OT: Philadelphia Phillies (MLB): How is Ruben still here?

[FLYguy3911]

This season was the least I've watched baseball since I was probably 5 and baseball is my favorite sport. The Phillies just never had my interest at any point this year.

 

[JDinkalage Morgoone]

This season was the least I've watched baseball since I was probably 5 and baseball is my favorite sport. The Phillies just never had my interest at any point this year.

Agreed. I had had 16 game season tickets since 2003, regularly going to maybe 20-30 games a season. This season my dad cancelled the tix (we shared them) and I went to maybe three games.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Agreed. I had had 16 game season tickets since 2003, regularly going to maybe 20-30 games a season. This season my dad cancelled the tix (we shared them) and I went to maybe three games.

I can accept the team being bad. I can't accept them being bad, having no plan, or future. Hopefully someone can get the ship turned. Hearing Gillick admit they need to rebuild is at least the first step.

 

[McNasty]

I can accept the team being bad. I can't accept them being bad, having no plan, or future. Hopefully someone can get the ship turned. Hearing Gollick admit they need to rebuild is at least the first step.

It's really not though, the fastest way to turn them around is to trade guys for younger players. Ruben has proven that's not his strong suit with the laughable returns we got for Pence and Lee.

 

[Jtown]

I can accept the team being bad. I can't accept them being bad, having no plan, or future. Hopefully someone can get the ship turned. Hearing Gollick admit they need to rebuild is at least the first step.

every team has a plan, the plan is to win. The problem is that drafting players is total crapshoot and like most sports you need a top 3 pick to get a real impact player.

Did the Nats have a plan ? No, they just had the top pick during years where the two best generational prospects were available.

Did the phils have a plan? Not really, we were just fortunate enough to hit on some great picks like utley , howard, and rollins were all of the same age.

The plan is not what is important, its the strategy used.

 

[zarley zelepukin]

It seemed pretty clear to me that the team's strategy had shifted well before Gillick made those comments. Signing Byrd and Burnett was a pretty big hint, since they could have gone after better players for more money and they were never even competitive for those guys. Since they signed Papelbon, they haven't committed anything substantial to any veteran players.

This isn't something that most fans probably realize, but they've started to spend more on the farm system and international amateur free agents too. Admittedly, they were late to the party on that one and missed their opportunity to throw money at certain international prospects that small market teams couldn't touch. But they have signed some pretty good international talent over the last few years.

Their farm system isn't as bad as the non-prospect-following media wants to say. They think that if you don't have more than a couple top 100 prospects in AA or higher it means the system is bad. That's not the case. It's definitely not great, but it's not barren, and it will get even better after the next draft since they'll have a high pick.

 

[FLYguy3911]

It's really not though, the fastest way to turn them around is to trade guys for younger players. Ruben has proven that's not his strong suit with the laughable returns we got for Pence and Lee.

What's really not? You're not going to trade guys if you still think you can compete. The Phillies thought they could compete with a flawed roster and it set them back (or tried to trick fans to thinking they could compete in order to fill the seats).

every team has a plan, the plan is to win. The problem is that drafting players is total crapshoot and like most sports you need a top 3 pick to get a real impact player.

Did the Nats have a plan ? No, they just had the top pick during years where the two best generational prospects were available.

Did the phils have a plan? Not really, we were just fortunate enough to hit on some great picks like utley , howard, and rollins were all of the same age.

The plan is not what is important, its the strategy used.

Stretegy, plan. Same difference. Ruben hasn't valued the necessary traits that make up winning teams. In 2011, they were the best team in baseball and had arguably the best farm system in the league. In a little more than a year, the window slammed shut. Bad trades (that may not have been needed), bad luck, bad signings, and lettings guys like Werth walk lead to the demise.

You don't NEED a top 3 pick, but it certainly helps.

It seemed pretty clear to me that the team's strategy had shifted well before Gillick made those comments. Signing Byrd and Burnett was a pretty big hint, since they could have gone after better players for more money and they were never even competitive for those guys. Since they signed Papelbon, they haven't committed anything substantial to any veteran players.

This isn't something that most fans probably realize, but they've started to spend more on the farm system and international amateur free agents too. Admittedly, they were late to the party on that one and missed their opportunity to throw money at certain international prospects that small market teams couldn't touch. But they have signed some pretty good international talent over the last few years.

Their farm system isn't as bad as the non-prospect-following media wants to say. They think that if you don't have more than a couple top 100 prospects in AA or higher it means the system is bad. That's not the case. It's definitely not great, but it's not barren, and it will get even better after the next draft since they'll have a high pick.

That's the thing. They always seem to be behind the trends. They missed out on a golden opportunity in Latin America (and Cuba) before the restrictions were put in place. They actually did a good job of finding "gems" like Franco for relatively small bonuses, but again they didn't maximize their opportunity.

I agree the farm system isn't that bad- Probably 15-20ish. They have a pretty good top 3 in Crawford, Franco, and Nola. The thing is they haven't had upper level talent for a few seasons now- major league ready prospects. They've also done a poor job with player development. Their pitching prospects are all the same. Raw with little command.

 

[zarley zelepukin]

That's the thing. They always seem to be behind the trends. They missed out on a golden opportunity in Latin America (and Cuba) before the restrictions were put in place. They actually did a good job of finding "gems" like Franco for relatively small bonuses, but again they didn't maximize their opportunity.

I agree the farm system isn't that bad- Probably 15-20ish. They have a pretty good top 3 in Crawford, Franco, and Nola. The thing is they haven't had upper level talent for a few seasons now- major league ready prospects. They've also done a poor job with player development. Their pitching prospects are all the same. Raw with little command.

I agree that they've struggled with player development to some degree, but I don't think it's to the extent that it's often claimed. Every organization has injuries, but the Phillies have been especially hit hard at the upper levels, with Pettibone, Joseph, Martin, Morgan and maybe even Kelly Dugan and Jesse Biddle. All are guys who are pretty close to ML ready but got hurt (or in Dugan and Biddle's cases, keep getting hurt).

Their pitchers not having much command is a valid complaint, although that's partly a function of not having high picks, and Morgan's injury hurts them here too. They've gone for upside over a high floor a lot, but that changed this year. They have Nola, of course, and they drafted a couple other college pitchers with more refined skills.

 

[FLYguy3911]

I agree that they've struggled with player development to some degree, but I don't think it's to the extent that it's often claimed. Every organization has injuries, but the Phillies have been especially hit hard at the upper levels, with Pettibone, Joseph, Martin, Morgan and maybe even Kelly Dugan and Jesse Biddle. All are guys who are pretty close to ML ready but got hurt (or in Dugan and Biddle's cases, keep getting hurt).

Their pitchers not having much command is a valid complaint, although that's partly a function of not having high picks, and Morgan's injury hurts them here too. They've gone for upside over a high floor a lot, but that changed this year. They have Nola, of course, and they drafted a couple other college pitchers with more refined skills.

Yeah they have had some bad luck with injuries, I mentioned that in my previous post.

My whole gripe against player development is that the organization loved to draft high upside, toolsy, players, and they did a piss poor job of getting anything out of those picks. I know total blame cannot be placed on player development, scouting has definitely had its faults, but most of these guys were the same players they were when the started.

The command thing is more coaching than scouting IMO. High picks are generally the guys with the best raw stuff, not so much command so I can't give them the benefit of the doubt there. Nola looks to have good command, but the Phillies have had little involvement in his development. They hired a new minor league pitching coordinator so we will see what happens.

 

[JDinkalage Morgoone]

I think they need to go for broke on Tomas. I see no way around it.

 

[FLYguy3911]

I think they need to go for broke on Tomas. I see no way around it.

Me too. I'm skeptical though.

 

[JDinkalage Morgoone]

Top 30 FAs. Bold is who I want or would be ok if they signed

1 Max Scherzer
2 Jon Lester
3 James Shields
4 Hanley Ramirez
5 Victor Martinez
6 Pablo Sandoval
7 Nelson Cruz
8 Russell Martin
9 Yasmany Tomas
10 Melky Cabrera
11 Chase Headley
12 Andrew Miller
13 David Robertson
14 Nick Markakis
15 Francisco Liriano
16 Ervin Santana
17 Colby Rasmus
18 Jed Lowrie
19 Asdrubal Cabrera
20 Brandon McCarthy
21 Jason Hammel
22 Adam Laroche
23 Jake Peavy
24 Sergio Romo
25 Michael Cuddyer
26 Alex Rios
27 Luke Gregerson
28 Billy Butler
29 Norichika Aoki
30 Casey Janssen

Within reason, of course. I'd obviously like to have Max Scherzer.

 

[Sombastate]

Sign the top 3.

 

[FLYguy3911]

I'd like to see them take a shot on a guy like Brandon Morrow.

 

[sobrien]

Top 30 FAs. Bold is who I want or would be ok if they signed

1 Max Scherzer
2 Jon Lester
3 James Shields
4 Hanley Ramirez
5 Victor Martinez
6 Pablo Sandoval
7 Nelson Cruz
8 Russell Martin
9 Yasmany Tomas
10 Melky Cabrera
11 Chase Headley
12 Andrew Miller
13 David Robertson
14 Nick Markakis
15 Francisco Liriano
16 Ervin Santana
17 Colby Rasmus
18 Jed Lowrie
19 Asdrubal Cabrera
20 Brandon McCarthy
21 Jason Hammel
22 Adam Laroche
23 Jake Peavy
24 Sergio Romo
25 Michael Cuddyer
26 Alex Rios
27 Luke Gregerson
28 Billy Butler
29 Norichika Aoki
30 Casey Janssen

Within reason, of course. I'd obviously like to have Max Scherzer.

I'd love to see them pour money into the lineup and grab Hanley, Melky, and Cruz.

We are a playoff team with them, no doubt in my mind.

 

[FLYguy3911]

I'd love to see them pour money into the lineup and grab Hanley, Melky, and Cruz.

We are a playoff team with them, no doubt in my mind.

We have no rotation.

Aimlessly spending money in free agency is not the solution.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

As with JD, I could see how getting those 3 would do wonders. Two proven pitchers and a young power hitter. Sounds like a good plan.

 

[FLYguy3911]

I like Janssen and Gregerson, but I would rather spend the money elsewhere. Our bullpen is fine for where we are.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

Outside of the top 3, are there any starting pitchers we could go after or should go after?

 

[JDinkalage Morgoone]

Outside of the top 3, are there any starting pitchers we could go after or should go after?

I liked the idea of Morrow

 

[Halladay]

Liriano and Masterson are free agents.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Top 30 FAs. Bold is who I want or would be ok if they signed

1 Max Scherzer
2 Jon Lester
3 James Shields
4 Hanley Ramirez
5 Victor Martinez
6 Pablo Sandoval
7 Nelson Cruz
8 Russell Martin
9 Yasmany Tomas
10 Melky Cabrera
11 Chase Headley
12 Andrew Miller
13 David Robertson
14 Nick Markakis
15 Francisco Liriano
16 Ervin Santana
17 Colby Rasmus
18 Jed Lowrie
19 Asdrubal Cabrera
20 Brandon McCarthy
21 Jason Hammel
22 Adam Laroche
23 Jake Peavy
24 Sergio Romo
25 Michael Cuddyer
26 Alex Rios
27 Luke Gregerson
28 Billy Butler
29 Norichika Aoki
30 Casey Janssen

Within reason, of course. I'd obviously like to have Max Scherzer.

If Hamels is traded (as I suspect he will be), I'd go after Scherzer or Lester hard (or hell both if we have the money). Wind up getting Tomas, Scherzer, Lester, and Gregerson. Hope that Franco lives up to the hype.

C-Ruiz
1B-Utley/Howard/Franco/Asche
2B-Utley/Galvis/Someoneelse
SS-Jroll
3B-Franco/Asche
LF-Brown/Sizemore/Tomas
CF-Revere
RF-Tomas/Sizemore/Brown

Lester
Lee
XXX (Maybe Burnett)
XXX (maybe Nola? other FA?)
Williams/Kendrick

Back end of Bastardo, Gregerson, Diekman, De Fratus, and Paps (if he is still here).

That's a solid lineup if all those guys can be convinced to come here, and if Tomas and Franco live up to the hype...which, with the luck of the Phillies...they won't.

Also, I know people hate Kendrick, but I'd bring him back. He's fine as a #5.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

Why Morrow? His ERA is quite bad. And only had one good season.

 

[sobrien]

We have no rotation.

Aimlessly spending money in free agency is not the solution.

We have Hamels and Lee. They shouldn't be building this team around a rotation, they should be building it like the Orioles because we play in an effing bandbox. As fun has having Doc, Lee, Hamels, Oswalt on the same team was...it was a terrible approach given the surroundings and obviously it (and Howard's Achilles) shredded the team's hopes for years.

Something along the lines of
Hamels
Lee
Morrow/McCarthy
Kendrick
J-Will
should get us to a respectable level of play IF we can build up the lineup.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Why Morrow? His ERA is quite bad. And only had one good season.

It's not often you can get free agents with upside. He has great stuff, he's just been hurt and I think moving to the NL would do him good. Won't cost a ton either. Maybe you can pawn him off if he shows well.