PGA and LIV Golf rivalry begins (and ends, merger announced in June, 2023)

[Flukeshot]

Kind of surprised I could not find a thread on this.

LIV players suspended from the PGA

While I'm not a golf fan I am always interested in the business of sports. We saw an attempted break away to create a European Football Super League. We've seen one off contracts to lure players into lesser leagues in various sports.

Golf actually seems like a very logical sport to create a break away competition. I like that they put a twist on it making it a team event. The PGA has gone on the offensive by suspending any players joining the LIV.

Leads me to some thoughts/questions:

• Can the LIV net a profit and where is their revenue going to come from? (We know there is endless deep pockets funding this venture but can the balance sheets work out?)
• Will Golf fans watch the LIV over the PGA when there are conflicting events?
• The roster of players is improving is it legitimate enough already?
• What other sports could see a viable rival league formed?
• Hockey seems like it would be very low on the list as it is less "Worldly" than other sports

Click to read more...

 

[Voight]

1) At the start probably not but if it gains steam theres always TV deals and the like to bring in revenue, might be hard to make a profit tho with some of these payouts they are giving guys to join
2) At the start maybe but it really depends on the person. Out of the guys who joined LIV none are really guys I pay attention too. As of now I don't see enough names there to sway people unless you really like Mickleson and Johnson.
3) Not really. Most of the guys who joined were ranked below the top 30, i think the majority were in the 50-100 range. Even with DJ, Mickelson and DeChambeau joining all the big names of the sport are still in the PGA Tour. Its legitimate in the sense you have popular/well known guys in the league.
4) Its hard to say. Even the "youngest" pro NA league is now 75 years old. Feel like rival leagues can only be formed in team sports if its competing against a league thats more on the fledgling than established side. I.E. its much easier to have a golfer switch tours/leagues vs a team with a bunch of players and staff that is also tied to an existing league.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

LIV won’t be profitable for quite a while but they can afford to take on losses. As long as Saudis are willing to.

 

[Roadrage]

LIV won’t be profitable for quite a while but they can afford to take on losses. As long as Saudis are willing to.

It'll be a massive bonus if LIV is profitable within the next 5 years. I doubt that's the goal at the moment though for starting LIV.

 

[IU Hawks fan]

They don't care about making money, that's not what sportswashing is about.

 

[PCSPounder]

They don't care about making money, that's not what sportswashing is about.

This.

I’ll put it this way… there’s zero promotion in Portland for the next event, being held near here at Pumpkin Ridge. I didn’t even know about this until last week.

 

[Deep Blue Metallic]

This.

I’ll put it this way… there’s zero promotion in Portland for the next event, being held near here at Pumpkin Ridge. I didn’t even know about this until last week.

I've seen YouTube ads for it, but that's all.

 

[Eyeseeing]

I can’t see Americans or American networks supporting this.
I think this is short lived 1-2 seasons

 

[Fatass]

LIV won’t be profitable for quite a while but they can afford to take on losses. As long as Saudis are willing to.

Why are the Saudi backers of the LIV tour doing this? What do they get from it?

 

[IU Hawks fan]

Why are the Saudi backers of the LIV tour doing this? What do they get from it?

Sportswashing - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Fatass]

Sportswashing - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thanks. Is this like what the Chinese government is doing through their connections with the NBA? Washing, or laundering, their years of abuses and atrocities through connection to a reputable sport?

 

[AcerComputer]

Seems like the mainstream sports networks are carry water for the PGA tour and running semi-propaganda videos to sort damage the reputation of the New LIV Golf Tour. I think the LIV tour is great for Golf, and could have work side-by-side with the PGA. The tour members have more power then they even realize and the PGA tour is afraid, as they see what is coming. Seems like a no brainer to me to join the LIV tour, and the PGA will start begging players to come back before you know it. If you are a lower ranked Tour member you're chances of winning on the LIV tour are much higher than winning on the PGA, and the payouts are much higher on LIV not to mention guaranteed cashes for playing each event. Also being an early adapter will also allow you to get some of that bonus money to join the league, which may not be there in next year or beyond.

LIV won’t be profitable for quite a while but they can afford to take on losses. As long as Saudis are willing to.

It's called a Market penetration ...

Market penetration - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[IU Hawks fan]

Thanks. Is this like what the Chinese government is doing through their connections with the NBA? Washing, or laundering, their years of abuses and atrocities through connection to a reputable sport?

I'm not up with what China does with the NBA, but I would imagine yes.

Some other examples:
* Man City, PSG, and now Newcastle being owned by oil states
* Qatar hosting the World Cup, which they won the rights to through bribes
* Saudi Arabia has an F1 team
* Saudi National, golf tournament on the Asian Tour

 

[PCSPounder]

China boycotted the NBA because the league didn’t discipline a Houston Rockets executive for his support of Hong Kong protests.

But they stopped their boycott. Which says something.

Yeah, China is trying to sportswash. But they also can’t quite quit that which they unsuccessfully target.

Check out where LIV will finish their tour this year.

 

[IU Hawks fan]

 

[waitin425]

Without fully understanding the political/moral decision that this appears to be involving the Saudi's I will stay away from that talk and focus on my perspective as a fan. I don't know enough about Human rights, sportwashing or whatever.

#1 - This is all about the money for the players. Growing the game seems like a bit of a ridiculous statement. It waters down the product and is dividing the worlds best players into two factions.

#2 - I don't blame the players for wanting a secure paycheque. Case in point is Brooks. The guy has been battling injuries. The guaranteed money is too much to pass up, considering his earning potential is shrinking on the PGA tour.

#3 - LIV, regardless of who signs, does NOT interest me in the slightest. I checked out a bit of the first event on Youtube and the broadcast lacked that extra spark you get from watching the PGA tour.

#4 - Sure, the Saudi's have an endless pocket of money, but I do not see this tour surviving unless they make changes to the format. Even if they sign Tiger, Rory, JT, Speith and the rest of Golf's elite, the format will still suck. 54 holes, no cut line, Shotgun start (lol), those ridiculous teams, are all just stupid.

***I know the PGA just announced 8 tournaments with no cut line, but the cut line is essentially the Fedex cup standings...something totally different than the exhibition LIV is putting on*****

#5 - Majors, are going to be a problem for LIV members. If they don't get voted into OWGR system, than many of their players will not earn spots into future Majors. It will perpetuate the meaninglessness of the LIV golf events. They can try to fabricate some history or huge money events, or whatever they want, but golf is a traditionalist sport, and without the tie in to the Majors, LIV will mean much less. Add to that, I really think playing in the format that LIV promotes and the few tournaments a year, will hurt the rhythm of players like DJ and Brooks that have exemptions for the Majors. They will then struggle at Majors, perpetuating the narrative of the pro PGA crowd that the LIV has inferior golfers.

#6 - in order to truly shake any monkey off its back, LIV needs a legitimate superstar to win a Major and get players talking. Maybe that young Thai kid, or Piot can sneak in there and win a Major, become the next big thing. That would be what could get LIV over the top. Phil should be playing the senior circuit, DJ is on the downswing, Bryson is a freakshow long drive hitter, Brooks doesn't particularly care for the sport, Reed is a douchebag, Sergio is too pouty, Poulter wears funny pants, McDowell is a cool guy at the end of his career, Louis, Charl, whatever....not enough to get me fired up.

#7 - I give it two years...in two years, some of the more competitive players will be on the outside looking in at Majors. They will be losing sponsorship money. There will be rumblings of a return to the PGA. Two full years and this thing folds and Greg Norman is fired into the sun.

Those are my 7 cents on the LIV.

 

[Deep Blue Metallic]

The PGA played their hand exceedingly poorly.

Suddenly they find money for 8 LIV-style events next fall. Talk about reactive.

LIV has signed some big names, but no current top-10 guys, only 2 top-20 ranked players (Johnson #16, Anser #20), and 4 top-30 players (add Oosthuizen #23 and DeChambeau #30). If they manage to sign any top-10 players, i.e. legitimate threats to consistently be atop the leader boards at PGA events, I don't see how the PGA will have any choice but to rescind their LIV player ban. Another embarrassment waiting to happen.

Appeals to tradition and shunning Saudi "dirty money" are fine, but in the final analysis money speaks far louder. The PGA didn't take the LIV threat seriously enough soon enough, and now they're on the back foot trying to fend off a significant challenge.

The PGA's best move at this point would be to convince the organizers of the 3 major events they don't control - Masters, US Open, British Open - to ban LIV players. Good luck with that.

 

[IU Hawks fan]

The PGA played their hand exceedingly poorly.

Suddenly they find money for 8 LIV-style events next fall. Talk about reactive.

LIV has signed some big names, but no current top-10 guys, only 2 top-20 ranked players (Johnson #16, Anser #20), and 4 top-30 players (add Oosthuizen #23 and DeChambeau #30). If they manage to sign any top-10 players, i.e. legitimate threats to consistently be atop the leader boards at PGA events, I don't see how the PGA will have any choice but to rescind their LIV player ban. Another embarrassment waiting to happen.

Appeals to tradition and shunning Saudi "dirty money" are fine, but in the final analysis money speaks far louder. The PGA didn't take the LIV threat seriously enough soon enough, and now they're on the back foot trying to fend off a significant challenge.

The PGA's best move at this point would be to convince the organizers of the 3 major events they don't control - Masters, US Open, British Open - to ban LIV players. Good luck with that.

The PGA Tour is not part of the PGA of America. They're 2 entirely different entities, that split up over 50 years ago.

It's 4 different major organizers.

 

[Deep Blue Metallic]

The PGA Tour is not part of the PGA of America. They're 2 entirely different entities, that split up over 50 years ago.

It's 4 different major organizers.

Thanks.

So, to clarify ... the PGA Championship is run by the PGAA, and the regular PGA Tour (i.e. excluding Masters, US Open, PGAC, plus the British Open) is run by the PGA?

 

[Reaser]

Thanks.

So, to clarify ... the PGA Championship is run by the PGAA, and the regular PGA Tour (i.e. excluding Masters, US Open, PGAC, plus the British Open) is run by the PGA?

Yes, the PGA Tour schedules/organizes the other 40 or so weekends a year. All the stuff that isn't organized by others -- e. g. the four majors and Ryder Cup.

The Players Championship and FedEx Cup are the PGA's major events that they run.

 

[waitin425]

Thanks.

So, to clarify ... the PGA Championship is run by the PGAA, and the regular PGA Tour (i.e. excluding Masters, US Open, PGAC, plus the British Open) is run by the PGA?

Yes that is correct. The exemptions into the majors factors heavily on the Official World Golf Rankings (OWGR). After players with exemptions get into the tournaments (ie. past masters champions automatic for Masters) many of the tournaments entry is based on the OWGR.

AS of right now the OWGR is made up of a board including several members including the PGA Tour, DP World Tour (former European), USGA, R and A, etc . LIV wants their events to qualify towards the OWGR. It has to be voted on by the OWGR board before being accepted. If that happens, LIV passes their next big hurdle in becoming a legit threat to the PGA. If they don't get past the OWGR board, and their events don't qualify for rankings, then guys who have never won a major (Gooch, Ancer, etc) can see bye to their dreams of winning the Claret Jug or Green Jacket. And the major winners that they have poached all have varying limits on their exemptions depending on when and what Major they won.

So, the PGA won't have to convince the majors of nothing. They need to convince the rest of the board members of the OWGR not to count LIV events towards the rankings.

That argument should be easy, considering all of the other tours are based on "tournament golf". By tournament golf I mean 4 rounds, cut lines, NO appearance fees. LIV golf is not tournament golf as we know it, and they will have a very difficult time convincing the current golf establishment of their merit.

Some of LIV's moderate players will have to enter qualifying tournaments for the Open and US open.

 

[IU Hawks fan]

Thanks.

So, to clarify ... the PGA Championship is run by the PGAA, and the regular PGA Tour (i.e. excluding Masters, US Open, PGAC, plus the British Open) is run by the PGA?

The PGA only runs the PGA Championship.

They primarily deal with club professionals.

 

[Fixxer]

First of all, I'm not really a golf fan, so that that into account on what I will be saying.

I usually can't watch golf. I don't like it. I was a fan of Tiger Woods back in the day, Mickelson, but I would see highlights and that's it.

Anyway, I love Liv Golf!

I'm watching Round 2 in Portland, live, from their YouTube channel. I'm already a big fan. They made a golf fan out of me. I like the concept and how they play.

I don't care what people say about the league. Some even talk about dirty money. I mean, I don't know if dirty money is even a thing and here's why. Money comes from banks and governments, so how can money be dirtier than this. LOL --- Ok anyway, Liv Golf is very entertaining!

Liv Golf YouTube Channel

 

[Fixxer]

Live -

Final Round | LIV Golf Invitational Portland​

Have to watch directly on YouTube

 

[Voight]

First of all, I'm not really a golf fan, so that that into account on what I will be saying.

I usually can't watch golf. I don't like it. I was a fan of Tiger Woods back in the day, Mickelson, but I would see highlights and that's it.

Anyway, I love Liv Golf!

I'm watching Round 2 in Portland, live, from their YouTube channel. I'm already a big fan. They made a golf fan out of me. I like the concept and how they play.

I don't care what people say about the league. Some even talk about dirty money. I mean, I don't know if dirty money is even a thing and here's why. Money comes from banks and governments, so how can money be dirtier than this. LOL --- Ok anyway, Liv Golf is very entertaining!

Liv Golf YouTube Channel

This doesn't surprise me; LIV has been able to recruit some good players.


People will complain about said dirty money yet have no problem buying gas imported from SA.