fraud?

 

[93LEAFS]

Logically a good plan. Share the pain to all the people that will see the team.

But this entire endeavor... its just so ugly. What if that tax payers of quebec had to buy the team outright? What city services are ok to be cut to make an NHL hockey team come back?

The answer is... NONE, because the city shouldnt have to buy the team.
"Its a business, not a charity"

Why should other cities bail out Glendale's mess??? They got themselves into this by trying to develop their own entertainment district to compete and take business away from other municipalities. While people are willing to drive to the boonies 8 times a year in droves for the NFL, it does not seem to work with the NHL, the arena location would also give the Diamondbacks and Suns trouble.