OT: Philadelphia Phillies (MLB): Wheels and Sarge out.

[sobrien]

In fairness, I recall Abreu was lighting up winter league ball. I don't hate Amaro for taking a chance with a minor league deal.

 

[FLYguy3911]

In fairness, I recall Abreu was lighting up winter league ball. I don't hate Amaro for taking a chance with a minor league deal.

Yeah I just posted his stats on the last page.

The same league Darin Ruf was on pace to break the VWL HR record (Gattis broke it). He's still getting on base.

It's a minor league deal. We shouldn't get worked up. It's just so ironic with everyone making fun of Ruben's moves this offseason he goes and gets a blast from the past as if to troll the fanbase.

 

[JDinkalage Morgoone]

Yeah I just posted his stats on the last page.

The same league Darin Ruf was on pace to break the VWL HR record (Gattis broke it). He's still getting on base.

It's a minor league deal. We shouldn't get worked up. It's just so ironic with everyone making fun of Ruben's moves this offseason he goes and gets a blast from the past as if to troll the fanbase.

LOL yes this is exactly it for me. I don't ever get mad about minor league deals.

However, if he goes and signs Vernon Wells like the rumors I've heard...

 

[Broad Street Elite]

Phillies are going to suck this season, so I don't even get remotely upset about these one year deals.

 

[Chinatown88]

Ken Rosenthal ‏@Ken_Rosenthal 1m
BREAKING: Tanaka to #Yankees, seven years, $155M, opt-out after fourth year.

They just seem to have a bottomless pot filled with money. Oh goodness gracious.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

There's really no harm in the Abreu deal. Its essentially a tryout. He's not being brought in to go 30/30 again and start in RF. He's being brought in to see if he can still hit and be the 4th/5th OF.

Worst case scenario he bombs and doesn't make the team. Best case scenario he's a solid bench player. The likely outcome (if he even makes the team) is that he will be as good as any other scrub 4/5 OF we would have had.

 

[Bernie Parent 1974]

They just seem to have a bottomless pot filled with money. Oh goodness gracious.

they really did need to address their pitching

 

[Hiesenberg]

I wish the Phillies would make good baseball moves. They haven't in years.

 

[Karma]

The Yankees sign a sought-after player to a big contract? I'm shocked.

 

[Flyotes]

they really did need to address their pitching

Yeah. This moves them from questionable pitching to extremely strong on paper if the rest of the rotation bounces back.

 

[Hiesenberg]

Tanaka has a billion miles on that arm. Its super risky

 

[BringBackHakstol]

There's really no harm in the Abreu deal. Its essentially a tryout. He's not being brought in to go 30/30 again and start in RF. He's being brought in to see if he can still hit and be the 4th/5th OF.

Worst case scenario he bombs and doesn't make the team. Best case scenario he's a solid bench player. The likely outcome (if he even makes the team) is that he will be as good as any other scrub 4/5 OF we would have had.

There's no harm in the same way bringing in Wes Helms, Laynce Nix, Delmon Young, Ty Wigginton, etc was no harm - that its a small move for small contracts.

But the harm is really that adding bad baseball players to your team is really not what you want to be doing.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

There's no harm in the same way bringing in Wes Helms, Laynce Nix, Delmon Young, Ty Wigginton, etc was no harm - that its a small move for small contracts.

But the harm is really that adding bad baseball players to your team is really not what you want to be doing.

Nix, Wigginton, and Helms were bench players. They put up bench-player numbers. Sure, there are bench players that might have put up better numbers, but these guys are bench players for a reason. Delmon Young was a bad move and I don't think anyone is going to argue that at this point, but to complain about bench players because they put up bench player type numbers is just silly.

If they were bringing in Bobby Abreu on some kind of guaranteed deal, with the idea of him being a starter, I would be in complete agreement. It would be ridiculous. But he is being brought in on a tryout basis to be an extra outfielder. There is literally zero risk in this move. He was a good hitter for most of his career and while it may be unlikely that he even come close to that, he is not being brought in to do that. He's coming in on a tryout. If he plays well, great. We got a nice deal. If not, cut him loose.

If he can come off the bench and bat .250 and take a bunch of walks, then he has done his job as an extra outfielder. He'll probably get a handful of starts in the OF to give someone a rest or in emergency injury situation or at DH if he can still swing. He's not going to be team captain. He's not going to be an all-star. He's a 4/5 outfielder. A guy that will see maybe 100 games if he's lucky as a PH or DH with an occasional possible start in the OF.

But seriously, I mean, what are you looking for in a 4/5 outfielder? I'd love a 4/5 outfielder to bat .300 and hit 30 homers, but that's not how it works. Maybe there's a couple guys that surprise, or a rookie cutting his teeth plays well, but those are the rare scenarios. If they were putting up numbers better than the .250ish average and the like, they wouldn't be bench players, they would be starters. At least with Abreu on a TRYOUT the team won't be hurt if he comes in and sucks.

 

[El Emperor]

Anyway you look at this, even with low risk and everything, it just does nothing but tick off the fans that see other teams make good moves for younger players that actually have impact. This is a team almost 6 years removed from a World Series win and about 3 or 4 years from being one of the elite teams of the MLB. I know pickings may be slim, but why isn't this front office trying to improve the team not only for this season, but for the future as well?

For what it's worth, I would rather see Amaro making these moves rather than trade away any decent assets left for the mediocre "band-aid" that may put the team in the wild card hunt. It's just so typical of what we have seen Amaro do over the years that it just seems like a complete joke.

 

[Phileeguy]

If he can come off the bench and bat .250 and take a bunch of walks, then he has done his job as an extra outfielder. He'll probably get a handful of starts in the OF to give someone a rest or in emergency injury situation or at DH if he can still swing. He's not going to be team captain. He's not going to be an all-star. He's a 4/5 outfielder. A guy that will see maybe 100 games if he's lucky as a PH or DH with an occasional possible start in the OF.

But seriously, I mean, what are you looking for in a 4/5 outfielder?

What I'm looking for in a 4/5 outfielder is close to what is bolded. But I'd rather it be coming from a younger player that's trying to break into the bigs than an over the hill Bobby Abreu. Unfortunately, when you're signing a Bobby Abreu and bringing back a John Mayberry Jr, you're basically admitting that you've probably got no young guys ready to outperform them. This is what angers me about this signing. RAJ and his scouts have not properly replenished many positions with talent in the system, notably the outfield.

Here's some numbers:
Player A's Last 378 games: .266/.301/.404 41HR 176RBI
Player B's Last 396 games: .252/.352/.392 31HR 162RBI

Player A may take fewer walks, but is generally a more productive hitter. Player A is Delmon Young, and Player B is Bobby Abreu. Bobby might still have a keen eye, but is his bat speed fast enough to hit the ones he likes at his age? If you look at the rest of his numbers for an answer to that question, the response would be no. Just about all of his numbers have been in steady decline since about 2008. He's also not going to be a threat on the basepaths to steal like he once was.

Also we got on Bobby a lot for his glove work back in 2004. Bobby is about to turn 40 so I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to think he could be just as bad or worse than Young was last year. So it would be good if Bobby didn't see the field that often.

If this team had more talent and was expected to contend this year, I'd probably be okay with this signing. But since you're slapping a player who is best suited for a depth/bench role on a team with too many question marks already I see it as a pointless move, even if it's low risk.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

What I'm looking for in a 4/5 outfielder is close to what is bolded. But I'd rather it be coming from a younger player that's trying to break into the bigs than an over the hill Bobby Abreu. Unfortunately, when you're signing a Bobby Abreu and bringing back a John Mayberry Jr, you're basically admitting that you've probably got no young guys ready to outperform them. This is what angers me about this signing. RAJ and his scouts have not properly replenished many positions with talent in the system, notably the outfield.

Here's some numbers:
Player A's Last 378 games: .266/.301/.404 41HR 176RBI
Player B's Last 396 games: .252/.352/.392 31HR 162RBI

Player A may take fewer walks, but is generally a more productive hitter. Player A is Delmon Young, and Player B is Bobby Abreu. Bobby might still have a keen eye, but is his bat speed fast enough to hit the ones he likes at his age? If you look at the rest of his numbers for an answer to that question, the response would be no. Just about all of his numbers have been in steady decline since about 2008. He's also not going to be a threat on the basepaths to steal like he once was.

Also we got on Bobby a lot for his glove work back in 2004. Bobby is about to turn 40 so I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to think he could be just as bad or worse than Young was last year. So it would be good if Bobby didn't see the field that often.

If this team had more talent and was expected to contend this year, I'd probably be okay with this signing. But since you're slapping a player who is best suited for a depth/bench role on a team with too many question marks already I see it as a pointless move, even if it's low risk.

But again, Abreu has not even made the team. I'm not saying he will or that this is a great move, simply that there is no harm in the signing. There will be other players at Spring Training vying for the same position. I don't know how young of a player you are looking for to be the 4/5 outfielder, but typically it is not good for a younger player to be that guy.

Any player that is going to be this team's 4/5 outfielder is going to likely be a player that has peaked already, or will be a younger player with no real hope of turning into anything more than a 4/5 outfielder. Younger doesn't always mean better. If you have a young kid, say sub 25, playing him as a pinch hitter and utility man isn't a good idea (unless that is the projection for him long term). Most of your 4/5 outfielders (and other bench players for that matter) are going to be around 30. Not exactly the same as Bobby Abreu, but its not like he is taking playing time away from some kid who will be starter here one day.

Again, I'm not saying that this is a great move by any means, but it is nothing to get your panties in a bunch over.

 

[Hiesenberg]

But again, Abreu has not even made the team. I'm not saying he will or that this is a great move, simply that there is no harm in the signing. There will be other players at Spring Training vying for the same position. I don't know how young of a player you are looking for to be the 4/5 outfielder, but typically it is not good for a younger player to be that guy.

Any player that is going to be this team's 4/5 outfielder is going to likely be a player that has peaked already, or will be a younger player with no real hope of turning into anything more than a 4/5 outfielder. Younger doesn't always mean better. If you have a young kid, say sub 25, playing him as a pinch hitter and utility man isn't a good idea (unless that is the projection for him long term). Most of your 4/5 outfielders (and other bench players for that matter) are going to be around 30. Not exactly the same as Bobby Abreu, but its not like he is taking playing time away from some kid who will be starter here one day.

Again, I'm not saying that this is a great move by any means, but it is nothing to get your panties in a bunch over.

It kind of is, when Amaro seems to just make bench and depth moves, when this team on the layer has a serious talent problem.

After the 1st two pitchers in the rotation, its absolute garbage with a bunch of #6 & #7s most likely.

The lineup, well he pretty much handcuffed himself there, Rollins/Byrd/Howard/Chooch will give average to below average #s. You have a 0 power CF and Brown & Asche are essentially (and literally) rookies.

The pen...well thats a whole cluster in itself.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

It kind of is, when Amaro seems to just make bench and depth moves, when this team on the layer has a serious talent problem.

After the 1st two pitchers in the rotation, its absolute garbage with a bunch of #6 & #7s most likely.

The lineup, well he pretty much handcuffed himself there, Rollins/Byrd/Howard/Chooch will give average to below average #s. You have a 0 power CF and Brown & Asche are essentially (and literally) rookies.

The pen...well thats a whole cluster in itself.

You are talking about every move other than the Abreu move. While I essentially agree with most of what are you saying regarding the rotation and the lineup, the Abreu move is not an issue. Every year there are a number of old vets that get invited to Spring Training. This is nothing new. This is nothing crazy. Tony Gwynn Jr. is also a ST invitee this year, he's 31 and spent all of last year in AAA. Again, not the same as Bobby Abreu, but these types of players are at ST every single season on pretty much every single team. If they make the team, great. If not, oh well. These moves get made by every GM everywhere to fill spots.

You want to complain about the job Amaro has done, great. I'm right there with you. But this move is not something that should factor into that discussion whatsoever. We might as well complain about who the Phillies took in the Rule 5 draft or who was selected from the Phillies in the rule 5 draft or complain about the high schooler you never heard of that the Phillies took in the 14th round of the draft three years ago. It's complaining for the sake of complaining. If it wasn't Bobby Abreu getting the invite, it would be another over the hill vet and no one would bat an eye.

 

[Phileeguy]

But again, Abreu has not even made the team.

I have a feeling he's going to. The Phillies are short on quality OF, and LHB. RAJ knew that signing him would be polarizing, so it would be in his best interest for it to work out. I think Bobby will be afforded every opportunity to earn a roster spot.

I don't know how young of a player you are looking for to be the 4/5 outfielder

Preferably, younger than 40.

but typically it is not good for a younger player to be that guy.

Normally, on teams that are expected to be half decent I'd agree. However, I don't see the Phillies being a good team.

Any player that is going to be this team's 4/5 outfielder is going to likely be a player that has peaked already, or will be a younger player with no real hope of turning into anything more than a 4/5 outfielder.

In terms off odds, yeah that's probably true. But every once in a while you'll have guys that are 4th/5th OF that turn out into something good. Look no further than Victorino and Werth. If you're going to throw stuff at the wall to see if it sticks, like I'd argue that RAJ is doing, I'd rather him do it with younger players so we can see what they're like.

 

[zarley zelepukin]

What I'm looking for in a 4/5 outfielder is close to what is bolded. But I'd rather it be coming from a younger player that's trying to break into the bigs than an over the hill Bobby Abreu. Unfortunately, when you're signing a Bobby Abreu and bringing back a John Mayberry Jr, you're basically admitting that you've probably got no young guys ready to outperform them. This is what angers me about this signing. RAJ and his scouts have not properly replenished many positions with talent in the system, notably the outfield.

Here's some numbers:
Player A's Last 378 games: .266/.301/.404 41HR 176RBI
Player B's Last 396 games: .252/.352/.392 31HR 162RBI

Player A may take fewer walks, but is generally a more productive hitter. Player A is Delmon Young, and Player B is Bobby Abreu. Bobby might still have a keen eye, but is his bat speed fast enough to hit the ones he likes at his age? If you look at the rest of his numbers for an answer to that question, the response would be no. Just about all of his numbers have been in steady decline since about 2008. He's also not going to be a threat on the basepaths to steal like he once was.

Also we got on Bobby a lot for his glove work back in 2004. Bobby is about to turn 40 so I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to think he could be just as bad or worse than Young was last year. So it would be good if Bobby didn't see the field that often.

If this team had more talent and was expected to contend this year, I'd probably be okay with this signing. But since you're slapping a player who is best suited for a depth/bench role on a team with too many question marks already I see it as a pointless move, even if it's low risk.

Player B is still the better hitter in that scenario. RBIs can be affected by placement in the batting order among other things, and even though player A was hitting more HRs, the closeness of the slugging %s means player B was making up for it by hitting a lot more doubles.

Besides, Delmon was brought in with the intent to make him a starting OF. Abreu is here to compete for the 5th OFs job. Delmon could have been semi useful if the team was bright enough to use him right, and the same goes for Abreu if he can still hit on a level with the numbers you posted above.

And yes, this sort of means that they don't have anyone in the minors who they think is good enough for that role. But you have to remember, you don't really want any decent prospect to be stuck in a PH role while they're still trying to develop anyway. And even if the farm system is thin (and it is) that's a separate issue. We should be discussing that instead of whether or not signing Abreu is a good idea given the circumstances.

 

[zarley zelepukin]

I have a feeling he's going to. The Phillies are short on quality OF, and LHB. RAJ knew that signing him would be polarizing, so it would be in his best interest for it to work out. I think Bobby will be afforded every opportunity to earn a roster spot.


Preferably, younger than 40.


Normally, on teams that are expected to be half decent I'd agree. However, I don't see the Phillies being a good team.


In terms off odds, yeah that's probably true. But every once in a while you'll have guys that are 4th/5th OF that turn out into something good. Look no further than Victorino and Werth. If you're going to throw stuff at the wall to see if it sticks, like I'd argue that RAJ is doing, I'd rather him do it with younger players so we can see what they're like.

Shane Victorino got over 400 PAs in his first full year on the big club. Werth got 300. They weren't in a pinch hitting role, they were 4th OF or platoon guys who were going to get some playing time. It doesn't look like that's going to be Abreu's role here.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

I have a feeling he's going to. The Phillies are short on quality OF, and LHB. RAJ knew that signing him would be polarizing, so it would be in his best interest for it to work out. I think Bobby will be afforded every opportunity to earn a roster spot.

Perhaps. But again, if he can hit like a 4/5 OF, who cares? What is the difference between Bobby Abreu making this team and putting up 4/5 OF numbers, and anyone else doing the same? Absolutely nothing, because they are 4/5 OFers. Obviously, I would prefer a 4/5 guy to put up starting lineup numbers, but that is not something that happens every day. It happens, for sure, but not every day.

Preferably, younger than 40.

See above. It is irrelevant. 4/5 OFers are a dime a dozen.

Normally, on teams that are expected to be half decent I'd agree. However, I don't see the Phillies being a good team.

Not really. Even on bad teams. You don't want a kid playing 100 games as a PH. That is not going to help him develop. If the player is not good enough to be a starter in the majors yet, he shouldn't ride the pine in the majors just because. It's why if you look across major league rosters, I would wager most 4/5 OFers and Utility guys are probably between the ages of 28-35.

In terms off odds, yeah that's probably true. But every once in a while you'll have guys that are 4th/5th OF that turn out into something good. Look no further than Victorino and Werth. If you're going to throw stuff at the wall to see if it sticks, like I'd argue that RAJ is doing, I'd rather him do it with younger players so we can see what they're like.

Shane Victorino was a R5 guy that Phillies clearly got very lucky with. Not too many R5 guys turn out that well. Though I am sure there are others, I cannot think of any. Jayson Werth was brought in to play RF or at least compete for that position. Not to be a PH 4/5 OF. Again, if Amaro brought Bobby Abreu in with the idea that he will be a starter, or even a platoon guy, he is out of his mind. But we all know that is not what is going on here. He is being brought in to be a LH bat off the bench and to DH against the AL. A guy who can take some walks, get on base, maybe steal a couple bags, and maybe (MAYBE) get a couple starts in the OF. And that is IF he makes the team to begin with. He is not being handed the spot, he's a ST invitee on a minor league deal. No harm, no foul, regardless of what happens.

 

[Phileeguy]

Player B is still the better hitter in that scenario. RBIs can be affected by placement in the batting order among other things, and even though player A was hitting more HRs, the closeness of the slugging %s means player B was making up for it by hitting a lot more doubles.

My point was that those numbers were pretty similar and that if you're going to have a guy fill that role, Delmon Young could've done a similar job - Not that by any means am I advocating this.

Shane Victorino got over 400 PAs in his first full year on the big club. Werth got 300. They weren't in a pinch hitting role, they were 4th OF or platoon guys who were going to get some playing time. It doesn't look like that's going to be Abreu's role here.

Shane Victorino was slated to only be in a PH/defensive substitution role in his first year. Through the first 33 games of that season he only had 31 PAs. Then Aaron Rowand went and broke his nose, Shane proved himself and earned more playing time.

 

[The Couturier Effect]

Broadcast team news....

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/mlb...md=20140122&content_id=66979598&vkey=news_mlb

Multiple sources said the top candidates are: Moyer, who has worked as an analyst with ESPN; Mitch Williams, who works at MLB Network and has partnered in the booth with McCarthy at FOX; Mickey Morandini, who is a coach with Triple-A Lehigh Valley and has performed postgame analysis with the Cubs; and Kevin Stocker, who receives glowing reviews for his work with the Pac-12 and CBS Sports networks. Some are giving Moyer and Williams an edge.

I wouldn't mind Moyer.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Broadcast team news....

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/mlb...md=20140122&content_id=66979598&vkey=news_mlb



I wouldn't mind Moyer.

I would love Moyer. Morandini intrigues me. I have never seen him in a broadcast role, but he was one of my favorite players growing up so I'd be interested in seeing what he can do.