Phoenix CI: TeA.R.S. for FeA.R.S.

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Acesolid

The Illusive Bettman
Sep 21, 2010
2,538
323
Québec
Blowback? the NHL can pay for those tickets. and Balance means nothing in a situation like this. It's have a team or retract a team for a year. which means get money for your money pool from them or don't. I'm guessing they want the money.

Yes, an NHL team folding (even for a year) would be a disaster for team valuations.

It might not be a question of choice! But of need, if the Coyotes can't get an injuction or a temporary arena to play in.

I think (and that's purely a guess), that if the Ice guys can't get an injunction or an arena to play in somewhere in Arizona VERY VERY SOON, the NHL will force a sale and relocation. Because can Bettman really afford to have a team not play? (even for a single season?)

I dont think so!
 

GordonGraham

Registered User
Sep 12, 2009
3,870
1,267
I imagine Bettman will get some blowback from the owners of the Western teams who will have to travel to Quebec two or three times.

I don't think they can go to a 17/13 east/west split.


Its not ideal but easily fixable, lets say the kings had an east coast trip playing Tor, Ottawa and mtl you change it to a trip playing Quebec, tor, ottawa, mtl and quebec again 2 games on the same trip.

You can do it again when they play vs NYI, NYR, NJ .... its not perfect but it could be done
 

madhi19

Just the tip!
Jun 2, 2012
4,396
252
Cold and Dark place!
twitter.com
Its not ideal but easily fixable, lets say the kings had an east coast trip playing Tor, Ottawa and mtl you change it to a trip playing Quebec, tor, ottawa, mtl and quebec again 2 games on the same trip.

You can do it again when they play vs NYI, NYR, NJ .... its not perfect but it could be done
The schedule is going to be weird, but it for a year at most two.
 

SunDancer

Registered User
Jan 4, 2015
512
46
on the Range
They will argue they are merely suing to enforce the terms of the lease and the out clause is one of the terms. They will also claim they never intended to exercise the out clause until this fight erupted.

Now where in the heck is Mr. Barroway?

Barroway could be a bit of a wild card in all of this. There are a few points that arouse some suspicion regarding his intentions with the team.

- First of all, he was suing the NHL before he became involved in the Coyotes.
- Nobody is quite sure if he requested to buy into the team or if he was invited to do so (while conveniently dropping his lawsuit at the same time).
- The announcement of his ownership was delayed for several months because it was rumored he was only interested in flipping the franchise.
- Until this week he was unwilling to meet with city officials.
- He was notably absent before and after yesterday's vote and has been virtually invisible since Day 1.

Not sure what cards he's holding.
 

IceAce

Strait Trippin'
Jun 9, 2010
5,166
10
Philadelphia
Well, Anthony LeBlanc likes business in the real world. So how does that scenario play out?

"Hello, Mr. Sarver, it's me Tony. No, Tony from the Coyotes, the CEO. The Coyotes are a hockey team, we've actually been playing over in Glendale. That's what I wanted to talk to you about. We hit a bit of a snag. Does your building have an ice plant? We would like to play our games there if it does!

What? You want us to pay you rent and you want portions of all of our revenue streams? Sir, we already operate at a significant loss, we couldn't possible build a business around that. I was thinking that maybe you'd pay us $15MM or so to bring our games to the arena. Mr. Sarver? Hello? Hello?"

That's just a bit dismissive, no? The Coyotes are valuable to the Suns in that they embolden their plea for a new arena deal. The two teams playing at AWA together would only work in the short term. Suns would get their new arena, and the Yotes get some form of cost certainty to go along with being much closer to their core fanbase.

Not to put this in overly simplistic terms, but half of something is better than all of nothing.
 

IceAce

Strait Trippin'
Jun 9, 2010
5,166
10
Philadelphia
Barroway could be a bit of a wild card in all of this. There are a few points that arouse some suspicion regarding his intentions with the team.

- First of all, he was suing the NHL before he became involved in the Coyotes.
- Nobody is quite sure if he requested to buy into the team or if he was invited to do so (while conveniently dropping his lawsuit at the same time).
- The announcement of his ownership was delayed for several months because it was rumored he was only interested in flipping the franchise.
- Until this week he was unwilling to meet with city officials.
- He was notably absent before and after yesterday's vote and has been virtually invisible since Day 1.

Not sure what cards he's holding.

Barroway sued Charles Wang, not the NHL.

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/fb...cumentId=bZu8S8BukzySBMqj0vyrXA==&system=prod
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,219
Oh, I would imagine that the criticism from the Board is primarily directed at LeBlanc and the Ice Idiots.

Well, this all came right outta left field. Who knew the COG even had a spine? So why would they be upset or angered with IA CF? Prolly had a bronze bust of Anthony LeBlanc commissioned and placed in the Boardroom for committing one of the greatest extortion capers of all-time. Took it to an all new level, precedent. Raised the bar considerably ha?.. and really in the history of any sport. Eventual induction into the HHOF all but guaranteed I should think...

nice avy btw. ;)
 

sandysan

Registered User
Dec 7, 2011
24,834
6,388
That's just a bit dismissive, no? The Coyotes are valuable to the Suns in that they embolden their plea for a new arena deal. The two teams playing at AWA together would only work in the short term. Suns would get their new arena, and the Yotes get some form of cost certainty to go along with being much closer to their core fanbase.

Not to put this in overly simplistic terms, but half of something is better than all of nothing.
I really, really hate the notion of an NHL team, AGAIN, being used as nothing more than a bowl to throw the arena keys into as the market uses the team to get the real apple of their eye. Because you can't unbuild an arena, as as soon as the keys are handed over, what sustained value foes the nhl team have?

If they play ( under injunction) a lame duck season in Glendale next season, can I withstand those losses? 25 million gate revenue will be impossible and it will look like jerry Lawler vs Terry funk 41 times a year.
 

CGG

Registered User
Jan 6, 2005
4,136
55
416
Well, this all came right outta left field. Who knew the COG even had a spine? So why would they be upset or angered with IA CF? Probably had a bronze bust of Anthony LeBlanc commissioned and placed in the Boardroom for committing one of the greatest extortion capers of all-time... in the history of any sport.... nice avy btw. ;)

They wouldn't be in this mess if Tony didn't choose to hire ex-city attorney Craig Tindall (and possibly others out of the town office). It's hilarious that everyone is angry at the COG for trying to stop the bleeding. It is uniquely and entirely the IA Boys' fault that this is happening. They could have picked literally any other lawyer to add to their staff, but thought they were being brilliant by hiring Tindall, with close ties to the city and a whole wealth of insider information.

I'd also be mad at the NHL for letting this happen - even if the IA Boys are too dumb to know about this statute, someone from the league office might have wanted to voice their opinion when the Coyotes hired Tindall. We all know it was the NHL that was negotiating that deal, the IA Boys were just along for the ride.

On a different note, can the team actually sue for $200 million? If they were serious about staying in Arizona wouldn't they sue for specific performance to get the lease reinstated and ensure they have a place to play?
 

Vinc360

Registered User
Apr 3, 2008
1,746
121
This feels like an old TV show coming back for one last season after a two-year hiatus. I'm back in!

*Grabs popcorn*
 

GuelphStormer

Registered User
Mar 20, 2012
3,811
499
Guelph, ON
wow. what a night. thanks to everyone who posted and especially to those who dug thru the various links and paperwork to continue to make this place the most informed gathering anywhere on this subject.

the timing of this seems to have been intentionally chosen by Glendale to maximize impact (during the SCF games), while still affording (barely) enough time to allow relocation this year. the Mayor et al. appear to have successfully delivered the message that IA continued to make new demands, refused to honour its past and present financial and administrative obligations, and was simply unwilling to sit down and work things out.

i do not think leblanc could have come off looking any worse than he did last night - an arrogant and entitled bully. our own HFBoard fact-checkers debunked much of what he claimed. (the World Juniors was fantasy gold)

i do not think Council could have come off looking much better than they did last night - for the most part, they seemed cool, steadfast and confident. im still not sure what to make of Sherwood's absence.

the fans, well, they just looked foolish.

the evidence revealed thus far sure seems to suggest that Glendale has a strong legal case to cancel the contract. the next few weeks will be interesting.

whatever happens, nothing should surprise any of us.

forget America's Got Talent, this is now the Best New Summer Series, by far.
 

GordonGraham

Registered User
Sep 12, 2009
3,870
1,267
As expected:

Rick Westhead ‏@rwesthead
Glendale vice mayor Ian Hugh: Coyotes to file injunction and for temporary restraining order against city of Glendale

Isnt this a bit premature? yes they voted to cancel the agreement but they havent done it yet.
 

CasualFan

Tortious Beadicus
Nov 27, 2009
3,215
0
Bay Area, CA
That's just a bit dismissive, no? The Coyotes are valuable to the Suns in that they embolden their plea for a new arena deal. The two teams playing at AWA together would only work in the short term. Suns would get their new arena, and the Yotes get some form of cost certainty to go along with being much closer to their core fanbase.

Not to put this in overly simplistic terms, but half of something is better than all of nothing.

Very dismissive. Whether combining with the Coyotes emboldens a plea or not is subjective. But reasonable people can disagree on these types of things. I get what you're saying from the Coyotes perspective but that's probably only half the story

Sarver sharing the building is not well aligned with most NBA arena pursuits. Both teams are going to want the bulk of the arena revenues while a public (or tribal) "partner" picks up most of the expenses. In overly simplistic terms, that's pretty much how pro sports stadium and arena plans work. So, it's almost certain that the teams will have competing interests. The Suns likely do not need the NHL component to achieve their objectives.
 

Nordskull

WAITING FOR NORDS
Sep 29, 2011
2,268
44
Saguenay, Qc
Its not ideal but easily fixable, lets say the kings had an east coast trip playing Tor, Ottawa and mtl you change it to a trip playing Quebec, tor, ottawa, mtl and quebec again 2 games on the same trip.

You can do it again when they play vs NYI, NYR, NJ .... its not perfect but it could be done

Still, Its kind of a headache, true puzzle.
 

sandysan

Registered User
Dec 7, 2011
24,834
6,388
Isnt this a bit premature? yes they voted to cancel the agreement but they havent done it yet.
Isn't it just a matter of time? With a 5-2 vote doesn't the city attorney HAVE to move on it?

I figure a couple of days to see if IA blinks on the proposed AMF renegotiation. If they stick to their guns, my guess is that the city moves forward and the suits and counter suits begin.
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
Nov 26, 2004
36,952
220
϶(°o°)ϵ
Can the Coyotes make their loan payments without the money from COG? And where are they getting the money to afford to sue Glendale? The NHL?

I think they need that money to make their LOC work. I have a feeling the banks that back the NHL's LOC are watching closely. They know the league is good for the money, so they're protected, but the teams all have to have valuations that maybe support the level of the LOC (which I think is capped at $120 MM per team).

There is a brain dead simple way to solve this problem.

Get IA to go to the CoG and agree to cut the AMF by half. Do that and the CoG would most likely agree, and everyone will be happy.

But it will never happen. Why you ask? Because, the very fact that IA refuses to re-negotiate the agreement means that every dime of the $15MM is required. IA needs the $15MM and most likely even more if they could get it. This team is not even close to being financially viable without a subsidy.

$25MM in ticket revenue last season when the league average is $45MM....

I tend to agree, in general, but I think they must have banked on COG not having the guts, or votes, to do it. They're still better off getting $8MM vs $0, though managing to cut the cost of their debt in half via the LOC was going to REALLY help, so why would they consider renegotiating when they had such a great deal?

In fact, they may be better off with the city terminating the contract. If they sat down to renegotiate, what else would the city want? They'd probably want that out-clause removed, put in some performance metrics, and reduce the payment. Meanwhile, with the agreement still in force (had it gone that way), they would have no way of terminating it from the team's side.

I don't understand why Ice Age is so determined to stay in Glendale. Aren't they losing money hand over fist even with the massive subsidy? So everyone is losing money on this deal - what incentive do any of them have to stay in Glendale?

We've been asking that question for a long time.

I just want to point out that as discussed in the Westhead thread, the AMF and IA´s financing costs were likely excluded from the year 1 loss figure that has been thrown around for the team.

You are right that IA has no incentive to renegotiate out of a perfect agreement but that is not their actual strategic choice here so that benchmark is irrelevant. The question yesterday (when they refused to negotiate) was whether renegotiation was preferable to vote+lawsuit+possible relocation, taking into account the possibility that the city wouldn't carry through with the threat. The choice is similar today but now the path is clearer, although the big unknown is the city's actual 38-511 evidence, which despite some forumers´ claims of "covering" this story for years, we simply do not know about. So far the only real piece of incriminating evidence is the Tindall email from which we know that the IA lease is at least in part a C&P of the Jamison lease, and that he provided some advice. Whether that's enough to show ´significant involvement' is unaffected by how tough Nick Woods and Tony the Tiger look or by how many s's Michael Bailey adds to "there are ex-employeessssss involved".


I can't imagine COG going this route unless they had a lot of evidence, and well, they have all the former employees files and emails, etc. So if anyone could get that evidence, it's Glendale.
 

metalfoot

Karlsson!
Dec 21, 2007
1,575
2
Manitoba, Canada
Not to be a jerk, but kdb's incredible index post is currently missing Phoenix C and the Barroway and Westhead posts which we were using before the Megathreads came back from the dead.

Also, I don't understand the $200M lawsuit; seems to me that the Arizona law which Glendale is seeking to use to kill the contract also provides that there can be no countersuits filed against the city. Is this just sabre-rattling or what?
 
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