OT: Philadelphia Eagles (NFL): Offseason: Kelly vs. Roseman?

[duffy9748]

What happens when Mariota gets hurt or busts and Chip leaves in 2 years?

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

What happens when Mariota gets hurt or busts and Chip leaves in 2 years?

We turn into what's happening with Washington right now. In need of a rebuild with not really much to build around.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Does Mariotta rush the passer, play DB, block for himself, etc. too? If he can't it's not going to get us to where we want to go.

Yeah but if they guy they pick can't do that either, it won't get us where we need to go. I'm fine if they stay put or move up to grab Mariota. Getting Mariota won't make this team a contender immediately, but neither will getting a DB/DL who may or may not be worth a damn (see: Smith, Bunkley, Patterson, Graham, McDougle, etc). Of course, there have been good selections over the past decade or so (Cox, Johnson, Sheppard, Simon, etc), but the bad seem to be much worse than the good are good. That being said, it is clear that having a truly excellent QB is a big part of the recipe for success in the NFL. As is having a good defense.

I am not convinced that simply getting a DB or two in the draft is going to bring the Eagles any closer to a SB than betting the farm on Mariota. Even if the DBs wind up both being pro-bowlers. Mariota is a HUGE gamble. Like ridiculously huge. You are going to give up a ton to get him and very well may be a bust. But at the same time, if he does turn out to be a franchise QB, then it is completely worth it. The problem, as is the case with any gamble, is you won't know until after.

Drafting where we are is not really that much of a gamble, but a gamble nonetheless. Missing out would burn. Getting two star DBs (best case scenario) in the draft would be great. Getting two busts would suck. Sure, surviving the two busts would be easier to overcome than surviving missing out on Mariota + whatever else was given up, but the impact of getting a franchise QB would be bigger than getting two star DBs IMO. It all comes down to whether or not you want to take the risk.

How big are your cojones?

 

[Karma]

As much as I like Mariota, I don't really want the Eagles to give up a ton so they can draft him.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

What happens when Mariota gets hurt or busts and Chip leaves in 2 years?

The same question can be asked about anything. What happens when the second first rounder in a row busts and Chip leaves in 2 years? Now we have the same crappy team but more draft picks...something the team has not had a great track-record in over the last little while (though Cox and Johnson are looking nice, among some others).

 

[YEM]

Does Mariotta rush the passer, play DB, block for himself, etc. too? If he can't it's not going to get us to where we want to go.

Not sure anyone is going to argue against the Eagles trying to upgrade other positions whilst upgrading at the QB position also.

We turn into what's happening with Washington right now. In need of a rebuild with not really much to build around.

St. Louis has been pretty horrendous even w/ getting all those picks from Wash.
Why?
Cause their QB blows. It's a QB centered league.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Not sure anyone is going to argue against the Eagles trying to upgrade other positions whilst upgrading at the QB position also.

If you trade away all these picks for the next couple of years you're going to have a hard time upgrading other positions that's the point.

Brady's been playing great football over the years & the Patroits have won some games & some playoffs rounds but they havent won it all because the defenses haven't been great &/or the weapons around him haven't been great. This year is actually the first year in years their defense hasn't been ranked in the bottom half of total defenses in the league. So even the best in the league isn't a miracle worker.

We would need Mariota to be in the top tier QB off the bat to have even a small chance of winning it all. Andrew Luck didn't even do that & he's was a way better QB prospect than Mariota. Peters & Mathis aren't exactly young neither is Sproles & Mccoy looks to be regressing as is Celek. As the years go on & players get fazed out we'd mostly have to replace them with free agents since we have don't have the picks. We've seen how plugging holes through free agency has worked over the years.

St. Louis has been pretty horrendous even w/ getting all those picks from Wash.
Why?
Cause their QB blows. It's a QB centered league.

No **** they were starting backup caliber QB's & they were in a rebuild with a young team. A lot of those players grew up this year & if they had above average QB play they would have been a lot better of a team. They were very competitive this year even with their QB situation.

Their team is built to where they don't need a superstar QB like the Ravens & Seahawks were in previous seasons. They just need someone who can make some plays here & there while not screwing up.

If & it's a big if Bradford can come back & stay healthy they'll be a lot better of a team next year.

 

[ericWONT]

As much as I like Mariota, I don't really want the Eagles to give up a ton so they can draft him.

Completely agree. Take a look at Washington and RG3. I'm aware it was already mentioned, but the Redskins are a grade A example that put it all into a QB and regardless of how well he turns out, will lose because of lack of overall team depth.

 

[Halladay]

excuse me whilst I peek at the Eagles' last 5 1st round draft picks

yep, gimmie Mariota

5 first round picks for a player that has never player a snap in the NFL...

 

[TheSpectrum]

Some of his performances this year were terrible. But he also showed flashes of brilliance (Eli and Flacco do the same thing). Im all for getting an elite quarterback, problem is they are so hard to find. The Packers got lucky Rodgers fell to them and Seattle also didnt know what they had when they drafted Wilson. Plus, Mariota has never even thrown a pass in the league. Yet so much of this fanbase wants to trade the next 5 years worth for him.

That is why I am ok with them taking a chance on a guy like Hundley or Petty in the 2nd round. I think Chip can mold either guy to perhaps become an elite QB. Both guys appear to have the physical tools to become one

 

[YEM]

If you trade away all these picks for the next couple of years you're going to have a hard time upgrading other positions that's the point.

not necessarily
we didn't do a heck of a lot of upgrading...anywhere with our last 5 1st rounders

We would need Mariota to be in the top tier QB off the bat to have even a small chance of winning it all. Andrew Luck didn't even do that & he's was a way better QB prospect than Mariota.

maybe the worst example you could have come up with
Luck is still in only his 3rd season in the league
and he's gone 11-5 in the regular season each year and hence given his team a chance in the playoffs every year
if you had to bet yr life on whether Luck will ever QB a SB winning team or not...I know what I'd pick

5 first round for a player that has never player a snap in the NFL...

I didn't say that was or should be the deal
but people talk about a 1st round pick like it's a royal egg, from which a pro-bowler will hatch...

 

[ILoveStephanieBrown]

not necessarily
we didn't do a heck of a lot of upgrading...anywhere with our last 5 1st rounders

so because their 1st rnd picks have sucked in the past, they're going to keep on sucking? that doesn't make any sense, especially if you believe that Howie was to blame for those horrible draft choices, including Marcus Smith. it's chip's show now. let's see if anything changes.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

maybe the worst example you could have come up with
Luck is still in only his 3rd season in the league
and he's gone 11-5 in the regular season each year and hence given his team a chance in the playoffs every year
if you had to bet yr life on whether Luck will ever QB a SB winning team or not...I know what I'd pick

I'm talking about Super Bowl's not winning regular season games or making the playoffs. The Eagles window to do so which would still be highly questionable would likely be in those first three years since Peters, Mathis, Barwin, McCoy, Sproles, Celek, etc. aren't getting any younger. How are you going to replace those caliber of players without the picks also how are you to fix the other glaring holes right now without the picks? Saying that haven't done much with their last five picks (although you're discounting two building blocks in Fletcher Cox & Lane Johnson) has no basis since it wasn't the same group of staffs.

It'a tough to say since one the best QB's of all time never won one in Marino but I already know Luck is a top tier QB with his play this year & I know the Colts have the assets to build around him so I'd feel a lot better about it then Mariotta & the Eagles.

 

[YEM]

so because their 1st rnd picks have sucked in the past, they're going to keep on sucking?

that would be a mischaracterization of what I've said
shame on you

I was merely responding to this by pointing out their recent draft adventures in the 1st round: Yet so much of this fanbase wants to trade the next 5 years worth for him.

I'm talking about Super Bowl's not winning regular season games or making the playoffs. The Eagles window to do so which would still be highly questionable would likely be in those first three years since Peters, Mathis, Barwin, McCoy, Sproles, Celek, etc. aren't getting any younger. How are you going to replace those caliber of players without the picks also how are you to fix the other glaring holes right now without the picks? Saying that haven't done much with their last five picks (although you're discounting two building blocks in Fletcher Cox & Lane Johnson) has no basis since it wasn't the same group of staffs.

It'a tough to say since one the best QB's of all time never won one in Marino but I already know Luck is a top tier QB with his play this year & I know the Colts have the assets to build around him so I'd feel a lot better about it then Mariotta & the Eagles.

I agree with a lot of what you write here
However if you possibly get Mariota you've got a decade+ to build around him if he's the real deal...

 

[JoemAvs]

that would be a mischaracterization of what I've said
shame on you

I was merely responding to this by pointing out their recent draft adventures in the 1st round: Yet so much of this fanbase wants to trade the next 5 years worth for him.



I agree with a lot of what you write here
However if you possibly get Mariota you've got a decade+ to build around him if he's the real deal...

Lane and Cox are great building blocks that we acquired over the last three drafts in the first round.

I still don't get it. We are one stupid coaching decision from Chip (not challenging and than kicking a field goal from the 1 yd line) in Arizona away from probably playing (losing to) the Seahawks on Saturday.

We managed to win 10 games with our offensive line being in complete shambles in the first half of the season and starting our backup QB for the other half.

We managed to do it while simultaneously leading the league in Interceptions and while leading the league in fumbles.

We managed to do it with probably the worst secondary in the league.

Special teams played a big part but this team does not need a Mariota to win it all.

We had the 6th ranked offense despite having all those problems.

We need Foles to be more of 2013 Foles than 2014 Foles+ a healthy Oline.
We need to fix our turnover problem.
We need to get a whole new secondary.
We need to improve our Redzone play.
We might need a better defensive coordinator.

We don't need to give up a crazy package for Mariota just because some people might think that this offense could be even better with him.
I doubt it would even be an issue if it were not for the stupid Mariota / Chip connection.

 

[WhiskeyBoarder]

We need to get a whole new secondary.

I agree with your entire post. But what you said about the secondary is especially true. As much as it pains me to say since I met the guy in college, Nate Allen has got to go. I think our CBs are terrible but made to look even worse because they get no support from the safeties.

 

[Halladay]

Malcolm Jenkins is a good player imo, obviously not Dawkins but good enough. Cary Williams is ok too imo, he is just a slefish player who takes dumb penalties.

 

[sa cyred]

Malcolm Jenkins is a good player imo, obviously not Dawkins but good enough. Cary Williams is ok too imo, he is just a slefish player who takes dumb penalties.

I agree with you on Jenkins, but disagree with Cary. Williams plays 50/50 where he can make a great play one play and then look like he doesnt know how to play CB the next. For what, getting paid the 9th highest CB in the league, I think you need a more of a consistent back.

Oh and seriously him complaining what seems like ALL THE TIME, is beyond annoying.

 

[Hiesenberg]

The Jets are, IMO, the team that would take a shot at Mariota and kill Eagles dreams. WIP has been talking about this over and over, after the Jets, there is a slew of teams the Eagles could trade up with and grab.

Wouldn't be surprised if the Eagles had some deals on the table should Mariota fall past #10.

1. Tampa Bay Buccaneers 2-14 - QB
2. Tennessee Titans 2-14 - QB
3. Jacksonville Jaguars 3-13 - No
4. Oakland Raiders 3-13 - No
5. Washington Redskins 4-12 - No
6. New York Jets 4-12 - Biggest concern
7. Chicago Bears 5-11 - Possibly here too
8. Atlanta Falcons 6-10 - No
9. New York Giants 6-10 - No
10. St. Louis Rams 6-10 - Maybe, but unlikely
11. Minnesota Vikings 7-9 - No
12. Cleveland Browns 7-9 - No
13. New Orleans Saints 7-9 - No
14. Miami Dolphins 8-8 - No
15. San Francisco 49ers 8-8 - No
16. Houston Texans 9-7 - Yes
17. San Diego Chargers 9-7 - No
18. Kansas City Chiefs 9-7 - No
19. Cleveland Browns (from Buffalo) 7-9 - No
20. Philadelphia Eagles 10-6
21. Cincinnati Bengals 10-5-1
22. Pittsburgh Steelers 11-5
23. Detroit Lions 11-5
24. Arizona Cardinals 11-5

 

[JDinkalage Morgoone]

Cary Williams is a POS. I like Jenkins.

 

[Flyotes]

Very surprised people have given up on Foles in two years. It smacks of not watching enough football.

I can see why people want Marcus. The Eagles would get better next year perhaps and could fill a lot of holes through FA as they have a good chunk of change plus carry over. He would be able to run Chip's system as it was meant to be, which might be incredible to witness.

That being said, there is an argument for keeping Foles, amending the system which already pours on points but was derailed by injuries, mistakes, etc, and building a well-rounded troop.

I haven't seen enough evidence to say that Foles can't lead this team to a Superbowl, or that he can do so as well. There have been some mediocre QBs to win the Superbowl and there isn't a "must be this way" way of winning it. Shoring up the defense and having Foles figure it out in his third year and this team is easily in discussion for NFC Champion + discussion without mortgaging the future (yet).

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Very surprised people have given up on Foles in two years. It smacks of not watching enough football.

I can see why people want Marcus. The Eagles would get better next year perhaps and could fill a lot of holes through FA as they have a good chunk of change plus carry over. He would be able to run Chip's system as it was meant to be, which might be incredible to witness.

That being said, there is an argument for keeping Foles, amending the system which already pours on points but was derailed by injuries, mistakes, etc, and building a well-rounded troop.

I haven't seen enough evidence to say that Foles can't lead this team to a Superbowl, or that he can do so as well. There have been some mediocre QBs to win the Superbowl and there isn't a "must be this way" way of winning it. Shoring up the defense and having Foles figure it out in his third year and this team is easily in discussion for NFC Champion + discussion without mortgaging the future (yet).

The problem with keeping Foles is pretty much the same problem as trading for Mariota. You have a question mark at QB. One question mark we know can be an average, actual NFL starter (Foles). The other question mark could be far better...or far worse. At the same time, the defense (and some of the offense) needs to be improved as well. Trading away X first rounders doesn't mean we can't improve the defense. Holding on to X first rounders doesn't mean we CAN improve the defense. There is a much higher risk to go after Mariota and figure out the defense/other issues later, but IMO, there is a much bigger reward. There is a much lower risk of sticking with Foles (or another FA/later round draft pick) and using picks to improve the defense, but at the same time, this is the strategy that has been used pretty much by the other 31 NFL teams for the last three decades and does not by any means guarantee you success.

I say go for it. If he fails, he fails. It sucks. Probably does some long-term damage to the team. If he succeeds, everyone is happy and maybe we get to watch a parade (or two).

 

[YEM]

Very surprised people have given up on Foles in two years. It smacks of not watching enough football.

you realize that the eagles coach may be about to "give up" on Foles and I think he outwatches the lot of us on footbawl, right?

 

[Flyotes]

you realize that the eagles coach may be about to "give up" on Foles and I think he outwatches the lot of us on footbawl, right?

Pretty poor argument. I'm old enough to know that fans can have better opinions than coaches, or organizations, and it happens multiple times per year, across the league, across every team. Sometimes it is hard to see one's mistakes when one is internal to the problem, blinded by ego, or the sacrosanct religiosity of being an NFL team full of people who are supposed to be "in the know" and the experts.

What you have is just a fallacious argument from authority.

... and it isn't even clear Kelly has given up on Foles, although they've been very non-committed.

 

[YEM]

Pretty poor argument.

you started w/ a crappy argument:

It smacks of not watching enough football.

... and it isn't even clear Kelly has given up on Foles, although they've been very non-committed.

very true
chip may find himself "stuck" with Foles