Confirmed Trade: [PHI/STL] Brayden Schenn to Blues for Lehtera, the 27th pick and a future 1st rounder

[mja]

This PP narrative is so incredibly false, it's become comical.

Except if you've actually watched the dude play for 6 seasons. This isn't a new narrative created because he was dealt. There are plenty of Schenn threads on the Flyers forum that go back years. Go take a gander at them.

 

[Winston Wolf]

This PP narrative is so incredibly false, it's become comical.

The truth is that all of the Flyers have sucked 5 on 5 for a while, outside of Couturier. I'm not saying that Schenn is to blame for that, as everyone deserves some blame, but he was a significant part of it. Schenn has always been the hardest guy to fit into the top 6 even strength, as he had a hard time meshing with anyone. The only player he really meshed well with was Couturier, but for some reason the coaches were always hesitant to play them together. The end of this last year they played together even strength and Schenn produced as well even strength as he ever has in his career. I think his numbers will improve playing on a better even strength team, but thus far in his career he hasn't done much even strength.

You can say it's a myth that Schenn produces at a higher than normal amount on the PP, but that doesn't make it false. Over 40% of his career goals are on the PP. I would imagine very few career 100+ goal scorers are that reliant on the PP.

 

[Curufinwe]

In the grand scheme of things, two late firsts is not a great return. The chances of finding a top 4 or top 6 forwards are likely less than 50/50.

27th OA picks from 00-13

Martin Samuelson, Jeff Woywitka, Mike Morris, Jeff Tambellini, Jeff Schultz, Joe Finley, Ivan Vishnevsky, Brendan Smith, John Carlson, Phil Paradis, Mark Visentin, Vlad Namestnikov, Henrik Samuelson, Marko Dano.

But yes, I'm a hater lol

What other teams did with that pick in other years is irrelevant. It's the same stupid argument people used to bash the Coburn trade because the Flyers "only" got the 29th pick in the 1st round.

 

[Starat327]

That just means Schenn is an exceptional power play performer. Not that he is poor or "lacking" at even strength.

Schenn had one more point than Giroux at even strength last season. The year before, Giroux had one more point than Schenn at even strength. So they are tied for the past two years.

Overall, Schenn has been 3rd on the Flyers in even strength points each of the last two years.

You don't put up 55-60 points in back to back seasons without having some ability to produce at 5 on 5.

Comparing 5v5 Production to Giroux is a fallacy, lol. The team, especially this year, was abysmal at 5v5. I never hated Schenn, but i was certainly open to moving him, as he is more of a complimentary piece, imo.

Very few, if any, are claiming Schenn is a bad player. As you said, he is a 55-60 point winger, and that isnt as common as it used to be. But half of your points doesn't scream 5v5 production to me. He also isnt this "lol, flyers traded him for late picks, lol?!?" type of player that people are insinuating by getting the return they got.

Reading over the thread, it seems like he's going to be exactly what STL needs him to be, and he just brought in some much needed young forward prospects (without know what we draft with the other 1st for) for the flyers - and that's all that really matters.

 

[Baemon Severson*]

What other teams did with that pick in other years is irrelevant. It's the same stupid argument people used to bash the Coburn trade because the Flyers "only" got the 29th pick in the 1st round.

It's not the end all be all but it certainly isn't irrelevant

 

[Starat327]

This has probably been discussed, what are the conditions on the 2018 first?

Top 10 protected. If the Blues get pick 1-10 next year, they can defer to 2019. If they do, they surrender an additional 3rd round.

 

[Starat327]

It's not the end all be all but it certainly isn't irrelevant

Yeah, what a shame it would be if the Flyers were able to find more players like Claude Giroux and Mike Richards in the later part of the draft.

 

[Halak Ness Monster]

Comparing 5v5 Production to Giroux is a fallacy, lol. The team, especially this year, was abysmal at 5v5. I never hated Schenn, but i was certainly open to moving him, as he is more of a complimentary piece, imo.

Not sure what makes it a fallacy. We're talking 164 games. Not a small sample size at all.

Context is crucial. Schenn was third on the Flyers at even strength for 2 years and performed just as well as your best forward. You can say the team sucks but don't heap an unwarranted percentage of the blame on one player. Especially one that is keeping pace with the rest of your stars in terms of production.

Overall, though, you make the right point. It's a good trade for both sides. Even if Schenn is just a solid 5 on 5 guy and an exceptional power player performer, that's what we need.

 

[Starat327]

Not sure what makes it a fallacy. We're talking 164 games. Not a small sample size at all.

Context is crucial. Schenn was third on the Flyers at even strength for 2 years and performed just as well as your best forward. You can say the team sucks but don't heap an unwarranted percentage of the blame on one player. Especially one that is keeping pace with the rest of your stars in terms of production.

Overall, though, you make the right point. It's a good trade for both sides. Even if Schenn is just a solid 5 on 5 guy and an exceptional power player performer, that's what we need.

I even stated in another post that i think the bolded plays a part. The fallacy is that our best players also relatively sucks at 5v5. Saying he's 3rd best at 5v5 production is like saying you are the Oilers of a few years ago best defenseman (sorry, EDM fans!). It just doesnt hold a lot of weight in context, that's all.

 

[mja]

Yeah, what a shame it would be if the Flyers were able to find more players like Claude Giroux and Mike Richards in the later part of the draft.

They may just have to settle for players like Travis Konecny, Justin Williams, and Simon Gagne.

 

[Oberyn]

Schenn's point totals the last four years:

2013-14: 41 points, 32 at even strength
2014-15: 47 points, 28 at even strength
2015-16: 59 points, 37 at even strength
2016-17: 55 points, 27 at even strength

Aside from last season, his even strength numbers seem to be fine. Not to mention, 50% of Simmond's points last season were on the PP. Is he a PP specialist too?

 

[stl76]

Never been happier to have a one dimensional wannabe center who can only score on PP on the Blues.

 

[Starat327]

They may just have to settle for players like Travis Konecny, Justin Williams, and Simon Gagne.

Yeah, when your only recent misses in late round picks are Scott Laughton - who you could argue still probably has this year to make something happen, and Jeff Wowyitka, but youve produced players like Richards, Giroux, Williams, Gagne, Konecny, and Boucher in that time frame, i'd feel comfortable with it.

But, I guess its hard to remain objective when pushing an agenda.

 

[Starat327]

Schenn's point totals the last four years:

2013-14: 41 points, 32 at even strength
2014-15: 47 points, 28 at even strength
2015-16: 59 points, 37 at even strength
2016-17: 55 points, 27 at even strength

Aside from last season, his even strength numbers seem to be fine. Not to mention, 50% of Simmond's points last season were on the PP. Is he a PP specialist too?

The whole team is PP specialists, particularly last year. Feel free to gander at Flyers threads, you'll see that this isnt a new thing just because we traded him.

 

[carter333167]

Can't believe people are still arguing about a win-win trade.

Armstrong really wanted to upgrade Lehtera and the Pens trade made doing so possible without sacrificing the desire to get Klostin. Flyers get a really nice futures return for downgrading from Schenn to Lehtera.

 

[phlocky]

Its top 10 protected, but its not automatic. The Blues could opt to still give up the 9th pick (for example) or choose to draft someone and give up the next year's first and a 3rd the following year.

Well, to be fair, we don't know the exact wording of how the trade went down with the league. All we have are what certain "insiders" reported it as and THEIR wording is a bit ambiguous. I'm not exactly certain either. They way it's been reported it could be that if it's top 10 then the Flyers don't get a first at all (highly unlikely), it could be that the pick automatically get pushed a year (and possibly a second year), it could be that if it's NOT a top 10 pick than it's the Flyers pick automatically, and it could be that if it's top 10 it's automatically pushed but even if it's an 11-31 pick that the Blues have the OPTION of pushing the pick. Again, what the Insiders reported is a bit ambiguous

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Schenn's point totals the last four years:

2013-14: 41 points, 32 at even strength
2014-15: 47 points, 28 at even strength
2015-16: 59 points, 37 at even strength
2016-17: 55 points, 27 at even strength

Aside from last season, his even strength numbers seem to be fine. Not to mention, 50% of Simmond's points last season were on the PP. Is he a PP specialist too?

Pretty much, yeah. He's dangerous in front of the net.

Part of the reason why I want Simmonds gone eventually (so other teams don't realize it). Tee-hee.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Well, to be fair, we don't know the exact wording of how the trade went down with the league. All we have are what certain "insiders" reported it as and THEIR wording is a bit ambiguous. I'm not exactly certain either. They way it's been reported it could be that if it's top 10 then the Flyers don't get a first at all (highly unlikely), it could be that the pick automatically get pushed a year (and possibly a second year), it could be that if it's NOT a top 10 pick than it's the Flyers pick automatically, and it could be that if it's top 10 it's automatically pushed but even if it's an 11-31 pick that the Blues have the OPTION of pushing the pick. Again, what the Insiders reported is a bit ambiguous

What's been reported isn't ambiguous at all. It's actually super-detailed:

- If Blues pick 11 and above, it's ours in 2018. If the Blues pick between 1-10, they have the right to keep their pick for 2018, but can still give it to us. If they choose to keep it, it gets pushed back to 2019 and we get a 3rd round pick in 2020 in addition to their 2019 pick.

 

[Larry44]

Well, to be fair, we don't know the exact wording of how the trade went down with the league. All we have are what certain "insiders" reported it as and THEIR wording is a bit ambiguous. I'm not exactly certain either. They way it's been reported it could be that if it's top 10 then the Flyers don't get a first at all (highly unlikely), it could be that the pick automatically get pushed a year (and possibly a second year), it could be that if it's NOT a top 10 pick than it's the Flyers pick automatically, and it could be that if it's top 10 it's automatically pushed but even if it's an 11-31 pick that the Blues have the OPTION of pushing the pick. Again, what the Insiders reported is a bit ambiguous

Not sure if NHL.COM is considered an insider:

https://www.nhl.com/news/flyers-deal-brayden-schenn-to-blues-for-jori-lehtera-picks/c-290097928?tid=278542340

The Blues have the option to defer the 2018 pick to 2019 if it is in the top 10.

Acc to CSN Philly

http://www.csnphilly.com/philadelphia-flyers/flyers-trade-brayden-schenn-blues-no-27-morgan-frost-jori-lehtera-additional

As for the 2018 pick, if it falls in the top 10, St. Louis has the option to defer to its 2019 first-round pick. If the Blues decide to do so, as a result, the Flyers also receive St. Louis' third-round pick in 2020.

 

[Curufinwe]

Yeah, when your only recent misses in late round picks are Scott Laughton - who you could argue still probably has this year to make something happen, and Jeff Wowyitka, but youve produced players like Richards, Giroux, Williams, Gagne, Konecny, and Boucher in that time frame, i'd feel comfortable with it.

But, I guess its hard to remain objective when pushing an agenda.

The other point is, whatever pick they get from St Louis next year, Hextall can use it to trade up. That was what made all the arguments on our board about "only" getting #29 in 2015 so pointless.

Let's say St Louis get the 24th overall pick and the Flyers get the 13th overall (but don't win the lottery this time). How high do those two picks get you?

 

[Starat327]

The other point is, whatever pick they get from St Louis next year, Hextall can use it to trade up. That was what made all the arguments on our board about "only" getting #29 in 2015 so pointless.

Let's say St Louis get the 24th overall pick and the Flyers get the 13th overall (but don't win the lottery this time). How high do those two picks get you?

Exactly. I don't know anything about the 18 or 19 classes (whereever the pick falls), but i do expect them to use it as bait to acquire someone they like, as opposed to using it on someone that they view as a stretch.

Making a trade with Vegas in 18 may make sense, if, in your scenario, they get like 6-9 pick, and are comfortable moving back to 13 and picking up 24 as well.

 

[saxonmiller]

I love Schenn, and man did the Central get a bit spicier. Jets v Blues games are amongst the most entertaining in the league, and after this I can't wait for the season series.

Will be rockin'.

 

[2 Minute Minor]

Well, to be fair, we don't know the exact wording of how the trade went down with the league. All we have are what certain "insiders" reported it as and THEIR wording is a bit ambiguous. I'm not exactly certain either. They way it's been reported it could be that if it's top 10 then the Flyers don't get a first at all (highly unlikely), it could be that the pick automatically get pushed a year (and possibly a second year), it could be that if it's NOT a top 10 pick than it's the Flyers pick automatically, and it could be that if it's top 10 it's automatically pushed but even if it's an 11-31 pick that the Blues have the OPTION of pushing the pick. Again, what the Insiders reported is a bit ambiguous

I'm taking this from Armstrong's interview where he explained it. I think he was pretty clear in his language.

 

[Hivemind]

Not to mention, 50% of Simmond's points last season were on the PP. Is he a PP specialist too?

Yes.

 

[Larry44]

FWIW, Brayden was told he's playing centre.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/Flyers-Brayden-Schenn-getting-over-shock-of-being-dealt-by.html

With St. Louis, he is expected to move back to his natural position, center, and could be on the Blues’ top line.

“They told me they’ll give me an opportunity at center, so I’m excited,” he said. “They have a lot of skilled forwards there, obviously, in [Vladimir] Tarasenko and [Jaden] Schwartz and [Alex] Steen. The list goes on and on. They obviously have a great team and I’m looking forward to it. It’s a great opportunity. I’ve been looking forward to playing center for the past little while, and if I get a chance to do that in St. Louis, I’m going to take it and run with it.”