Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XV - SITREP: SNAFU

[Wetcoaster]

Please explain the proximity between the Rangers, Islanders, and Devils please. Thanks in advance.

Territorial Rights fees paid?

 

[kdb209]

Please explain the proximity between the Rangers, Islanders, and Devils please. Thanks in advance.

The Rangers consented to the Isles and both consented to the Devils after being paid territorial rights fees.

4.3 Territorial Rights of Members. Each member shall have exclusive control of the playing of hockey games within its home territory. ... No other member of the League shall be permitted to play games (except regularly scheduled games with the home club) in the home territory of a member without the latter member's consent.

 

[bleeney]

I was under the impression that Balsillie would be paying rent to Hamilton for the Copps Coliseum. I thought I also read that Balsillie was contributing money to the upgrade costs.

Am I mistaken?

No, you are correct.

He's paying $25M toward the upgrade, and $2M/year on the lease. So Hamilton is on the hook for about $95M.

Spread over the 20 year lease, it amounts to about $5M per year. That's a pretty good investment considering the construction costs (labour and material) will go directly into area the pockets of workers and suppliers. A packed Copps 42 times a year, plus playoffs, will give a huge boost to local restaurants, bars, hotels etc. There will be additional tax revenues. And last but not least, NHL hockey will provide Hamiltonians a sense of prestige and civic pride. It will do wonders for the city and the surrounding area. That's how tax dollars should be spent.

And I know that this means nothing to the self-serving stuffed shirts running the league, but it will give the millions of rabid, hockey loving people in Southern Ontario the chance to actually watch NHL hockey live, in person.

But what does that matter when one of your most influential members has an empty arena he just built in yet another non-hockey market: Kansas City?

Yup. KC was a resounding success first time around, wasn't it? Can anybody say revenue sharing?

 

[TaketheCannoli]

That is not correct.

Article 4.1 of the NHL’s constitution states that “each member shall have exclusive territorial rights in the city in it is located and within 50 miles of that city’s corporate limitsâ€.

A team in Hamilton infringes both Buffalo and Toronto's territorial rights.

Additionally, in 4.1 home territories can not overlap. This means at a minimum, teams must be 100 miles from another team's city limits. In the case of the Islanders they paid an infringement fee to the Rangers. The Devils paid the Islanders, the Rangers and the Flyers.

 

[mouser]

Please explain the proximity between the Rangers, Islanders, and Devils please. Thanks in advance.

They have overlapping home territory. However the original territory owners had to be compensated by the new teams to be granted the overlapping territory.

 

[Wetcoaster]

The Rangers consented to the Isles and both consented to the Devils after being paid territorial rights fees.

IIRC the Devils also had to compensate the Flyers at the time of the relocation from Colorado.

 

[kdb209]

IIRC the Devils also had to compensate the Flyers at the time of the relocation from Colorado.

Yes - but that was actually a payment for infringing upon Philadelphia's TV rights. East Rutherford, NJ was outside of the Flyers' Home Territory.

 

[Wetcoaster]

Yes - but that was actually a payment for infringing upon Philadelphia's TV rights. East Rutherford, NJ was outside of the Flyers' Home Territory.

Thanks for the clarification. Advancing senility sometimes affects my recall.

 

[vyktor]

Is MLB better off having the Mets or Royals??

Is the NFL better off having the Giants or Cheifs??

It's quite obvious where the best location for a team would be. In all these situations the big market teams have obviously increased the financial health of the league.

Well the NFL makes a lot of money off of TV contracts, how many New Yorkers would still watch the NFL if they only had the Jets to root for? How many people in Kansas city would watch the NFL instead of College football.


Not so obvious when you look at other cities like Pittsburgh either, A small market, roughly the same population as KC that no-one would think of expanding into if teams weren't already there, yet the Steelers are one of the Premiere NFL franchises, while the Pirates are the laughing stock of MLB.

Is the NFL better off with the Giants or the Steelers.

So again if I'm an NHL owner outside of Buffalo/Toronto, how do the benefits of voting for Balsille and Hamilton and loosing the ability to dictate where teams are based and how they are moved outweigh sticking with my already established partners ,and relocation to KC or Vegas, or even PHX staying put.

 

[New User Name]

So again if I'm an NHL owner outside of Buffalo/Toronto, how do the benefits of voting for Balsille and Hamilton and loosing the ability to dictate where teams are based and how they are moved outweigh sticking with my already established partners ,and relocation to KC or Vegas, or even PHX staying put.

And that is the crux of the matter.
As much as I'd like to see another team in Southern Ontario and I think Jim would be an okay owner, the very fact that a Judge in a bankruptcy court could dictate to the league where a team is relocated is disturbing.

 

[LadyStanley]

Roll call/web sites for Wednesday's 9am (12 noon ET) hearing:

phoenixcoyotes.com - plans to update through the day.

HF BOH mod mouser plans to be at hearing and posting here.

From posts, these guys/gals look like they'll be in court room tomorrow:
http://twitter.com/HKYFN
http://twitter.com/TheYotesDiva
http://twitter.com/brahmresnik

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Roll call/web sites for Wednesday's 9am (12 noon ET) hearing:

phoenixcoyotes.com - plans to update through the day.

HF BOH mod mouser plans to be at hearing and posting here.

From posts, these guys/gals look like they'll be in court room tomorrow:
http://twitter.com/HKYFN
http://twitter.com/TheYotesDiva
http://twitter.com/brahmresnik

Finally, some actual news? I can't bear to read even half of the posts here nowadays.

GHOST

 

[CanadaBacon]

Additionally, in 4.1 home territories can not overlap. This means at a minimum, teams must be 100 miles from another team's city limits. In the case of the Islanders they paid an infringement fee to the Rangers. The Devils paid the Islanders, the Rangers and the Flyers.

This is what i was looking for. Thank you.

 

[bbud]

Finally, some actual news? I can't bear to read even half of the posts here nowadays.

GHOST

I cant wait for some actual battles im hopin judge says ok JB just to watch the fireworks lol

 

[nye]

He'll want to punt, again. Why should he rule on over-ruling the NHL's ownership vote until the auction? Only then, after using JB's bid for maximum effect on other bidders (note the NHL made a bid) is he forced to reflect on whether or not he should accept it.

Only problem, if he does not rule on JB's eligibility, will the NHL not go over his head, seek a stay, and force the issue prior to any auction? Who wants to bid against bogus bidders? Is this EBay?

 

[RR]

He'll want to punt, again. Why should he rule on over-ruling the NHL's ownership vote until the auction? Only then, after using JB's bid for maximum effect on other bidders (note the NHL made a bid) is he forced to reflect on whether or not he should accept it.

Only problem, if he does not rule on JB's eligibility, will the NHL not go over his head, seek a stay, and force the issue prior to any auction? Who wants to bid against bogus bidders? Is this EBay?

I can see a scenario where he rules JB can bid, NHL appeals and auction delayed; he rules JB cannot bid, JB appeals and auction delayed.

 

[Grabovski]

Let's just wait and see what happens. I hope Jim Balsillie and I support him all the way.

Make it Seven!!

 

[MotorMaster]

I can see a scenario where he rules JB can bid, NHL appeals and auction delayed; he rules JB cannot bid, JB appeals and auction delayed.

God forbid this happens I can't handle this dragging out for another damn year.

 

[nye]

I look back at attendance figures re Winnipeg, Quebec, and now Phoenix.

http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/ind..._average_attendance_since_1989_90/118-2008-09

I see no reason to cheer for a move from where the Coyotes are, and the grief that would cause to hockey fans in Arizona.

If you wish to make it seven, make it the right way, and for the right reasons.

Cheers, Coyote fans.

Hello Canada, and hockey fans in the United States and Newfoundland…

 

[bbud]

I can see a scenario where he rules JB can bid, NHL appeals and auction delayed; he rules JB cannot bid, JB appeals and auction delayed.

that i am sure of RR one way or another we are now seeing round 2 opening shots , still hope best for Pho fans and maybe NHL cave in and sell Jb a hamilton expansion and all is good.

 

[LadyStanley]

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/story/2009/09/01/sp-nhl-coyotes-balsillie.html?ref=rss
CBC previews Wednesday hearing.
WRT Balsillie being allowed to bid against NHL's rejection as potential owner (and able to pull anti-trust into the equation)....

To win, Balsillie would have to prove the league's objection to relocating the team to Hamilton is it creates unwanted competition for the Buffalo Sabres and Toronto Maple Leafs.

"A court could conceivably order the NHL to add another team [in Hamilton] or give him the right to buy another team or may just award him money damages," Ross said, noting that such litigation could take up to four years at an estimated cost of $10 million US to Balsillie.

Both legal experts agreed Balsillie burned his bridges with the league when he previously tried — and failed — to buy the Penguins and Nashville Predators so he could move them to southern Ontario.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/nhl/coyotes/2009-09-01-balsillie_hearing_N.htm?csp=34
AP preview

Attorneys for the debtors group that is headed by Moyes filed objections Tuesday arguing that the NHL and Ice Edge bid should be rejected by the judge.

(Balsillie and Bettman apparently will both be in the courtroom)

 

[RR]

that i am sure of RR one way or another we are now seeing round 2 opening shots , still hope best for Pho fans and maybe NHL cave in and sell Jb a hamilton expansion and all is good.

JB and NHL will be in court for years. While that is going on Hamilton will get an expansion team, but its ownership will be headed by Steve Jobs.

 

[LadyStanley]

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/Phoenix/2009/09/01/10710876-sun.html?cid=rsssportsslam! hockey

Sun Media previews hearing.

 

[mouser]

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/story/2009/09/01/sp-nhl-coyotes-balsillie.html?ref=rss
CBC previews Wednesday hearing.
WRT Balsillie being allowed to bid against NHL's rejection as potential owner (and able to pull anti-trust into the equation)....

Touching back on the media coverage discussion earlier, it's painful to read articles with depictions like this:

Balsillie later agreed to purchase the Predators for $238 million US from Craig Leipold in 2007, and began a season-ticket drive in Hamilton when Leipold had second thoughts and scuttled the deal.

 

[CGG]

NHL may only bid $140m, but Balsillie's bid would incur an additional creditor (City of Glendale due to breaking Jobing.com lease) with perhaps two times his bid's amount, there by decreasing the amount paid to unsecured creditors so they get pennies on the dollar rather than about a dollar from the NHL bid.

I think that's a bit of an oversimplification. The Balsillie bid throws Glendale under the bus right away, but at least offers up more cash so they get something. The NHL's bid throws Glendale under the bus less than a year from now, and gives them nothing. Categorizing the NHL's bid as one that doesn't incur an additional creditor is disingenuous. Glendale will be left with nothing, and the NHL will move the Coyotes to KC if the NHL wins this bid. I don't think a judge will fall for it, to be honest.