PGA and LIV Golf rivalry begins (and ends, merger announced in June, 2023)

[Look Up]

And now there's this.

PGA Tour under anti-trust investigation.

DOJ Probes PGA Tour Over Its Tactics Against Saudi-Backed LIV Golf | ZeroHedge

 

[GoBuds14]

Without fully understanding the political/moral decision that this appears to be involving the Saudi's I will stay away from that talk and focus on my perspective as a fan. I don't know enough about Human rights, sportwashing or whatever.

#1 - This is all about the money for the players. Growing the game seems like a bit of a ridiculous statement. It waters down the product and is dividing the worlds best players into two factions.

#2 - I don't blame the players for wanting a secure paycheque. Case in point is Brooks. The guy has been battling injuries. The guaranteed money is too much to pass up, considering his earning potential is shrinking on the PGA tour.

#3 - LIV, regardless of who signs, does NOT interest me in the slightest. I checked out a bit of the first event on Youtube and the broadcast lacked that extra spark you get from watching the PGA tour.

#4 - Sure, the Saudi's have an endless pocket of money, but I do not see this tour surviving unless they make changes to the format. Even if they sign Tiger, Rory, JT, Speith and the rest of Golf's elite, the format will still suck. 54 holes, no cut line, Shotgun start (lol), those ridiculous teams, are all just stupid.

***I know the PGA just announced 8 tournaments with no cut line, but the cut line is essentially the Fedex cup standings...something totally different than the exhibition LIV is putting on*****

#5 - Majors, are going to be a problem for LIV members. If they don't get voted into OWGR system, than many of their players will not earn spots into future Majors. It will perpetuate the meaninglessness of the LIV golf events. They can try to fabricate some history or huge money events, or whatever they want, but golf is a traditionalist sport, and without the tie in to the Majors, LIV will mean much less. Add to that, I really think playing in the format that LIV promotes and the few tournaments a year, will hurt the rhythm of players like DJ and Brooks that have exemptions for the Majors. They will then struggle at Majors, perpetuating the narrative of the pro PGA crowd that the LIV has inferior golfers.

#6 - in order to truly shake any monkey off its back, LIV needs a legitimate superstar to win a Major and get players talking. Maybe that young Thai kid, or Piot can sneak in there and win a Major, become the next big thing. That would be what could get LIV over the top. Phil should be playing the senior circuit, DJ is on the downswing, Bryson is a freakshow long drive hitter, Brooks doesn't particularly care for the sport, Reed is a douchebag, Sergio is too pouty, Poulter wears funny pants, McDowell is a cool guy at the end of his career, Louis, Charl, whatever....not enough to get me fired up.

#7 - I give it two years...in two years, some of the more competitive players will be on the outside looking in at Majors. They will be losing sponsorship money. There will be rumblings of a return to the PGA. Two full years and this thing folds and Greg Norman is fired into the sun.

Those are my 7 cents on the LIV.

Agree, I’m open to the idea of a rival tour (although would prefer the PGA tour as is), but the LIV format is such a swing and a miss. The PGA tour does business with China, and half the player are sponsored by companies that likely have human rights issues associated with the making of their products, therefore the source of the money isn’t my issue. My issue is the shotgun start, 54 holes, and the team part brings nothing extra to the viewers. Maybe the best part of a golf tournament is watching the final 4-5 groups come down 18 with a chance to win. The shotgun start completely takes away from that, the winning player might win on hole 12, that’s silly. 54 holes is very meh as well, that’s basically the players wanting more money for less work, to each their own I guess.

 

[LadyStanley]

DOJ investigating PGA Tour's actions toward LIV

The investigation's focus is on the PGA Tour's actions regarding the Official World Golf Ranking, warnings it has issued to players who were contemplating joining LIV Golf and player suspensions, agents told ESPN's Mark Schlabach.

www.espn.com

ESPN story on DOJ investigation

 

[Bluto]

Man how ironic.
Golfers are the bad guys for taking money from a brutal dictatorship.... but our politicians receive no blame for gifting them all of their military infrastructure for kickbacks? Not to mention our president is currently sucking the toe of their dictator for more oil...

But yeah the golfers are the bad guys.

 

[AcerComputer]

DOJ investigating PGA Tour's actions toward LIV

The investigation's focus is on the PGA Tour's actions regarding the Official World Golf Ranking, warnings it has issued to players who were contemplating joining LIV Golf and player suspensions, agents told ESPN's Mark Schlabach.

www.espn.com

ESPN story on DOJ investigation

I saw this coming a mile away. I hope the PGA gets the book thrown at them.

 

[Voight]

Man how ironic.
Golfers are the bad guys for taking money from a brutal dictatorship.... but our politicians receive no blame for gifting them all of their military infrastructure for kickbacks? Not to mention our president is currently sucking the toe of their dictator for more oil...

But yeah the golfers are the bad guys.

& companies will gladly take their money when they want to invest.

 

[IU Hawks fan]

Charles Barkley is confident LIV Golf will have a TV deal before the end of this year

Charles Barkley told Dan Patrick he thinks a LIV Golf TV deal is coming. "I think they will get a deal by the end of this year."

awfulannouncing.com

CBS, NBC and Disney/ESPN already have TV deals with the PGA Tour, making them unlikely to also partner with LIV. And considering Barkley has stated he might need to exit TNT if he joins LIV, Turner Sports doesn’t appear keen on doing business with the Saudi-backed league. By process of elimination, Fox is the most logical destination, despite already balking at a deal earlier this year.

 

[daver]

I saw this coming a mile away. I hope the PGA gets the book thrown at them.

So your moral line in the sand is that millionaire golfers are potentially being held back from making even more money?

No opinion on the obvious "sportswashing"?

 

[LadyStanley]

Paywall. Athletic's take on LIV Golf and the money/power behind it

 

[Voight]

Norman: LIV's offer to Tiger in $700-$800M range

LIV Golf CEO Greg Norman, in an interview that aired Monday night, confirmed that Tiger Woods turned down an offer between $700 million and $800 million when approached to join the Saudi-backed golf league.

www.espn.com

Wasn't surprising that he turned them down; falls just short of the 1 billion figure some were throwing around.

 

[LadyStanley]

Phil Mickelson, 10 LIV golfers file an antitrust lawsuit against PGA Tour

Three of the golfers party to the suit claim they should be able to compete in the upcoming PGA Tour's FedEx Cup Playoffs.

www.axios.com

10 golf players file PGA for antitrust

 

[LadyStanley]

Judge rules three LIV players will not be permitted to join FedEx Cup playoffs

A U.S. District Court judge has ruled that LIV Golf players will not be permitted to join the PGA Tour's playoffs.

news.yahoo.com

3 golfers not permitted into FedEx playoffs

 

[daver]

Interesting news from the hearing.

Stunning new details about LIV Golf contracts should give bettors serious pause

Players may have already been paid the money they’re supposed to be competing for.

ftw.usatoday.com

Pretty much eliminates any reason to believe that this is a "competitive" tour that rivals the PGA.

 

[LadyStanley]

Mickelson, 3 others drop out of PGA Tour lawsuit

Mickelson was the lead plaintiff and the name for which the case is known as, Mickelson v. PGA Tour.

theathletic.com

Paywall. More players drop out of lawsuit.

 

[LadyStanley]

PGA Tour countersues LIV Golf

The PGA Tour accused LIV of tortiously interfering with the tour’s contracts with golfers who defected to the upstart league.

theathletic.com

Paywall. PGA countersuing

 

[Djp]

Without fully understanding the political/moral decision that this appears to be involving the Saudi's I will stay away from that talk and focus on my perspective as a fan. I don't know enough about Human rights, sportwashing or whatever.

#1 - This is all about the money for the players. Growing the game seems like a bit of a ridiculous statement. It waters down the product and is dividing the worlds best players into two factions.

#2 - I don't blame the players for wanting a secure paycheque. Case in point is Brooks. The guy has been battling injuries. The guaranteed money is too much to pass up, considering his earning potential is shrinking on the PGA tour.

#3 - LIV, regardless of who signs, does NOT interest me in the slightest. I checked out a bit of the first event on Youtube and the broadcast lacked that extra spark you get from watching the PGA tour.

#4 - Sure, the Saudi's have an endless pocket of money, but I do not see this tour surviving unless they make changes to the format. Even if they sign Tiger, Rory, JT, Speith and the rest of Golf's elite, the format will still suck. 54 holes, no cut line, Shotgun start (lol), those ridiculous teams, are all just stupid.

***I know the PGA just announced 8 tournaments with no cut line, but the cut line is essentially the Fedex cup standings...something totally different than the exhibition LIV is putting on*****

#5 - Majors, are going to be a problem for LIV members. If they don't get voted into OWGR system, than many of their players will not earn spots into future Majors. It will perpetuate the meaninglessness of the LIV golf events. They can try to fabricate some history or huge money events, or whatever they want, but golf is a traditionalist sport, and without the tie in to the Majors, LIV will mean much less. Add to that, I really think playing in the format that LIV promotes and the few tournaments a year, will hurt the rhythm of players like DJ and Brooks that have exemptions for the Majors. They will then struggle at Majors, perpetuating the narrative of the pro PGA crowd that the LIV has inferior golfers.

#6 - in order to truly shake any monkey off its back, LIV needs a legitimate superstar to win a Major and get players talking. Maybe that young Thai kid, or Piot can sneak in there and win a Major, become the next big thing. That would be what could get LIV over the top. Phil should be playing the senior circuit, DJ is on the downswing, Bryson is a freakshow long drive hitter, Brooks doesn't particularly care for the sport, Reed is a douchebag, Sergio is too pouty, Poulter wears funny pants, McDowell is a cool guy at the end of his career, Louis, Charl, whatever....not enough to get me fired up.

#7 - I give it two years...in two years, some of the more competitive players will be on the outside looking in at Majors. They will be losing sponsorship money. There will be rumblings of a return to the PGA. Two full years and this thing folds and Greg Norman is fired into the sun.

Those are my 7 cents on the LIV.

on your comments…..

#1 players want some baseline guarantee money to play tournaments. This cause problems between established vs start up players. The initial idea drew comparisons to the soccer/ football super League proposal of the haves and have nots.

#2. Sure something could be done with the players if injuredon long term injury. Right now they do not lose their tour card. They get its term restored before they return. They coukd put together an injury fund and a player pension program.

#3 the concept of LIValready existed…that’s what the majors, players, and WGC events did. It brings the best of the world together.

#4. The WGCscand later playoffs don’t have cut lines. Those they need to limit the field Size. In tournaments they coukd make expanded fields where they play 2 rounds over Wed-Fri playing an am and pm segmentthen finish with 2 on weekend.

#5-7. How does world rankings judge the LIV tour in scoring and ranking players. Players get less credit playing on secondary tours like the Asia tour. The question is raised given the smaller field…how good are they really?

in a lot of ways it’s like college football when teams mainly play within conference but there isn’t much between conference play so how can you fairly score them without pts looking at school reputation. This week in college football Kansas univ is 4-0. It’s known as great basketball and crud footballl. Based on that reputation they didn’t get many votes as did Florida state because Florida state has a better reputation.

Interesting news from the hearing.

Stunning new details about LIV Golf contracts should give bettors serious pause

Players may have already been paid the money they’re supposed to be competing for.

ftw.usatoday.com

Pretty much eliminates any reason to believe that this is a "competitive" tour that rivals the PGA.

this was already believed. Players were give up front money to play which disincentives them to win things. It’s a de facto appearance fee. That loses the incentive in playing.

we see this many times in other sports when they sign a new contract after they grinder out the last season to get a better pay day.

 

[waitin425]

on your comments…..

#1 players want some baseline guarantee money to play tournaments. This cause problems between established vs start up players. The initial idea drew comparisons to the soccer/ football super League proposal of the haves and have nots.

#2. Sure something could be done with the players if injuredon long term injury. Right now they do not lose their tour card. They get its term restored before they return. They coukd put together an injury fund and a player pension program.

#3 the concept of LIValready existed…that’s what the majors, players, and WGC events did. It brings the best of the world together.

#4. The WGCscand later playoffs don’t have cut lines. Those they need to limit the field Size. In tournaments they coukd make expanded fields where they play 2 rounds over Wed-Fri playing an am and pm segmentthen finish with 2 on weekend.

#5-7. How does world rankings judge the LIV tour in scoring and ranking players. Players get less credit playing on secondary tours like the Asia tour. The question is raised given the smaller field…how good are they really?

in a lot of ways it’s like college football when teams mainly play within conference but there isn’t much between conference play so how can you fairly score them without pts looking at school reputation. This week in college football Kansas univ is 4-0. It’s known as great basketball and crud footballl. Based on that reputation they didn’t get many votes as did Florida state because Florida state has a better reputation.






this was already believed. Players were give up front money to play which disincentives them to win things. It’s a de facto appearance fee. That loses the incentive in playing.

we see this many times in other sports when they sign a new contract after they grinder out the last season to get a better pay day.

#3 - LIV is nothing like the Majors, players or WGC.

#4 - The WGC's and Playoffs, do in fact have cut lines. They are cut prior to the tournament based on their season performance. It is a performance based limited field. LIV selects players for the tournaments based on what exactly?

With regards to World Rankings and whether LIV should be awarded rankings. Despite the obvious issues the biggest one I have is the fact that players seem to be selected to play on their tour based on notoriety. Case in point Hennie du Plessis. After 3 events in LIV he was 6th in money and 9th in their order of merit. He was cut for the fourth tournament to make way for the new batch of players. Makes the order of merit, seem somewhat meritless doesn't it?

How can the OWGR provide ranking points to a tour that claims to have merit when their players are awarded spots in their tournaments based on the merit of their popularity alone and not their performance?

Before you jump in their with sponsor exemptions etc on the PGA, their system is far more refined and merit based. Meant to truly grow the game and develop talent.

After however many tournaments thus far, I still fail to see how LIV is going to establish any sort of following in NA. I am not so convinced that Asia and Australia don't jump on board. But, then the question will be....does the investment generate a proper return? The Saudis don't seem to care either way. The player in LIV have made their choice....time for them to move on from the PGA....move on from OWGR....and unless they have a previous exemption....move on from the Majors.

 

[Djp]

#3 - LIV is nothing like the Majors, players or WGC.

#4 - The WGC's and Playoffs, do in fact have cut lines. They are cut prior to the tournament based on their season performance. It is a performance based limited field. LIV selects players for the tournaments based on what exactly?

With regards to World Rankings and whether LIV should be awarded rankings. Despite the obvious issues the biggest one I have is the fact that players seem to be selected to play on their tour based on notoriety. Case in point Hennie du Plessis. After 3 events in LIV he was 6th in money and 9th in their order of merit. He was cut for the fourth tournament to make way for the new batch of players. Makes the order of merit, seem somewhat meritless doesn't it?

How can the OWGR provide ranking points to a tour that claims to have merit when their players are awarded spots in their tournaments based on the merit of their popularity alone and not their performance?

Before you jump in their with sponsor exemptions etc on the PGA, their system is far more refined and merit based. Meant to truly grow the game and develop talent.

After however many tournaments thus far, I still fail to see how LIV is going to establish any sort of following in NA. I am not so convinced that Asia and Australia don't jump on board. But, then the question will be....does the investment generate a proper return? The Saudis don't seem to care either way. The player in LIV have made their choice....time for them to move on from the PGA....move on from OWGR....and unless they have a previous exemption....move on from the Majors.

im not defending LIV.

i was referring to the fact those tourneys invite the worlds best. WGC do not have cuts..their fields are under 70 in size. The final 2 PGA playoffs do not have cuts.

sponsor exemptions are usually tied to (1) young golfs to earn tour card, (2)well known injured players returning to play. Sponsor exemptions does get them money…they need to earn it by playing.

sure…PGA could do some sort of appearance fees to get the star players todo more tour locations beyond players, majors,WJCs, 3 higher purse events ( jacks, LA, Torrey pines). Beyond those, many top 40 might play a scare ring of 3 or so tournaments…..one is usually tied to their home town courose.

the thing is, if they know name players are going to play tourney X then that boosts ratings and will boost ad revenue which will create an increased purse.

 

[daver]

this was already believed. Players were give up front money to play which disincentives them to win things. It’s a de facto appearance fee. That loses the incentive in playing.

we see this many times in other sports when they sign a new contract after they grinder out the last season to get a better pay day.

It may have been already believed but it was denied by LIV as is renders the competition aspect of their "tour" meaningless. Even if you only watch sports because you gamble on them, this is significant.

These tournaments are glorified exhibition matches. Equating with them with regular PGA tour events, let alone majors, makes no sense.

I personally have no interest in most PGA events, only the majors and the Ryder Cup. The WGC events do not make a difference for me so LIV's business model (if they actually have one other than tossing out stupid money) holds no speical appeal for me a viewer.

 

[daver]

After however many tournaments thus far, I still fail to see how LIV is going to establish any sort of following in NA. I am not so convinced that Asia and Australia don't jump on board. But, then the question will be....does the investment generate a proper return? The Saudis don't seem to care either way. The player in LIV have made their choice....time for them to move on from the PGA....move on from OWGR....and unless they have a previous exemption....move on from the Majors.

That attention has been brought to the actual on-course product, the shortcomings of the PGA, the OWGR, is perhaps the whole point of this exercise; that the saudis can put money into potential investments and at the end of the day, morals and ethics are overruled by something or another.

I personally dislike the argument that LIV has obviously shown that the PGA had to make changes, maybe they did but a new competitor to the market with seemingly unlimited amounts of cash would likely force any business to make adjustments,

 

[Djp]

It may have been already believed but it was denied by LIV as is renders the competition aspect of their "tour" meaningless. Even if you only watch sports because you gamble on them, this is significant.

These tournaments are glorified exhibition matches. Equating with them with regular PGA tour events, let alone majors, makes no sense.

I personally have no interest in most PGA events, only the majors and the Ryder Cup. The WGC events do not make a difference for me so LIV's business model (if they actually have one other than tossing out stupid money) holds no speical appeal for me a viewer.

i agree it disinsetives them pitting it all out. Many coukd just coast.

i generally watch the majors and a few of the other bigger events.

im not a big fan of match player style of playing. Match play changes approach on how to play If you are behind.

i think an option is outside of the majors/ big events if they did do some sort of small appearance fee structure to the star players that doesn’t count in standings could improve the other secondary tournaments. I’m taking $25K-$75K per player with a higher amount if they make the cut but don’t finish say in top 20.

another factor here is schedule rotation

if you think about the tour schedule….players, thrn 2 weeks is match pkay, thrn 2 weeks is masters, thrn about 5 weeks is PGA, 2 weeks is Jacks, 2 weeks is us open, 4-5 weeks later is the British. Being stuck in the middle of those ducks royalty. for example you have the Canadian open the week before. The only top 50 that play are those that are Canadian, those attached to Canada somehow. It would be better if say they moved that to a better spot like 2 weeks after the us open. Tournament is Detroit is a dead zone point. Have this rotate to better times so they get a much better crowd of players.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Man how ironic.
Golfers are the bad guys for taking money from a brutal dictatorship.... but our politicians receive no blame for gifting them all of their military infrastructure for kickbacks? Not to mention our president is currently sucking the toe of their dictator for more oil...

But yeah the golfers are the bad guys.

The oddest part of this take is the notion that politicians, of all people, aren't viewed as bad guys and receive no blame.

 

[daver]

The oddest part of this take is the notion that politicians, of all people, aren't viewed as bad guys and receive no blame.

The oddest part of your take is that noone is making a claim that golfers should try to emulate politicians and do the "right thing".

Both LIV golfers and politicians can be the "bad guys".

 

[Arthur Morgan]

and the bad boys of Golf found a TV deal with FOX. I forget how many said this would never happen. lol
in my view the PGA have acted like a bunch of big babies throughout all of this especially Rory.

one day we may see a PGA vs LIV Open

 

[daver]

and the bad boys of Golf found a TV deal with FOX. I forget how many said this would never happen. lol
in my view the PGA have acted like a bunch of big babies throughout all of this especially Rory.

one day we may see a PGA vs LIV Open

LIV Golf will reportedly pay Fox Sports to air tournaments

LIV Golf has pushed back on reports that it was nearing a deal to pay Fox Sports for a broadcast deal in the United States.

ca.sports.yahoo.com

Easy to "find" a TV deal when you are paying the network and not the other way around. More of " if you throw enough money around you can buy anything" mentality.

Keep waving that LIV flag though. How much are the Saudis paying you?