Post-Game Talk: Phoenix 3, Penguins 1. One? ONE? ONE *** **** GOAL?

[JimmyTwoTimes]

everyone here wants to make trades to fill the spots. But if we can't do that, our rookies are better than a lot of our vets.

Kunitz - Crosby - _____
Jussi - Malkin - Neal
_____ - Sutter - _____
_____ - Vitale - _____

Those five spots need filled, hopefully partially by trades. Our available players to fill them are
Adams, Glass, Pyatt, Connor, Megna, Bennett, Gibbons, Ebbet, Still, Kobasew and Engelland

Looking at that list, I would absolutely pick most of those rookies over the vets.

On defense, I'd play Maatta and one of Despres or Bortuzzo. And lets say we actually do trade Letang, I would have no problem playing all 3. They are all better than Orpik and Engelland.

I would rather play kids who might suck over vets who we know will suck.

Kunitz - Crosby - Bennett/trade
Jokinen - Malkin - Neal
Bennett /trade - Sutter - Megna
Glass - Vitale - Engelland

Just one option if there's only one solid move to be made this year ( Shero will probably play it safe this year after going all in last). We just need Bennett and Vitale to get healthy, and for everyone else to remain.

If this was fantasy hockey playoffs, then I'd remove Glass and Engo.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Despres and Bortuzzo are better at hockey than Orpik. Sill and Gibbons are better at hockey than Adams. I really don't give a damn about their experience. Orpik and Adams suck. Our team has plenty of experience without them.

 

[Gurglesons]

Hopefully in the playoffs we just roll 7 d and Despres is getting minutes too.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Kunitz - Crosby - Bennett/trade
Jokinen - Malkin - Neal
Bennett /trade - Sutter - Megna
Glass - Vitale - Engelland

Just one option if there's only one solid move to be made this year ( Shero will probably play it safe this year after going all in last). We just need Bennett and Vitale to get healthy, and for everyone else to remain.

If this was fantasy hockey playoffs, then I'd remove Glass and Engo.

Right, so we pretty much agree. 3 forward rookies if we don't make a trade, two if we do. Most of us agree that at least one trade is pretty much a necessity. Ideally, we bring in two forwards and can bump Megna to the 4th line.

What are your thoughts on Orpik vs Despres/Bortuzzo?

 

[Ugene Magic]

Hopefully in the playoffs we just roll 7 d and Despres is getting minutes too.

That's a possibility.

 

[Ogrezilla]

That's a possibility.

Except it would be Engo getting minutes, not Despres.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Except it would be Engo getting minutes, not Despres.

That also could be true, and I totally forgot about him. Like I said before though, the roster won't be limited during the playoffs and we'll most likely see an array of configurations throughout the playoffs unless the roster in place is winning, and we all know how that goes.

 

[Ogrezilla]

If we don't make trades, I'd have no problem going with 7 D. Our depth D-men are much better than our depth forwards. Our 9th d-man is better than our 12th forward.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

The thing is that I do get the idea that veterans are going to be less mistake prone and in today's NHL where it is all about systems and shot blocking and 2 to 1 games players who have years of experience are less prone to mistakes which can cost you games.

But you can make major mistakes when your body starts failing you from age too.

That is the equation that Bylsma seems to miss.

Now is the time to get the kids the experience that they need. When the games mean nothing given our lead. The kids can make all the mistakes that they want to and it means nothing except they get experience and we see what we have.

That is the part that makes Bylsma's actions criminal.

 

[Ugene Magic]

The thing is that I do get the idea that veterans are going to be less mistake prone and in today's NHL where it is all about systems and shot blocking and 2 to 1 games players who have years of experience are less prone to mistakes which can cost you games.

But you can make major mistakes when your body starts failing you from age too.

That is the equation that Bylsma seems to miss.

Now is the time to get the kids the experience that they need. When the games mean nothing given our lead. The kids can make all the mistakes that they want to and it means nothing except they get experience and we see what we have.

That is the part that makes Bylsma's actions criminal.

That seems like a next season scenario for all sense and purposes.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Right, so we pretty much agree. 3 forward rookies if we don't make a trade, two if we do. Most of us agree that at least one trade is pretty much a necessity. Ideally, we bring in two forwards and can bump Megna to the 4th line.

What are your thoughts on Orpik vs Despres/Bortuzzo?

I only have one rookie forward, trade or not.

Maata would be the rookie on defense. No doubt I'd prefer Despres over Orpik. But I don't consider him a rook. While 6 games isn't a lot, he has a little bit of playoff experience. Orpik either just doesn't give a **** anymore or his body is done. Easy decision.

I would certainly play Glass if he keeps this play up. And even Engo on the 4th line over someone like Gibbons. I just don't want that many rookies. Adams and Orpik are the two I want replaced, that's it. Assuming we stay healthy once Vitale and Bennett come back . If that's not the case, we have some problems.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I only have one rookie forward, trade or not.

Maata would be the rookie on defense. No doubt I'd prefer Despres over Orpik. But I don't consider him a rook. While 6 games isn't a lot, he has a little bit of playoff experience. Orpik either just doesn't give a **** anymore or his body is done. Easy decision.

I would certainly play Glass if he keeps this play up. And even Engo on the 4th line over someone like Gibbons. I just don't want that many rookies. Adams and Orpik are the two I want replaced, that's it. Assuming we stay healthy once Vitale and Bennett come back . If that's not the case, we have some problems.

Ok, if you aren't considering Bennett or Despres rookies (which is fair as they've both seen the playoffs), then nobody on this board wants 5 rookies in the line-up. You might find a few who want 4 if we make no trades.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Ok, if you aren't considering Bennett or Despres rookies (which is fair as they've both seen the playoffs), then nobody on this board wants 5 rookies in the line-up.

Megna, Maata, Bortuzzo, Gibbons, and Sill are who I was referring to. And if you take out Sill, that's 4 that plenty want in the lineup.

I think it would be a huge mistake relying on that many young guys. Having them as depth and dressing them here and there for some fresh legs would be a good idea.

I'd still like to make 2 trades. Engo playing on the 4th line is if we only make one move. Like I said, I think Shero plays it safe this year. Don't see him moving another 1st, nor giving up any of our top prospects other than Despres(that would be the one move I'm referring to). But we'll see...never know.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Megna, Maata, Bortuzzo, Gibbons, and Sill are who I was referring to. And if you take out Sill, that's 4 that plenty want in the lineup.

I think it would be a huge mistake relying on that many young guys. Having them as depth and dressing them here and there for some fresh legs would be a good idea.

I'd still like to make 2 trades. Engo playing on the 4th line is if we only make one move. Like I said, I think Shero plays it safe this year. Don't see him moving another 1st, nor giving up any of our top prospects other than Despres(that would be the one move I'm referring to). But we'll see...never know.

What sucks is that we both know Adams and Orpik will be in the line-up even if we make 2 trades. Megna, Gibbons, Bortuzzo, Despres and Engo all on the bench.

 

[WhatsaMaatta]

I would say Crosby probably misses Dupuis of last year more than anything.

I don't blame Gibbons totally for the line not clicking. Kunitz hasn't played particularly well, and Crosby has looked average. Gibbons has shown great individual efforts. He has had some nice forechecking and passes. His speed is a great asset like in yesterday's powerplay

However, Gibbons also makes rookie mistakes. He forces passes that are not open and telegraphs his passes which has resulted in at least two goals. His off-puck positioning is out-of-sync with the rest of his line and on occassion the defensive pairing particularly transitioning out of the defensive and neutral zones and cycling in the offensive zone. He has missed some wide open shots. His defensive decision making and positioning is questionable.

I think people underrate how important positioning and predictability (knowing where a person is going to be and what they are going to do) particularly with Crosby's style. Gibbons doesn't have spectacular talent to make up the deficit and Crosby/Kunitz haven't been able to either, yet. In terms of options, I think Gibbons should be on the first line, and Crosby/Kunitz need to simplify their playing.

Gibbons isn't a bad player, and he works hard. But, how many teams in the NHL would Gibbons be starting or playing significant minutes on the first line?

How many teams would have Dupuis on their first line? Just because he's on the 1st line doesn't make him a first liner. He isn't offensively gifted- he's just a guy who puts his head down and works really hard. He's solid position ally and defensively. He's a perfect fit for the 3rd line. But he's beyond replaceable on the 1st.

These mistakes you're talking about Gibbons making- "rookie mistakes"- are made by nearly every player on this roster on a regular basis, Crosby included. Forced passes and missed shots occur frequently, and Dupuis has had more than his fair share. As far as Gibbons meshing with his line, I seem to remember other more talented players, like Hossa, having adjustment periods.

I don't think anyone is going to say that Gibbons is a better player than Dupuis. I hope Shero can find a legit upgrade for Sid's wing. But let's not act like he doesn't have some positives. He uses his speed and vision to create offense, and has been able to find soft areas on the ice for good scoring opportunities. He's made some great passes that we would certainly never see from Dupuis, too.

 

[Ugene Magic]

What sucks is that we both know Adams and Orpik will be in the line-up even if we make 2 trades. Megna, Gibbons, Bortuzzo, Despres and Engo all on the bench.

If it was their position they were trading for this would make some sense.

 

[Fire Shero*]

I was out of town since Sunday. I haven't even seen highlights.

Is Kobasew still playing with Sid?

I see the irrational Megna love is tapering down just a bit.

 

[Ogrezilla]

If it was their position they were trading for this would make some sense.

Well for Adams, we are trading for forwards. So you'd think trickle down would push the worst forwards out. But instead, it will push guys better than Adams out while Adams stays put.

As for Orpik, you're right. Unless he himself is traded, a trade won't have any effect on his position. Its still frustrating that our 8th best d-man is a lock for top 4 icetime.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I was out of town since Sunday. I haven't even seen highlights.

Is Kobasew still playing with Sid?

I see the irrational Megna love is tapering down just a bit.

Kobasew was scratched both games. Glass and Gibbons played with Sid.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Well for Adams, we are trading for forwards. So you'd think trickle down would push the worst forwards out. But instead, it will push guys better than Adams out while Adams stays put.

As for Orpik, you're right. Unless he himself is traded, a trade won't have any effect on his position. Its still frustrating that our 8th best d-man is a lock for top 4 icetime.

I'm not as invested in the Adams bit, 4th line role player. There's definitely room for talk against him. He has been in and out of the line up in years past for Vitale and others. No qualms here on that, but that's a moot point for me since he can be in and out for any given game when the roster is in it's proper make up. Healthy and the third line is consistently working. This is just a bad season bottom six wise.

There's no reason to worry about Orpik in a playoff sense since that's where he'll bring it. Those couple trades should bring about that depth that's needed, and who knows if they even use a roster player in a move. I'm under the impression that Vokoun will be out the entire season, he has steps to clear before he can play, and why would you sacrifice the roster anywhere beyond the Olympics to get him in the lineup? If Vokoun is ready by the playoffs then great because, Zatkoff is doing well enough for the regular season. 3 goalies for the playoffs is better than two.

I just see a bunch of depth with a couple moves, and I do see Adams being in and out of the lineup with a fully healthy team, sans Dupuis & Vokoun. It's just a shame Vitale and Sill got injured, but they will both be back well before the playoffs so there's your hope, along with some punishing games in the playoffs that will/should pull Adams out here or there.

 

[drpepper]

How many teams would have Dupuis on their first line? Just because he's on the 1st line doesn't make him a first liner. He isn't offensively gifted- he's just a guy who puts his head down and works really hard. He's solid position ally and defensively. He's a perfect fit for the 3rd line. But he's beyond replaceable on the 1st.

These mistakes you're talking about Gibbons making- "rookie mistakes"- are made by nearly every player on this roster on a regular basis, Crosby included. Forced passes and missed shots occur frequently, and Dupuis has had more than his fair share. As far as Gibbons meshing with his line, I seem to remember other more talented players, like Hossa, having adjustment periods.

I don't think anyone is going to say that Gibbons is a better player than Dupuis. I hope Shero can find a legit upgrade for Sid's wing. But let's not act like he doesn't have some positives. He uses his speed and vision to create offense, and has been able to find soft areas on the ice for good scoring opportunities. He's made some great passes that we would certainly never see from Dupuis, too.

I didn't say that Dupuis is a first liner or should be on the first line. I said that Crosby/Kunitz probably missed his known positioning and playing habits, defensive responsibility, and point production from last year.

People have referenced Gibbon's better skill, offensive ability and creativity as compared to Dupuis; I have no idea if they think Gibbons is a better player.

I haven't denied any of Gibbon's positive attributes - individual skill, creativity, speed, hard work, forechecking, etc.

But I don't think he had his best game last night. I don't think that he has been the most creative player on that line (see pg 5-6 for the beginning of the Gibbons conversation). I do think his off-puck movement needs work. I do think that his mistakes happen more frequently per game and in more games than some other players (not all). Players making similar mistakes have been vilified on occasion here. I labeled them as "rookie mistakes" because I could see Gibbons getting better with experience and because they usually happen more frequently with rookies. I just think Gibbons has some aspects of his game to continue to work on.

I think among other issues, such as their own bad play, not being able to anticipate Gibbons as well as Gibbons's mistakes have played a small role in Crosby's and Kunitz's less than stellar recent performance. I don't think Adams or Glass or Kobasew or even Megna or Sutter would be or have been better on that line. It is impossible to tell if Bennett didn't get hurt or if Dupuis didn't get hurt if the line would perform better. I think time and experience will help both Gibbons and the line.

 

[ColePens]

I was out of town since Sunday. I haven't even seen highlights.

Is Kobasew still playing with Sid?

I see the irrational Megna love is tapering down just a bit.

If you think the love for Megna is irrational, then you obviously don't watch for anything but points. Telling by most of your posts about "wingerzzz" then I can see why you say that.

Megna's speed and tenacity to get to the front of the net is something this team has needed. Watch what he does away from the puck. We aren't saying he's the answer, but he gives us something we desperately need.

I have been against getting a top 6 winger for the longest time, but now that Staal is gone, we need to do it. But don't take away from Megna because we need a top 6 winger. Those are 2 separate arguments.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I'm not as invested in the Adams bit, 4th line role player. There's definitely room for talk against him. He has been in and out of the line up in years past for Vitale and others. No qualms here on that, but that's a moot point for me since he can be in and out for any given game when the roster is in it's proper make up. Healthy and the third line is consistently working. This is just a bad season bottom six wise.

There's no reason to worry about Orpik in a playoff sense since that's where he'll bring it. Those couple trades should bring about that depth that's needed, and who knows if they even use a roster player in a move. I'm under the impression that Vokoun will be out the entire season, he has steps to clear before he can play, and why would you sacrifice the roster anywhere beyond the Olympics to get him in the lineup? If Vokoun is ready by the playoffs then great because, Zatkoff is doing well enough for the regular season. 3 goalies for the playoffs is better than two.

I just see a bunch of depth with a couple moves, and I do see Adams being in and out of the lineup with a fully healthy team, sans Dupuis & Vokoun. It's just a shame Vitale and Sill got injured, but they will both be back well before the playoffs so there's your hope, along with some punishing games in the playoffs that will/should pull Adams out here or there.

Where are you getting this Adams in and out of the line-up stuff? He's missed two games since 2009, and he was hurt. Since Dan Bylsma became the full-time coach, he has never once kept Adams out of the line-up for a regular season or playoff game unless he was injured.

 

[UnrealMachine]

Where are you getting this Adams in and out of the line-up stuff? He's missed two games since 2009, and he was hurt. Since Dan Bylsma became the full-time coach, he has never once kept Adams out of the line-up for a regular season or playoff game unless he was injured.

If we can score goals that don't go in the net, I see no reason that Adams can't still play despite being scratched.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Where are you getting this Adams in and out of the line-up stuff? He's missed two games since 2009, and he was hurt. Since Dan Bylsma became the full-time coach, he has never once kept Adams out of the line-up for a regular season or playoff game unless he was injured.

Haha, at least you know I'm not lying about being invested in him. Seriously, I always thought he was taken out here or there. It could be the c/w switch that throws me off.

Either way, good catch, Ogre.