Phil Kessel. Trade Watch On? | He's Literally Frozen

[Durrr]

Actually I think the reverse is true, if kessel got to play with Toews in Chicago he would be expected to be more defensively responsible and offense would suffer for the sake of team defense. he would also have less minutes and less PP minutes on the hawks. Usually a good player on a bad team has better offensive stats than he would have on a good team with some depth.

lol wut, he would be on the 1st pp with a norris winning defender who had 60 assists last year, and a PPG center. Kessel's offense would go up on the hawks.

 

[Bravid Nonahan]

Except Kessel is not Hall or Tavares. So whats your point? At this point....you wouldn't get anybody to trade you Tavares for Phil straight up. NO chance. Hall for Kessel maybe. The Leafs would be a bit further ahead cause Hall is cheaper and younger. They would still suck though. Id still do it. Hall plays with that good ole Canadian passion. Probably why he gets injured. Pretty easy to stay healthy when the only time anybody touches you, is when you have your head down. Thats Phil. Cant hit him..because he is either behind the D or he unloads the puck before anybody gets near him.

Sometimes, when one makes a point, it helps to use other situations that are analogous to help make the point.

That's my point.

No one other than you mentioned trading Kessel for those players.

The situations are analogous though - great players on bad teams.

 

[Durrr]

So much stupid in this thread. Everyone knows Kessel is not a complete player people, but this team sucking is not his fault. You should be blaming management for not putting Toews-like and Kieth-like player on this roster to actually have something that resembles a core. Right now we have Kessel and a bunch of people sponging off his talent, yet it's Kessels fault we suck. lul.

Simple as that, you are letting the media dictate how you feel about a certain player and letting them shift the blame from the company who built this team, to a player who was never put in a position to succeed.

 

[613Leafer]

So much stupid in this thread. Everyone knows Kessel is not a complete player people, but this team sucking is not his fault. You should be blaming management for not putting Toews-like and Kieth-like player on this roster to actually have something that resembles a core. Right now we have Kessel and a bunch of people sponging off his talent, yet it's Kessels fault we suck. lul.

Simple as that.

Kadri, Santorelli, Komarov, Winnik, etc have found ways to be effective 5 on 5 players on this team, playing with the same blueline that Kessel plays with. Those guys aren't playing with Toews or Keith either, but their defensive stats are much better than Kessel's, which has made their lines more effective.

 

[Durrr]

Kadri, Santorelli, Komarov, Winnik, etc have found ways to be effective 5 on 5 players on this team, playing with the same blueline that Kessel plays with. Those guys aren't playing with Toews or Keith either, but their defensive stats are much better than Kessel's, which has made their lines more effective.

Cool story man, I wasn't talking about depth players (minus Kadri), because they are never going to make you a winning team without a solid core. Notice how we still lose when Kessel doesn't score? Where are Bozak/JVR/Lupul/Dion/Gardiner/Clarkson right now? For some reason, Kessel seems to be taking the blame for all these scrubs combined. The core ourside of Kessel, and maybe Kadri/JVR is absolutely awful, yet our best player constantly takes the fall when he is carrying the entire team through the good times.

Honestly could care less about Kessel's defensive stats right now, that's not even what I'm talking about, you missed the point entirely in your response.

 

[The Legend]

Yeah...Leafs have been doing a lot of winning with Kessel and Phaneuf as the centerpieces. Can't possibly think of changing things up and break up this dynasty.

The leafs aren't going anywhere with this team, but it's not because of Kessel and Phaneuf. It's because of who is around them.

 

[Durrr]

the leafs aren't going anywhere with this team, but it's not because of kessel and phaneuf. It's because of who is around them.

thank you.

 

[Menzinger]

So much stupid in this thread. Everyone knows Kessel is not a complete player people, but this team sucking is not his fault. You should be blaming management for not putting Toews-like and Kieth-like player on this roster to actually have something that resembles a core. Right now we have Kessel and a bunch of people sponging off his talent, yet it's Kessels fault we suck. lul.

Simple as that, you are letting the media dictate how you feel about a certain player and letting them shift the blame from the company who built this team, to a player who was never put in a position to succeed.

Exactly. Blaming Kessel for the TEAM not doing well is asinine. In today's NHL individual players (save for perhaps a hot goalie) can't lead a team anywhere- it takes an entire CORE to do that. Toews isn't doing it by himself, and neither is Bergeron. Management put the team together and they are the ones who deserve your scorn, not the winger who has done what he always does - score a lot of points.

 

[Durrr]

Exactly. Blaming Kessel for the TEAM not doing well is asinine. In today's NHL individual players (save for perhaps a hot goalie) can't lead a team anywhere- it takes an entire CORE to do that. Toews isn't doing it by himself, and neither is Bergeron. Management put the team together and they are the ones who deserve your scorn, not the winger who has done what he always does - score a lot of points.

It's almost like a foreign concept to some people posting here, yet they still think that it's Kessel's fault that this team will never go anywhere. The entire first line of this team is completely dependent on Kessel, yet all 3 of them are considered "core" players.

 

[Trapper]

So much stupid in this thread. Everyone knows Kessel is not a complete player people, but this team sucking is not his fault. You should be blaming management for not putting Toews-like and Kieth-like player on this roster to actually have something that resembles a core. Right now we have Kessel and a bunch of people sponging off his talent, yet it's Kessels fault we suck. lul.

Simple as that, you are letting the media dictate how you feel about a certain player and letting them shift the blame from the company who built this team, to a player who was never put in a position to succeed.

Do you think this team should make the playoffs?
Do you think the core assembled should at the very least make the playoffs?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Im willing to bet that Kessel's impressive stats would decline if anybody actually asked him to play some defense? His "ironman" streak would come to an end if he actually hit anybody or let anybody hit him to make a play. I like you Gary Nylund. I understand most of your posts but this Kessel love is actually surprising from what seems a fairly smart hockey guy. I'm starting to wonder if you people actually have watched Pat Kane play hockey. He is so not Kessel. Not on any level at all.

Maybe I'm overdoing it a bit. I'm just trying to balance out the irrational hatred of Phil which seems to have reached a new high since Carlyle was dumped.

Phil's nowhere near as bad as some are making him out to be and IMO, Kane is a decent comparable. Of course they are "different" but any two players are different. They also have a fair bit in common - two of the top 5 wingers (for arguments sake) in the NHL who are awesome offensive players but poor defensively. IMO they have roughly equal value and when you consider that Kessel makes 8 million and Kane makes more than 10 million ...

Kessel's biggest drawback is that in order to get the most out of him, he needs his defensive shortcomings "sheltered". Because of this, I understand the argument that this may never happen here so it might make sense to trade him but that doesn't mean I'm willing to give him more than his fair share of blame for the current state of the Leafs. If and when he is traded to a contender, it wouldn't surprise me one bit to see him a Conn Smythe. People who are saying that Kane is a "Conn Smythe calibre" and Phil is some kind of cancer are out to lunch IMO.

Phil is our misfit toy. (I see him as the polka dot elephant)

He is a castaway, but still a good toy.

I do not see why people are now blaming him for this collapse. Yes, he's part of it, but to use his salary as to why he has to produce more is ridiculous. (where are JVR and Bozak?)

Criticize his defense game but don't criticize him personally.

Some of the fan base have been calling him uncoachable, fat, soft and even comparing him to Jian Ghomeshi, this needs to stop.

The character assassination is unreal.

Well put. Agree completely!

Kessel being a better playmaker then Kane? Kane is an actual playmaker who happens to have a good shot as well. Kessel is a sniper who happens to be able to make good passes. But when it comes to dishing the puck around Kane beats Kessel. Most of Kessels assists comes from him shooting the puck towards net and some one slot home the rebound. Or Kessel and one of his linemates goes on a rush and Kessel can use his pace to get ahead of the defense and make a "simple" short pass for a goal. That is not how a playmakers operates. But he do have the technical puck skills to make sweet, hard and accurate passes. You will just rarely see him make saucer passes, passes into empty ice for a teammate to move in to etc. Typical playmakers passes.

LOL no. This is just wrong. Kessel has great vision and is an elite passer.

 

[Purity*]

Exactly. Blaming Kessel for the TEAM not doing well is asinine. In today's NHL individual players (save for perhaps a hot goalie) can't lead a team anywhere- it takes an entire CORE to do that. Toews isn't doing it by himself, and neither is Bergeron. Management put the team together and they are the ones who deserve your scorn, not the winger who has done what he always does - score a lot of points.

This rhetoric just won't stick to the people who want to blame everything wrong with this team on Kessel.

Just look at this for what it is: He's NEVER played with a #1C OR #1D in his entire tenure here. Hell it could even be argued that he's never played with another TOP LINER here. JVR and Lupul are ideally second line wingers away from Phil (IE: Lupul's PPG season with Phil) and we all know how good Bozak's numbers are away from Phil. We haven't provided him with a supporting cast whatsoever. Instead of finding some real help at center and defense, we go ahead and blow our cap space on David Clarkson (who apparantly has all that "character and grit" that Phil lacks ) and lock up Bozak to keep playing with him.

The Kessel detractors need to make no mistake about it, if Patrick Kane played for the Leafs he would be getting equally as much criticism as Phil (especially earlier in his career with his "young wild and free" attitude, he would be absolutely CRUCIFIED for that). The management has utterly screwed this team, Phil has NOTHING TO DO with the ridiculously bad management of this team in the last few years, how he's getting so much blame is completely beyond me.


I'm really glad to see I'm not alone in these opinions about Kessel. The Kessel hate has been beyond rampant these last couple days, reaching completely new levels of irrationality.

 

[Durrr]

Do you think this team should make the playoffs?
Do you think the core assembled should at the very least make the playoffs?

The core is awful, but yes I think we are a wildcard playoff team if coached correctly. The deciding factor for me is ultimately Bernier, if he were to never get injured last season we probably make the playoffs.

 

[Durrr]

This rhetoric just won't stick to the people who want to blame everything wrong with this team on Kessel.

Just look at this for what it is: He's NEVER played with a #1C OR #1D in his entire tenure here. Hell it could even be argued that he's never played with another TOP LINER here. JVR and Lupul are ideally second line wingers away from Phil (IE: Lupul's PPG season with Phil) and we all know how good Bozak's numbers are away from Phil. We haven't provided him with a supporting cast whatsoever. Instead of finding some real help at center and defense, we go ahead and blow our cap space on David Clarkson (who apparantly has all that "character and grit" that Phil lacks ) and lock up Bozak to keep playing with him.

The Kessel detractors need to make no mistake about it, if Patrick Kane played for the Leafs he would be getting equally as much criticism as Phil (especially earlier in his career with his "young wild and free" attitude, he would be absolutely CRUCIFIED for that). The management has utterly screwed this team, Phil has NOTHING TO DO with the ridiculously bad management of this team in the last few years, how he's getting so much blame is completely beyond me.


I'm really glad to see I'm not alone in these opinions about Kessel. The Kessel hate has been beyond rampant these last couple days, reaching completely new levels of irrationality.

Kane beat up a cab driver over 50 cents in his "young and free" days. This media would have torn him up.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

It's almost like a foreign concept to some people posting here, yet they still think that it's Kessel's fault that this team will never go anywhere. The entire first line of this team is completely dependent on Kessel, yet all 3 of them are considered "core" players.

I always say Kessel should not be traded first. Its very possible Jvr gets a player that solidifies the first line. Jvr would be my first move. I think there is some serious value to trading him. Value that improves team structure and future success.

Hopefully nobody asks me who we could get back lol. I would want a young center with size, work ethic, two way game and on a entry level contract. Could be a starting point or a ending point depending on the center.

 

[pcruz]

Kessel being a better playmaker then Kane? Kane is an actual playmaker who happens to have a good shot as well. Kessel is a sniper who happens to be able to make good passes. But when it comes to dishing the puck around Kane beats Kessel. Most of Kessels assists comes from him shooting the puck towards net and some one slot home the rebound. Or Kessel and one of his linemates goes on a rush and Kessel can use his pace to get ahead of the defense and make a "simple" short pass for a goal. That is not how a playmakers operates. But he do have the technical puck skills to make sweet, hard and accurate passes. You will just rarely see him make saucer passes, passes into empty ice for a teammate to move in to etc. Typical playmakers passes.

This post just reeks of the idiocy of the people who bash Kessel for the sake of bashing Kessel.

If you want to complain about the guy because he's the highest paid player, because he doesn't seem to put in maximum effort, because he doesn't fight or crash the boards, because he's not Toews and Bure in one, that's fine. Complain about these things. They're all true.

Kessel needs to be better, put in more consistent effort and be more useful on the defensive side of the puck.

However, the guy has so many strengths where he sits right at the top of the league and even those are diminished by the people who want to bash Kessel for those other things that they actually should complain about.

The best is the people who want to rid themselves of Kessel, but actually believe that other teams don't want to add a player like him. How delusional can someone be to convince themselves of this lunacy?

Look at the team that traded Kessel away. They would kill to have him back right now.

People, Kessel is flawed and he has many aspects where he can improve. Focus on those. Don't look at his strengths and dismiss them just to throw the guy under the bus even more.

 

[pspot]

He's Bargnani

Offensive talent that doesn't feel like he needs to do the other things because it's not his job. He can do things other people can't so why would he have to do the hard things that take away from his ability to do what he's good at.

 

[wmark]

He's Bargnani

Offensive talent that doesn't feel like he needs to do the other things because it's not his job. He can do things other people can't so why would he have to do the hard things that take away from his ability to do what he's good at.

Similar, but he hasn't done a Primo pasta commercial yet.

 

[pcruz]

He's Bargnani

Offensive talent that doesn't feel like he needs to do the other things because it's not his job. He can do things other people can't so why would he have to do the hard things that take away from his ability to do what he's good at.

That's a ridiculous analogy. Bargnani has never utilized his biggest asset (7 ft tall) as an advantage. He has never gone to the basket despite being the size of other centres in the NBA.

Not only that, but he can't do anything other than the shot from range. Can't dribble, can't create plays, doesn't run the offense, and his passing has always been below par.

Offensively speaking, Bargnani is a great shooter from range, and that's largely because of his height so that he doesn't get pressured like smaller players would. Otherwise, he's not a good offensive player.

Kessel is an all-around great offensive player.

Neither is a physical player.

Neither is a decent defender.

 

[JoeyBeans]

blessing my feet

 

[Durrr]

I always say Kessel should not be traded first. Its very possible Jvr gets a player that solidifies the first line. Jvr would be my first move. I think there is some serious value to trading him. Value that improves team structure and future success.

Hopefully nobody asks me who we could get back lol. I would want a young center with size, work ethic, two way game and on a entry level contract. Could be a starting point or a ending point depending on the center.

In that sense I would probably have to disagree, he's not old by any stretch, but I think it's too late to actually start looking to add to a core that solely involves him. We could trade JVR for a center prospect that is 21-22 ish, by the time that player would be hitting his potential (hopefully as a 1C), Kessel will be past 30.

I think any retooling of this team, has to involve the older players first, then Kessel. So this means Bozak, Lupul, Clarkson, Franson, Dion, then Kessel. Thats just my opinion of course, but it's long over due that Bozak and Lupul were traded for younger assets.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

The leafs aren't going anywhere with this team, but it's not because of Kessel and Phaneuf. It's because of who is around them.

How many coaches do you need to see? How many defencemen do you need to see? How many roster overhauls do you need to see? How many more years do you need to witness? You don't think that the top players on the team have the greatest impact on the teams success or failures? Haven't they tried swapping out support cast...didnt they get rid of Grabovski, Kulemin MacA...bringing in JVR, Clarkson etc..

They swapped out coaches, asst coaches, Gms and assts, they got a new goalie and they got a whole new bottom six. They have had a plethora of different roster players both on D and F since both these "leaders" arrived.

Why are you guys so attached to these players. I just don't understand. What have they accomplished exactly? One playoff performance in 5 years theyve been around? A first round exit in a shortened season? Who do these guys need around them exactly? And where are these great players coming from?

If by your own admission, the supporting cast is not good enough..you think that GMs will give up players who are good enough in exchange for these guys who aren't? Phaneuf and Kessel make a combined 15M per year. These guys aren't "cheap" stars by any stretch of the imagination.

When the team is in constant change and nothing changes...perhaps its time to look at those players who have been constants in the system since the beginning of this "re-tool" or whatever the hell it is.

Its only makes sense. Have you guys never troubleshooted anything? You replace something and nothing changes..you just don't keep replacing the same part. You try and replace different parts.

Rocket Science 101.

 

[AustonMitchWilly]

Phil Kessel Is Not The Problem

Well that did not take long; it took less than a day for the Toronto media to pinpoint the cause of Carlyle’s dismissal from the Toronto Maple Leafs. It should not have been difficult it was standing right in front of them the whole time; it was clearly the Leafs leading scorer, Phil Kessel. Now let that sink in again, a guy who has not missed a game for the blue and white since he recovered from a shoulder injury....

Read more in the link:

http://corsihockeyleague.com/2015/01/08/phil-kessel-is-not-the-problem/


Discuss

 

[CDN24]

What? Is Kane expected to forgo all offense to play better defensively? Obviously Kessel would be expected to buy into the system, but Kessel would be playing with one of the best two way practically ppg center in the league. Your under estimating the overall quantity that Toews brings when compared to a meh center who's never reached 50 points in his career. Kessel's numbers would undoubtedly improve. Also, one of the best goal scorers in the league having less PP time? What? Why exactly is that?

lol wut, he would be on the 1st pp with a norris winning defender who had 60 assists last year, and a PPG center. Kessel's offense would go up on the hawks.

Kessel's offense would not go up on the hawks, it would go down as he would have to play defense or find his ass nailed to the bench. Hawks have depth, there are plenty of talented guys who can and will play 2 way hockey to give those choice minutes too if Phill can't or won't play 2 way hockey. Offensively Hossa is better than Phil. He has scored 40 goals before. He won't do it again as the Hawks system is defense first and back to my first point in that system wins go up but offensive numbers go down.

I am not underestimating what Toews brings. Best center in the league in my opinion- yes better than that 87 guy. Toews brings 2 way hockey. he is not a top point producer but he is a win producer. Who is the point a game center that Durr talks about- can't be Toews as he only ever hit a point a game once 48 in 47 games in lockout shortened season.

Generally truely great teams do not have the top point getters. All those hab dynasties rarely had the top offensive guys in the league. same with recent cup winners (Hawks, kings, bruins etc) Only exception seems to be the generational talents like Gretzky, Lemieux and last time I checked the Thrill was not in their league.

What happenned to yzermans offensive numbers when Bowman asked him to play 2 way hockey? Way down but is jewlery collection was augmented. If the Hawks were to make the blunder of the century and trade their PK for Toronto's, either kessels point production goes down or he gets dropped off the first line.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Good article.