Confirmed with Link: Phil Kessel traded - Part III

[Swayze*]

b
c
d
e
f

there's no A

 

[Nithoniniel]

some of these post are sad to see, it seems like some are more fans of kessel than they are fans of the leafs. It reminds me of those bandwagon ''fans'' who follow Lebron james everytime he changes his mind=team

If i have an advice to give to everyone, don't get attached to players, especially flawed ones

Well, it seems to be developing that way in most sports. For example in football (soccer) there's pretty much as many fans of players as there are fans of teams. We've got a huge amount of those here in Sweden, that basically follow Zlatan along and cheer for his teams.

 

[GoonieFace]

Im sure if there was a better offer out there for Kessel, than they would have made that trade. This is obviously the best they could have gotten, and im shocked they actually got this in return. I highly doubt many teams would be interested in trading assets and paying big money to a player like Kessel. Job well done Sahnny and Co.

 

[Swayze*]

Well, it seems to be developing that way in most sports. For example in football (soccer) there's pretty much as many fans of players as there are fans of teams. We've got a huge amount of those here in Sweden, that basically follow Zlatan along and cheer for his teams.

would you ever invite me to Sweden to watch a match together?

 

[hfdshdh]

Here were the teams on Kessel's NTC list: Boston, Chicago, LA, Minnesota, Montreal, NYR, Philly, and Pittsburgh (per Bobby Mac)

Basically, the reason for the lack or market was because there was no chance for a market in the first place. 6 of them are cap strapped playoff locks, Minnesota (pretty much as close to home as possible), and Boston (who he knows would never ever want him back, even with the Sweeney factor). Of all those teams, literally ONE had any interest. For those complaining about not letting a market form, you can't form a market when there is no market to form.

To make matters worse, Pittsburgh's two cap dumps, Scuderi AND Kunitz, both had NTC's of their own and did not have Toronto on their lists. So not only was there literally one trade partner, but they had no cap dumps we could take on because they refused to come here. So basically, the only option was to retain. In the end, Pittsburgh was holding a straight flush and we were holding a nine-high.

Basically, we had 2 options:

1. Trade Kessel to Pittsburgh and get ripped due to the perfect ****storm of circumstances
2. Keep Kessel

And keeping Kessel isn't making some small gamble like people think. Given his contract, keeping Kessel would've been more like playing Russian Roulette with an RPG. Sometimes it's better to cut your losses, bail out and fold than to risk a ****show and making a bad situation cataclysmically worse.

And hey, I hate the return, and I'll admit I was wrong about what he would fetch, but there were a whole slew of circumstances as explained above that almost everyone overlooked and had no idea about that ended up significant in the end.

Basically said what I was trying to say, but way better.

I disagree that we got 'ripped off' though. Like Dubas said yesterday, when trading a player like Phil Kessel, it almost always comes down to quantity for quality. We were never going to get a player equivalent to or better than Kessel in exchange for Kessel. It was always going to be a package of mystery boxes, and given the circumstances, we got some pretty decent mystery boxes. I wasn't streaking up and down Bay Street with a Leafs flag when the trade details leaked out either, but a forward with top six upside, a defenseman with top four upside, a 1st round pick and almost $7M in cap space isn't anything to sneeze at, I don't think.

More than anything I'm just glad this nauseating era of Leafs hockey is coming to a close and we can finally do what we were supposed to do and what everyone was ready to do seven freaking years ago.

 

[Jozay]

How would everyone rank the pieces we've received from the deal in order of value?

Kapenan
2016 conditional 1st (pretty likely to happen)
Harrington
Spaling
3rd

Does that look correct?

B
B (only because its going to be late)
C
D (could turn into a C depending on if we trade him and the return)
D

For

Kessel A
Erixon C
Biggs D
2nd Rounder C (because it will most likely be the pens, so should be late)
1.2 retained B

In My opinion

 

[Daisy Jane]

Here were the teams on Kessel's NTC list: Boston, Chicago, LA, Minnesota, Montreal, NYR, Philly, and Pittsburgh (per Bobby Mac)

Basically, the reason for the lack or market was because there was no chance for a market in the first place. 6 of them are cap strapped playoff locks, Minnesota (pretty much as close to home as possible), and Boston (who he knows would never ever want him back, even with the Sweeney factor). Of all those teams, literally ONE had any interest. For those complaining about not letting a market form, you can't form a market when there is no market to form.

To make matters worse, Pittsburgh's two cap dumps, Scuderi AND Kunitz, both had NTC's of their own and did not have Toronto on their lists. So not only was there literally one trade partner, but they had no cap dumps we could take on because they refused to come here. So basically, the only option was to retain. In the end, Pittsburgh was holding a straight flush and we were holding a nine-high.

Basically, we had 2 options:

1. Trade Kessel to Pittsburgh and get ripped due to the perfect ****storm of circumstances
2. Keep Kessel

And keeping Kessel isn't making some small gamble like people think. Given his contract, keeping Kessel would've been more like playing Russian Roulette with an RPG. Sometimes it's better to cut your losses, bail out and fold than to risk a ****show and making a bad situation cataclysmically worse.

And hey, I hate the return, and I'll admit I was wrong about what he would fetch, but there were a whole slew of circumstances as explained above that almost everyone overlooked and had no idea about that ended up significant in the end.

you are also forgetting the 3 teams that "kicked tires" (Nashville, Florida and Calgary) and didn't like the price, or was going "hmm this looks pretty but I don't need him right now." And the mystery team that wanted the Leafs to retain 3 million. (who could have been one of Nashville, Florida, and Calgary or maybe a Mystery team).

And I think that's what a lot of people aren't seeing (i'm going to write this more in the rebuild thread). What if Phil and Babcock butted heads? Or rather. what would have happened when Phil and Babcock butted heads (I figure if Lidstrom, Yzerman, and Shanahan chafed under Babcock, Kessel would have). then what? Now you have Kessel's contract, a coach, (unlike the other three) would just be "Sure, Phil, whatever you want to do Phil, just score me my goals Phil." that if he didn't like the play (for whatever reason) benched him, scratched him, and it wasn't working. (I'm not even putting into considering how Phil would react).

Basically, Babcock would have put Phil in the same situation that he was always in (go be you Phil, i'll deal with the deficiencies later) - which isn't really the best way to start a new coaching campaign. Or Babcock would have been a hard ass on Phil which doesn't look that hot either.

 

[Nithoniniel]

would you ever invite me to Sweden to watch a match together?

Sure.

If you're not nice, I can always butcher you and get some free meat.

 

[Swayze*]

Sure.

If you're not nice, I can always butcher you and get some free meat.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

B
B (only because its going to be late)
C
D (could turn into a C depending on if we trade him and the return)
D

For

Kessel A
Erixon C
Biggs D
2nd Rounder B (because it will most likely be early, unless its not pur 2nd round pick?)
1.2 retained B

In My opinion

The 2nd is most likely to be Pittsburgh's that we received for Winnik

 

[Nithoniniel]

I can't help being barbaric, it's in my Viking blood

 

[hfdshdh]

you are also forgetting the 3 teams that "kicked tires" (Nashville, Florida and Calgary) and didn't like the price, or was going "hmm this looks pretty but I don't need him right now." And the mystery team that wanted the Leafs to retain 3 million. (who could have been one of Nashville, Florida, and Calgary or maybe a Mystery team).

And I think that's what a lot of people aren't seeing (i'm going to write this more in the rebuild thread). What if Phil and Babcock butted heads? Or rather. what would have happened when Phil and Babcock butted heads (I figure if Lidstrom, Yzerman, and Shanahan chafed under Babcock, Kessel would have). then what? Now you have Kessel's contract, a coach, (unlike the other three) would just be "Sure, Phil, whatever you want to do Phil, just score me my goals Phil." that if he didn't like the play (for whatever reason) benched him, scratched him, and it wasn't working. (I'm not even putting into considering how Phil would react).

Basically, Babcock would have put Phil in the same situation that he was always in (go be you Phil, i'll deal with the deficiencies later) - which isn't really the best way to start a new coaching campaign. Or Babcock would have been a hard ass on Phil which doesn't look that hot either.

From what I've read, it seemed pretty unanimous amongst Wings fans that Babcock and Phil would've clashed bigtime, FWIW.

 

[Jozay]

The 2nd is most likely to be Pittsburgh's that we received for Winnik

I was thinking this may be the case. I will edit the original post.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Again, you can't compare what Kessel puts up on the Pens with Crosby/Malkin as his centre as opposed to what he would have done on the Leafs with Bozak. Apples and oranges. We have to judge how our return does in a Leafs uniform vs what Phil did in a Leafs uniform, and we won't be able to accurately do that for a few years. Obviously Kessel's numbers are going to go up substantially after a subpar season for him with the Leafs, let alone giving him Crosby/Malkin to work with.

I think you can, if Kessel can put up numbers with Kadri, Holland, and Bozak. What can he do with Pittsburg?

As a GM I think you have to project what that player is going to do on another team. In Kessel's case with players 55, 88 and 71.

Knowing Rutherford would be excited seeing Kessel put up big numbers with these guys, has to be part of good Mgt's. The ability to sell this in a deal and max out return. I don't think we held out long enough.

Rutherford put in the concessions and the deadline. He pulled all the strings on this deal. I am pretty sure had we had an experienced GM the outcome would have been different. Everyone is displeased with Burke and Nonis, and yes, they had their faults. But look at their last deals with the Leafs. Both pretty good ones. Schenn for JVR and Franson for the 24th pick. Infact Nonis' last deal was unloading Clarkson's contract. Even better.

You want a comparable trade, Burke was given one team by Kaberle to deal at the deadline. Just 1. He got back a first, a second, and Joe Colborne as return.

 

[ACC1224]

some of these post are sad to see, it seems like some are more fans of kessel than they are fans of the leafs. It reminds me of those bandwagon ''fans'' who follow Lebron james everytime he changes his mind=team

If i have an advice to give to everyone, don't get attached to players, especially flawed ones

Which ones are you referring to?

To me it seems there are more the expected posts from those that hate everything the Team does, they just assume it's bad without really understanding the total implication of the deal.

 

[PuckMagi]

Here were the teams on Kessel's NTC list: Boston, Chicago, LA, Minnesota, Montreal, NYR, Philly, and Pittsburgh (per Bobby Mac)

Basically, the reason for the lack or market was because there was no chance for a market in the first place. 6 of them are cap strapped playoff locks, Minnesota (pretty much as close to home as possible), and Boston (who he knows would never ever want him back, even with the Sweeney factor). Of all those teams, literally ONE had any interest. For those complaining about not letting a market form, you can't form a market when there is no market to form.

To make matters worse, Pittsburgh's two cap dumps, Scuderi AND Kunitz, both had NTC's of their own and did not have Toronto on their lists. So not only was there literally one trade partner, but they had no cap dumps we could take on because they refused to come here. So basically, the only option was to retain. In the end, Pittsburgh was holding a straight flush and we were holding a nine-high.

Basically, we had 2 options:

1. Trade Kessel to Pittsburgh and get ripped due to the perfect ****storm of circumstances
2. Keep Kessel

And keeping Kessel isn't making some small gamble like people think. Given his contract, keeping Kessel would've been more like playing Russian Roulette with an RPG. Sometimes it's better to cut your losses, bail out and fold than to risk a ****show and making a bad situation cataclysmically worse.

And hey, I hate the return, and I'll admit I was wrong about what he would fetch, but there were a whole slew of circumstances as explained above that almost everyone overlooked and had no idea about that ended up significant in the end.

Well said.

People are comparing what we got for Kessel to what we could have got for Kessel if we could have traded him to any of the 29 other teams. If it's true that those were the only 8 teams that he was willing to be traded to, then I think we did reasonably well considering the circumstances. If that was the best offer (looks like it could have been the only offer), then from the Leafs perspective, it's way better to make the deal than to keep Kessel.

Is it possible that we could have still made the trade with Pittsburgh and gotten a better return with a better GM??? Maybe. Maybe not. But at this point, we're splitting hairs and I'm glad we made the deal when the opportunity was there. You never know what could happen. Maybe trades happen and Pittsburgh ends up saying "screw it" and takes some other player instead who they like better that somehow became available. So that was a big risk. Pull the trigger when you can. The risks of us hesitating were huge. I'm not unhappy with the players we got either. It's not like we got garbage back. They're better than most of our current prospects ex: nylander and marner.

 

[Swervin81]

you are also forgetting the 3 teams that "kicked tires" (Nashville, Florida and Calgary) and didn't like the price, or was going "hmm this looks pretty but I don't need him right now." And the mystery team that wanted the Leafs to retain 3 million. (who could have been one of Nashville, Florida, and Calgary or maybe a Mystery team).

And I think that's what a lot of people aren't seeing (i'm going to write this more in the rebuild thread). What if Phil and Babcock butted heads? Or rather. what would have happened when Phil and Babcock butted heads (I figure if Lidstrom, Yzerman, and Shanahan chafed under Babcock, Kessel would have). then what? Now you have Kessel's contract, a coach, (unlike the other three) would just be "Sure, Phil, whatever you want to do Phil, just score me my goals Phil." that if he didn't like the play (for whatever reason) benched him, scratched him, and it wasn't working. (I'm not even putting into considering how Phil would react).

Basically, Babcock would have put Phil in the same situation that he was always in (go be you Phil, i'll deal with the deficiencies later) - which isn't really the best way to start a new coaching campaign. Or Babcock would have been a hard ass on Phil which doesn't look that hot either.

The Preds, Flames, and Panthers were all off Kessel's NTC. Given indications of him wanting to stay here, no chance he'd waive. He put Boston on his list for a reason - he knew that they'd never want him back, so that's one less team he has to worry about being traded to.

But yeah, Babcock and Kessel was an unmitigated disaster waiting to happen. Same old story. After a few weeks, Kessel goes back to his old ways and Babs either lets him off and it becomes another circus or he benches and scratches him and it tanks his value. Babcock's a great coach, but he's not a miracle worker.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Basically said what I was trying to say, but way better.

I disagree that we got 'ripped off' though. Like Dubas said yesterday, when trading a player like Phil Kessel, it almost always comes down to quantity for quality. We were never going to get a player equivalent to or better than Kessel in exchange for Kessel. It was always going to be a package of mystery boxes, and given the circumstances, we got some pretty decent mystery boxes. I wasn't streaking up and down Bay Street with a Leafs flag when the trade details leaked out either, but a forward with top six upside, a defenseman with top four upside, a 1st round pick and almost $7M in cap space isn't anything to sneeze at, I don't think.

Me either. I guess in the 3 choices, Im undecided. We don't know how Kapanen will develop, we don't know how Harrington will play. We don't know who the 1st will be (or how they'll use that for good or evil), and we don't know about the third and I don't know how Spaling will be worked out or flipped.

This is basically, looking at a big swirly ball. and anything can happen. A lot of people are flipping to "the it sucks" side, vs. looking at all the possible out comes. I'm not even going to "and everyone plays amazingly, happily ever after."

We have to make the trade work for us. the Nash trade was Dubinsky, Anisimov, a 1st (who is Rychel, who is always in trade talks it sounds like). that wasn't the best trade in the whole world, for Nash (people still think that).

Dubinsky however - is a big part of Columbus's culture and how they play.
Rychel - will eventually help bring Columbus something that they need (considering Jarmo keeps throwing him out there).
Anisimov was part of the deal that brought Saad to Columbus.


By having Kapanen (and being our third best prospect on forward), it allows us now to have more untouchables within our future. if they all develop on target, you can use the ELCs for our advantage in other trades. It might not happen this year. It might be five years from now with someone else in charge, but that level of protection I think is necessary, because now if someone goes "Sure I can help you but I want Marner/Nylander you can go - well no but we can offer Kapanen..." [if it gets to that point]

we have cap space for years. (even taking into consideration the cap retention). but that cap retention easily could have been cap-dumps that we may - may not be able to trade. So what's better. 1.2 on the cap - or having 3+ million that you can't move period?

six years ago - I didn't like the trade that brought us Phil, but I hoped that the swirly ball of mystery would work out for us - and it really didn't (in where those picks ended up/turned out to be), and how the organization failed to build around Phil.

I'm not sure how to take this deal, but I hope the swirly ball of mystery does us a solid this time.

 

[tokyoite]

If Cherry thinks it's a good trade for the Leafs, it a bad trade in my opinion.
2 prospects and 2 picks is not enough.
Rutherford is laughing at the Leafs right now.

 

[ULF_55]

Personally since Pitts wasn't dealing Pouliot I would have pushed for Brandon Sutter (one of my favourite NHLers) in the trade instead of Nick Spaling.

I was never a Kessel fan as his poor defense -34 tied with Bozak for 2nd worst in the NHL and being on the ice for 82 goals against in 82 games a season hurt the Leafs more than his offense help. When he scores 82 points but was on for 82 goals against (with no PK goals against) only ES and PP SH goals it basically a wash. If Kessel wasn't producing offense he was a complete liability and black hole.

I'm not even so concerned with the return and expected retained salary as well and the biggest issue is breaking up this core group that fails yearly and I'm all in favour of a draft rebuild.

So I'm okay with this as I see it addition by subtraction of moving Kessel out and starting a new era in TO with a clearing the slate situation.

Last summer there was a long debate about Kessel.

Some claimed he was part of the problem, others claimed he was not part of the problem.

Seems Shanahan, Babcock, Hunter and Dubas believed he was part of the problem.

I think they did okay on this deal, but others think they did not.

If they got less than some believe they should have, that would indicate Kessel was considered a large part of the problem, and not part of the solution.

The blow up has commenced.

 

[CHRoNiCWiLL]

If we manage to tank it out this year and win Austin Matthews in the lottery, can we please chant "Thank you Kessel" when he comes to the ACC?

 

[Daisy Jane]

From what I've read, it seemed pretty unanimous amongst Wings fans that Babcock and Phil would've clashed bigtime, FWIW.

exactly. And if I had to put my money on who would come out the victor, It would be the one who drives the Ford F1 truck. (and you knew unlike last time, Management wasn't going to go - meh, screw it, he gets us 80 points let Phil be Phil).

and all of a sudden, people would have gone. "but why didn't we trade Phil in the summer before all of this could have been avoided."

The Preds, Flames, and Panthers were all off Kessel's NTC. Given indications of him wanting to stay here, no chance he'd waive. He put Boston on his list for a reason - he knew that they'd never want him back, so that's one less team he has to worry about being traded to.

But yeah, Babcock and Kessel was an unmitigated disaster waiting to happen. Same old story. After a few weeks, Kessel goes back to his old ways and Babs either lets him off and it becomes another circus or he benches and scratches him and it tanks his value. Babcock's a great coach, but he's not a miracle worker.

Exactly. Phil gave himself basically a NMC in his NTC. even if we waited a year - who exactly would be kicked off Phil's NTC list and would be replaced? and what would the dynamics be then? we're still dealing with a lower end 1st round pick, we're still looking at not the elitest of returns and having to retain - because they are cup teams and most of their cap-dump problems have NMC/NTC and more than likely have Toronto on this list.

I don't get how this could be better a year from now.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

Invaded the Penguin forum; they seem to think that Harrington is the piece most likely to have a full NHL career and is NHL ready today in a bottom pair yes but has a second pairing ceiling

 

[pspot]

I think Spaling will surprise a lot o people. He's a good player in the mold of santorelli

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I think we can all agree Kessel had to go at some point this season.

The ones that think addition by subtraction, any deal would have sufficed.

The ones that think he is a valuable piece on Pittsburg, giving them 3 elite fwds that only a few NHL teams can match, probably have a problem with the return.

Really comes down to this. Could we have done better, did Shanahan error by going into the draft with a GM. The Leafs were the only team to. And what if Kessel is top 5 in scoring, top 3 in scoring to Crosby to start the season.

Then the return of this trade looks far worse.

Kessel had to go, agreed, but imagine if Burke was the one that pulled this deal instead of Shanahan? We all know he would be blasted for it. Shanahan, is being praised by some. Not sure I get this.